Saintsational Fan Forum - A passionate community of St Kilda Football Club fans discussing news, history, players, trade rumours, results, AFL stats and more.
Eastern wrote:I see him as a 'High Risk-High Reward' type of player. There is no doubting his ability, but as many have pointed out he has had plenty of issues with his body, not to mention his depression. There is also the issue of whether he is motivated, or even wants to resume his career A lot to weigh up for us or anyone looking at him !!
enough is enough...no more drunks, rapists, drug addicts, morons, rejects, retirees or head cases.....recruit kids....and more kids...
you can control depression...you can't cure it.....
I tend to agree, that it is a risk.
The last sentence is iteresting, and very true. But if it can be controlled, would it be any different to say McCartin and his Type A diabetes? That can be controlled but not cured.
Mental illness should not be looked upon any different to other illnesses especially if it can be controlled properly.
In saying that, why would he want to come to St.Kilda? Surely he would get picked up by Melbourne if he wanted to come back. And how playing with the Saints next year help his depression?
Moods wrote:Too risky. We've taken that many gambles in the last 6-7 years on players, and as far as I can tell only one has paid off (Gardner) and even he took awhile, and never returned to AA form or close to it.
I wish him all the best in his battle for depression but I'm with Stinger on this one.
If he comes via PSD there is no risk. It's a win win situation. If it doesn't work out well so be it. It's just one spot on the list and a bit of cash we actually need to use somewhere.
Bunk_Moreland wrote:
I tend to agree, that it is a risk.
The last sentence is iteresting, and very true. But if it can be controlled, would it be any different to say McCartin and his Type A diabetes? That can be controlled but not cured.
Mental illness should not be looked upon any different to other illnesses especially if it can be controlled properly.
In saying that, why would he want to come to St.Kilda? Surely he would get picked up by Melbourne if he wanted to come back. And how playing with the Saints next year help his depression?
They certainly aint helping mine.
I suppose where it's different is that we can potentially make Clark's condition worse by our actions.
For example, if we weren't selecting him in the seniors though he thought he deserved it. Or if things weren't working out and we had to delist him. That could lead to his problems once again occuring or spiralling out of control. And if that happened and he had to leave the club we would own some of those problems for the rest of his life. Same as if we had taken on Cousins and then had to cut him down the track due to his problems etc. It's far too easy to simply say we can pick these guys up and simply delist them if it doesn't work out.
That may sound harsh, and it may sound unlikely. But to me that's the reality of the situation.
I've an open mind about this one. I remember being highly sceptical of the decision to recruit Michael Gardiner in 2008, and that project yielded us plenty of positives. On the other hand, there was Andrew Lovett............. so maybe we're best to stick with recruiting the best young kids we can get our mitts on! An interesting and thought provoking post though.
Bunk_Moreland wrote:
I tend to agree, that it is a risk.
The last sentence is iteresting, and very true. But if it can be controlled, would it be any different to say McCartin and his Type A diabetes? That can be controlled but not cured.
Mental illness should not be looked upon any different to other illnesses especially if it can be controlled properly.
In saying that, why would he want to come to St.Kilda? Surely he would get picked up by Melbourne if he wanted to come back. And how playing with the Saints next year help his depression?
They certainly aint helping mine.
I suppose where it's different is that we can potentially make Clark's condition worse by our actions.
For example, if we weren't selecting him in the seniors though he thought he deserved it. Or if things weren't working out and we had to delist him. That could lead to his problems once again occuring or spiralling out of control. And if that happened and he had to leave the club we would own some of those problems for the rest of his life. Same as if we had taken on Cousins and then had to cut him down the track due to his problems etc. It's far too easy to simply say we can pick these guys up and simply delist them if it doesn't work out.
That may sound harsh, and it may sound unlikely. But to me that's the reality of the situation.
What you say is true, but it cannot realistically be a consideration - not in football and not in most things.
You get to a point where you need to trust the player's own judgment and if they believe that they can withstand the rigours of the system (which inevitably entails injury, poor form etc.) then the club need not be overly pious in thinking about what might happen to him in the long run. That should not be confused with us doing due diligence on whether we believe he is currently sufficiently healthy.
If everyone adopted the attitude you describe, then people would avoid forming relationships with such people out of fear that the relationship will go sour and worsen the condition. Companies might not employ such people for the same reasons.
So if the club believes he's good to go, and Clarke says he's good to go, we don't need to start getting into the what-ifs about his life post football if we land up delisting him.
Eastern wrote:I see him as a 'High Risk-High Reward' type of player. There is no doubting his ability, but as many have pointed out he has had plenty of issues with his body, not to mention his depression. There is also the issue of whether he is motivated, or even wants to resume his career A lot to weigh up for us or anyone looking at him !!
enough is enough...no more drunks, rapists, drug addicts, morons, rejects, retirees or head cases.....recruit kids....and more kids...
you can control depression...you can't cure it.....
How can you possible relate depression or anxiety with rape?.. I'd hazard a guess there is an enormous % of current AFL players, very good, consistent ones, who are struggling, but managing such mental issues.
And wasn't Jack Darling a 'drunk head case', hence him slipping in the draft?.. Only mention it because you've state you would have picked him. Goes against what you just wrote.
I just hope this young guy gets well. If by returning to the cauldron of AFL football and making a fist of it is seen as success then I wish him just that!
Moods wrote:Too risky. We've taken that many gambles in the last 6-7 years on players, and as far as I can tell only one has paid off (Gardner) and even he took awhile, and never returned to AA form or close to it.
I wish him all the best in his battle for depression but I'm with Stinger on this one.
If he comes via PSD there is no risk. It's a win win situation. If it doesn't work out well so be it. It's just one spot on the list and a bit of cash we actually need to use somewhere.
A spot on the list is risking something though
We have about 14 list cloggers as it is. Lets just use Ray for example. we can sign him and he plays roughly 10 games next season and does ok but is gone at the end of the year. We still dont win a game because of Ray. The option is to delist him for a spot for Clark. 2 things can happen. he doesnt play so we are 10 games short but still lose anyway or he plays and does as well as he did at melbourne. We syill dont win games because we arent good enough but its the follow years when the younger guys get experience that he comes into his own. With so many list cloggers and most likely finishing last either way its certainly worth the risk even if he doesnt play. As for depression its like all illness and injuries. Only a risk if you dont take your medication just as its a risk coming back from injury if you dont rehab as good as you should.
stinger wrote:
you can control depression...you can't cure it.....
Coming from a mental health clinician with a masters degree and 10years experience... This is an incredibly ignorant post
...stop embarresing yourself.....i am more than familiar with depression......from a professional standpoint
of over twenty years.....as well as having close relatives with the illness.....
we are not taliking about such things as post natal depression...which of course can be cured....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Bunk_Moreland wrote:
I tend to agree, that it is a risk.
The last sentence is iteresting, and very true. But if it can be controlled, would it be any different to say McCartin and his Type A diabetes? That can be controlled but not cured.
Mental illness should not be looked upon any different to other illnesses especially if it can be controlled properly.
In saying that, why would he want to come to St.Kilda? Surely he would get picked up by Melbourne if he wanted to come back. And how playing with the Saints next year help his depression?
They certainly aint helping mine.
I suppose where it's different is that we can potentially make Clark's condition worse by our actions.
For example, if we weren't selecting him in the seniors though he thought he deserved it. Or if things weren't working out and we had to delist him. That could lead to his problems once again occuring or spiralling out of control. And if that happened and he had to leave the club we would own some of those problems for the rest of his life. Same as if we had taken on Cousins and then had to cut him down the track due to his problems etc. It's far too easy to simply say we can pick these guys up and simply delist them if it doesn't work out.
That may sound harsh, and it may sound unlikely. But to me that's the reality of the situation.
Eastern wrote:I see him as a 'High Risk-High Reward' type of player. There is no doubting his ability, but as many have pointed out he has had plenty of issues with his body, not to mention his depression. There is also the issue of whether he is motivated, or even wants to resume his career A lot to weigh up for us or anyone looking at him !!
enough is enough...no more drunks, rapists, drug addicts, morons, rejects, retirees or head cases.....recruit kids....and more kids...
you can control depression...you can't cure it.....
How can you possible relate depression or anxiety with rape?.. I'd hazard a guess there is an enormous % of current AFL players, very good, consistent ones, who are struggling, but managing such mental issues.
And wasn't Jack Darling a 'drunk head case', hence him slipping in the draft?.. Only mention it because you've state you would have picked him. Goes against what you just wrote.
no that's rubbish.....jack darling had some bad publicity...put out by the west ..to try and warn the southern state clubs off him...it was a red herring...and many on here said as much at the time...but it obviously worked....st trav wasn't fooled ..told us so at the time....
Last edited by stinger on Fri 11 Jul 2014 1:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
stinger wrote:
you can control depression...you can't cure it.....
Coming from a mental health clinician with a masters degree and 10years experience... This is an incredibly ignorant post
...stop embarresing yourself.....i am more than familiar with depression......from a professional standpoint
of over twenty years.....as well as having close relatives with the illness.....
we are not taliking about such things as post natal depression...which of course can be cured....
Incredibly ignorant and arrogant post.
If you don't understand the complexities of mental illness keep it to yourself, it's people spouting nonsense like this that creates a stigma which further harms the individuals suffering from these conditions.
The developments that have been made over the last decade have been phenomenal and your comments would have been outdated even before then
ROBERT HARVEY A.K.A The Great Man, Banger, Harves, Ol' Man River...
384 games, 4 B&F's, 3 EJ Whitten Medals, St.Kilda Captain, 2 Time Brownlow Medalist, 8 Time All Australian, 2nd Highest Brownlow votes poller.... The greatest of ALL TIME!!
Can he even nominate for the draft given that he isnt on any list in any comp ? .. and if the answer is yes, why wouldn't he nominate for the main draft where everyone can have a go at picking him up.
This will probably bite me on the backside, but I dont think we will ever see him make an AFL comeback.
“If you want the rainbow you gotta put up with rain” Dolly Parton
( God help me)
