Administration Forum Rules

[BackFromUSA]

Looks like there is no need for me to prepare a PDF - although the filing suggestion was quite creatively worded.

POQ - I am sincerely sorry that you are so obviously upset at being connected with Cairnsman and my perception of your relationship on Saintsational.

Anyway - I am going to sign out from this discussion and go read the fan forum.

NOTE to all - I am not going to personally moderate this thread as it would be a conflict of interest and I shall leave it to the other mods to get a consensus on the various reports made. I am happy with whatever they decide.

[Dave McNamara]

When Saintsational first started the speed at which it grew OUTSTRIPPED the official St.Kilda site ... leading a very interesting phone call where a certain administrator rang ... oh I can't tell that story without breaking confidences ... DAMN IT. But the club loved this place which is why coach, president and others contributed (even after they were not allowed to) and why John B came and was our guest speaker at the chinese dinner fundraiser and why club donated the signed merch to auction. As for the writers ... yes we have a talented bunch which is why I think we could get some great wensite content going on the .com

Thanks Simon, sounded like a fun place.

So what brought that all undone? And if resurrected, why couldn't it be a part of the main site (as I assume it was?) once again?

[asiu]

i'm not upset at or with my connection with Cairnsy.
i was deeply disturbed at your expressed perception of that relationship.

untruths are very very dangerous ... especially in the modern world of pencil pushers
over zealous admin types & proponents of political propaganda.

why have u given up on assembling 36 pages so easily ?
... u said u would and if you couldnt you would apologise.

get the evidence and i'll give u an email address for your pdf.
... dont get the evidence ='s a fair dinkum apology.

enough already of this less than authentic communication game u are playing.
Please.

[Cairnsman]

My contact at that time, before and after I was a moderator (at that time) were the site administrator Battye and his co-administrator HSVKing. I did not feel it was appropriate to deal directly with Damien at that stage (despite having direct access) as my suggestions were more appropriately placed with the Administration he had charged to look after Saintsational. I respected the fact that they were charged with the responsibility and I in no way circumvented that hierarchy at any time. They will testify to that.


First of all it was not an "announcement". It was a suggestion made to garner support andf feedback. I took all feedback but it was obvious to me that you would never allow it. I never claimed at the time that I had been in contact with Damien. The fact is I diod not contact Damien until I was appointed administrator and only after I had dealt with family tragedy. And as an FYI I was not starting http://www.saintsational.com as it was already owned and administered by Damien / battye AND importantly had been active previously as a website in the early days - and as a news website it was very popular and the articles written by posters were either informative or hysterical. We went to forum only format after the website could not be sustained content wise. I felt / feel that resurrecting this website format with the ability to connect to facebook / twitter etc was a great path. You disagreed passionately. I gave up.

The PMs, threads and posts still existed. I am happy to open them up to full examination if you agree. Suffice to say I feel that I was hounded into submission.

I am certain that I made it clear that I was not necessarily opposed to your plans but argued that of equal importance next to the value created by the members was the sites independence from the AFL, club and any other external entities that may want to exert influence over the site. I am certain I offered the suggestion of putting something in place such as a constitution or some other mechanism that would then allow the site to deal with the AFL, club or other external entity in a way that clearly disclosed and protected said independence. I did not say we needed to avoid dealing with said external entities, just merely suggested putting in place something that protects one of the sites most valued commodities.

The technical issue were fixed within a month of me becoming an active moderator if you do not count the 5 - 6 weeks where I was mourning a personal loss. Even if you do count that period - it was done within 10 weeks. It is a completely different issue to "attracting new members" ... you are the one who objected to my outreach strategy. Interestingly I genuinely do not remember you ever suggesting how we could attract new members. Perhaps you can refresh my memory what your suggestions were?

Invite people with profiles to the site was one.

I agree that we would like more contributors. I disagree that we have made "little inroads" - with 19 genuine new members in one month AND some old posters coming back into the fold - the amount and quality of footy content has improved. Sometimes quality is better than quantity. However we definitely do need to have a new member outreach program.

As for your claim that the creation of the integrated website would be the death of saintsational.net - I fail to see how. Santsational.net would remain as a forum entry and would have the added benefit of gaining traffic through the website. Anyway - if you believe it would have killed the forum then you are entitled to that opinion. I disagree.

That claim was based on you diverting time and money away from fixing the problems with Saintsational.com first and I couldn't see the point in starting another website and not fixing the problems with SS first. I also was concerned that a commercial website with ties to the AFL/club would just trade of the SS name and build it's membership by diverting members away from SS.net, goes around a gain in circle and comes back to ownership and independence argument.

Also Byron I do wonder about the rights of the members based on the contribution they make. IMO it is the members that give the place it's value and standing on the social media landscape, it is the members that have built it's reputation. It is for that reason that I think there is a rightful claim to some sort of partnership and share ownership between Damien and the members.

That is a very interesting point of view. I ask these questions then:

- who owns BigFooty? The users and posters?
Big Interest Group
- who owns facebook? The users and posters?
Public Company
- who owns twitter? The users and posters?
Public Company
- who owns instagram? The users and posters?
Facebook.

All of these sites have T&Cs that you agree to before being granted membership. They make sure they can do whatever they like with your material once you agree to their T&Cs. Saintsational does not have the same contracts in place with its members.

I am not sure if I ever called anyone a nutjob (i stand corrected if I have) ... but I definitely have referred to those that abuse and bicker as "toxic" as they were killing the site. If you were offended then I assume that you feel you were included in that group. That is for you (not I) to judge. If you are offended on their behalf, then that is extremely nice of you. Anyway we have created the Animal Enclosure to allow that style of posting to exist and flourish ... AND I have never been dismissive - I have listened to ALL sides on every issue ... just because the cards don't fall your way does not mean that I or we have been dismissive. I serve the whole community, not 1 individual.

Now that is offensive and shows little regard for history. this place would not exist except for Damien and his father's funding of it for the first 3 or 4 years. The amount of work he put into building Saintsational was incredible. So powerful was this site that coaches and Presidents became contributors. The club and AFL was in complete awe. I don't want break confidentiality but there are stories that verify just how impressed these and other organisations were with what Damien built. If you somehow think that the contribution of posters whether talking about football or bickering among themselves is FAR GREATER than the contribution made by Damien, then you are simply wrong.

Well you could argue that because Damien took his eye of the ball that it lost its grounding. That claim also then supports my idea of bringing more people with profiles to the site to increase contributions. You know BFUSA your agenda against the toxic posters has made it sound like a class war at some stages. I fear that if you misread the situation and get so bogged down in being committing to a fatal concept then SS could be lost for good. Now it is one thing to create a life, but it is another to grow a life. SS has not grown into a 15 year old because of Damien, he may have created it, but the members helped grow it. Damien and its members should stand side by side in ownership and administration.


I hope that adequately answers each issue raised.

I look forward to hearing your constructive suggestions on how we can increase membership and contributions.

Personally I still believe that a news and opinion based website that allows us to integrate into facebook, twitter etc is the best way to help fans find this forum.

Come half way and I'll try and help you all I can and if you agree to that then that will mean offering as many constructive suggestions as I can. Now Simon I am sorry if I have not address everything above as I am really tired and still have some work to finish before lights out so better save some brain power. Having said that I will probably read this again and cover anything missed.

Simon

Simon

just awaiting completion of thoughts before responding ...[/quote]

Although BFUSA has signed out of this thread does that mean we will still get a response to this post. Byron maybe you can follow this up with BFUSA. I would do it myself but I'm not sure if he has me on ignore or not.

[plugger66]

Cairnsman surely you dont care as much as you are saying. Im on here more than anyone but I would happily leave if it annoyed me as much as it seems you. Its all fun and if it wasnt fun id be out of here.

[Cairnsman]

Cairnsman surely you dont care as much as you are saying. Im on here more than anyone but I would happily leave if it annoyed me as much as it seems you. Its all fun and if it wasnt fun id be out of here.

It's about contributing to the community...putting my hand up to hopefully ensure that SS survives and prospers as a site that is independently owned and operated by the community for generations to come. Cyber places like SS have similar historical and emotional value as bricks and mortar establishments. I'd hate to see this place commercialised and turned into some bland sterile AFL/club controlled product. I'd like to see it also gain more contributors.

[stinger]

Cairnsman surely you dont care as much as you are saying. Im on here more than anyone but I would happily leave if it annoyed me as much as it seems you. Its all fun and if it wasnt fun id be out of here.

It's about contributing to the community...putting my hand up to hopefully ensure that SS survives and prospers as a site that is independently owned and operated by the community for generations to come. Cyber places like SS have similar historical and emotional value as bricks and mortar establishments. I'd hate to see this place commercialised and turned into some bland sterile AFL/club controlled product. I'd like to see it also gain more contributors.

you are just driving people away mate.....ss is what it is....always has been and i hope will always remain the same......it's mods are unbiased and fair afaic.......hate to see how long i would last if you and guys like grumpy one get their way........out within the hour i would expect......some of the posts directed at the mods are outrageous, but they are in a bind and must accept what no one else should have to......you should realise that and back off

[GrumpyOne]

.....hate to see how long i would last if you and guys like grumpy one get their way........out within the hour i would expect

If you posted within the rules, you would have nothing to worry about.

[Cairnsman]

Cairnsman surely you dont care as much as you are saying. Im on here more than anyone but I would happily leave if it annoyed me as much as it seems you. Its all fun and if it wasnt fun id be out of here.

It's about contributing to the community...putting my hand up to hopefully ensure that SS survives and prospers as a site that is independently owned and operated by the community for generations to come. Cyber places like SS have similar historical and emotional value as bricks and mortar establishments. I'd hate to see this place commercialised and turned into some bland sterile AFL/club controlled product. I'd like to see it also gain more contributors.

you are just driving people away mate.....ss is what it is....always has been and i hope will always remain the same......it's mods are unbiased and fair afaic.......hate to see how long i would last if you and guys like grumpy one get their way........out within the hour i would expect......some of the posts directed at the mods are outrageous, but they are in a bind and must accept what no one else should have to......you should realise that and back off

Hey Stinger you are so way off the mark me ole mate, what I am on about is the complete opposite to your claim. Why would I want to get rid of you when I firmly believe that it is posters like you that give SS it's value. I suspect you may not be 100% across the history of the discussion.

[asiu]

can someone please explain to me how 'Rules'
seem to be everyones panacea for worthwhile
communication.

lots of yack about where the fences are on the paddock.

people talkn their truth about shyte
doesnt require more fencing
but bigger hearts.

farmers 'n controllers want better fencing
real people 'n artists need bigger paddocks.

[asiu]

Stinger has his 'woe is me' story on cut 'n paste availability.
... progressive communication aint his strong suit Cairnsy.
... don't feel hurt ...u'll get used to it.

[stinger]

Cairnsman surely you dont care as much as you are saying. Im on here more than anyone but I would happily leave if it annoyed me as much as it seems you. Its all fun and if it wasnt fun id be out of here.

It's about contributing to the community...putting my hand up to hopefully ensure that SS survives and prospers as a site that is independently owned and operated by the community for generations to come. Cyber places like SS have similar historical and emotional value as bricks and mortar establishments. I'd hate to see this place commercialised and turned into some bland sterile AFL/club controlled product. I'd like to see it also gain more contributors.

you are just driving people away mate.....ss is what it is....always has been and i hope will always remain the same......it's mods are unbiased and fair afaic.......hate to see how long i would last if you and guys like grumpy one get their way........out within the hour i would expect......some of the posts directed at the mods are outrageous, but they are in a bind and must accept what no one else should have to......you should realise that and back off

Hey Stinger you are so way off the mark me ole mate, what I am on about is the complete opposite to your claim. Why would I want to get rid of you when I firmly believe that it is posters like you that give SS it's value. I suspect you may not be 100% across the history of the discussion.

i'm across the discussion mate...read every post...also i'm across the history of all the agitators seeking to wrest control of ss away from damien and the people who he has delegated to run the site for him.......been here from the start, and they have been doing it for years.......some, just because they tossed in a few cents and a used condom some years ago......

....actually met damien when he was handing out flyers for the site at the dome...way back when.. lovely young fella...his idea...his and his dad's money...his site afaic.......stick with what i say.....

...sure the site went to seed a bit when there was a lack of mods willing to spend time on here......a couple of real pain in the whatsits got away with murder....me included......

...don't like the company you are keeping on here though.....you might not want to ban me on sight...but several others would and have been agitating for my removal on a permanent basis for years......including posters who have contributed to this thread i see....

to my mind bfusa is trying to be civil to everybody...give them respect....pity that that isn't being returned in kind............

[st.byron]

people talkn their truth about shyte
doesnt require more fencing
but bigger hearts.

POQ, I don't know what you're trying to achieve because it seems to me you're being selective with communication of the heart.
On one hand you're asking for a more open and heartfelt forum, but on the other you continue to snipe at BFUSA, talk about him in derogatory fashion in the third person and generally bitch and moan. Stinger is another of your targets.

You've got some issues with site management and moderation, fair enough. But please, enough of the snide comments and belittling. It's not achieving anything but perpetuating bad blood.

Before you post stuff like,

"enough already of this less than authentic communication game u are playing."

and

"people talkn their truth about shyte
doesnt require more fencing
but bigger hearts."

and

" we need a big noter with an entertainment account .
where could we find one of them ?"

then I respectfully suggest a little mirror gazing about communication from a bigger heart before posting.

[st.byron]

Although BFUSA has signed out of this thread does that mean we will still get a response to this post. Byron maybe you can follow this up with BFUSA. I would do it myself but I'm not sure if he has me on ignore or not.

Will raise it with BFUSA.

[asiu]

How would u suggest i handle the constant
'slippery' posting coming at me from those two u mention ?

Dont see u pulling up Simon
with his two faced shyte.

[asiu]

How would u suggest i handle the constant
'slippery' posting coming at me from those two u mention ?

Dont see u pulling up Simon
with his two faced shyte.

What i wrote STANDS
... its a two way street not a parade of the big stick.

[Cairnsman]

Although BFUSA has signed out of this thread does that mean we will still get a response to this post. Byron maybe you can follow this up with BFUSA. I would do it myself but I'm not sure if he has me on ignore or not.

Will raise it with BFUSA.

Thanks Byron

[st.byron]

How would u suggest i handle the constant
'slippery' posting coming at me from those two u mention ?

Dont see u pulling up Simon
with his two faced shyte.

What i wrote STANDS
... its a two way street not a parade of the big stick.

POQ. I don't get this stuff from you. You're a smart dude. Not so long ago you told BFUSA to stick it where the sun don't shine and then in the next post you claimed you weren't telling him to shove it up his arse. WTF? If you want to make complaints about two faced-ness, then don't spin crap yourself. Be straight. When you do stuff like that, it reduces your credibility.

If you've got things that piss you off, let's have them out in the open clearly and plainly. Saying that BFUSA and Stinger are engaging in 'slippery posting' is another snide jab.
What's slippery?
What parade of a big stick?
What two faced s***?

Let's have it clear and plain and straight.

Ongoing bitching and snideness is pointless.

My role as a mod is to moderate to the rules. If people have issues with the way the forum is managed or moderated then let's have it out in the open, clear and plain and not via ongoing sniping, complaining and personal attacks.

[asiu]

had a quick glance at your post st byron.

i shall walk away now ... need some sun on my good self.

shall endevour to express myself with eloquence compassion and a lack of visciousness when i return.


(coz , most certainly , i'm at the visciousness level with my favourite frauds ... here 'n in 'real' life)

... and i shall endevour to be a good boy , a respectful boy , an encompassing boy ... when i return.

later.

[asiu]

dear st byron.

ok , lets start this game of thrones episode.

... been sitting on the injectors drug cheating thread 'n cant believe how a similar story line (imo) ,
though clothed differently , has played out on these boards over the past 12 months or so.

this is gunna be a big story ... and to be honest , i cant be bothered doing the work to tell it.

.but i will.

first things first though.

earlier in this thread , you invited Cairnsman into a discussion with YOU ,
and then stood back as our Supreme Leader came over the top with his 'ways'.

piss poor behaviour imo ... but we move on.

at this moment , in 'this' thread ... our SL has removed himself from participating in this thread AND
removed himself from moderating this thread.

so , i am having a conversation with YOU ,
about issues SL is central to.
(not Simon as an individual ... but the issues & methodologies employed by SL around these parts
... since his arrival as saviour of the people)

are we on the same page ?

[Cairnsman]

Byron did you get a response from BFUSA?

[BackFromUSA]

I did receive the PM from St.Byron on this but work and personal issues have prevented me from having enough time to properly respond until now.

See below my responses indicated by ==>

My contact at that time, before and after I was a moderator (at that time) were the site administrator Battye and his co-administrator HSVKing. I did not feel it was appropriate to deal directly with Damien at that stage (despite having direct access) as my suggestions were more appropriately placed with the Administration he had charged to look after Saintsational. I respected the fact that they were charged with the responsibility and I in no way circumvented that hierarchy at any time. They will testify to that.


First of all it was not an "announcement". It was a suggestion made to garner support andf feedback. I took all feedback but it was obvious to me that you would never allow it. I never claimed at the time that I had been in contact with Damien. The fact is I diod not contact Damien until I was appointed administrator and only after I had dealt with family tragedy. And as an FYI I was not starting http://www.saintsational.com as it was already owned and administered by Damien / battye AND importantly had been active previously as a website in the early days - and as a news website it was very popular and the articles written by posters were either informative or hysterical. We went to forum only format after the website could not be sustained content wise. I felt / feel that resurrecting this website format with the ability to connect to facebook / twitter etc was a great path. You disagreed passionately. I gave up.

The PMs, threads and posts still existed. I am happy to open them up to full examination if you agree. Suffice to say I feel that I was hounded into submission.

I am certain that I made it clear that I was not necessarily opposed to your plans but argued that of equal importance next to the value created by the members was the sites independence from the AFL, club and any other external entities that may want to exert influence over the site. I am certain I offered the suggestion of putting something in place such as a constitution or some other mechanism that would then allow the site to deal with the AFL, club or other external entity in a way that clearly disclosed and protected said independence. I did not say we needed to avoid dealing with said external entities, just merely suggested putting in place something that protects one of the sites most valued commodities.

==> you seemed VERY opposed to the plans
==> the site should have NO value - it is not for sale, nor should it be for sale
==> the site is independent from the club and AFL ... up until they decide to restrict us / or shut us down, as they have done with other forums and sites
==> we simply cannot protect this site from a shut down by the AFL but that would only do so if this site was somehow annoying the AFL in some way
==> I have offered on numerous occasions for you to draft a suitable constitution for consideration however it would have no bearing on actual ownership

The technical issue were fixed within a month of me becoming an active moderator if you do not count the 5 - 6 weeks where I was mourning a personal loss. Even if you do count that period - it was done within 10 weeks. It is a completely different issue to "attracting new members" ... you are the one who objected to my outreach strategy. Interestingly I genuinely do not remember you ever suggesting how we could attract new members. Perhaps you can refresh my memory what your suggestions were?

Invite people with profiles to the site was one.

==> as discussed, no individual with profile in their right mind would have come onto saintsational fan forum in the state it was in and expose themselves
==> The visit by Grant Thomas onto Saintsational was a perfect demonstration of why this strategy was not workable or sustainable back then
==> I had lined up several Saints loving media contributors to write one article per year (or more) for the .com website - but this was put on hold

I agree that we would like more contributors. I disagree that we have made "little inroads" - with 19 genuine new members in one month AND some old posters coming back into the fold - the amount and quality of footy content has improved. Sometimes quality is better than quantity. However we definitely do need to have a new member outreach program.

As for your claim that the creation of the integrated website would be the death of saintsational.net - I fail to see how. Santsational.net would remain as a forum entry and would have the added benefit of gaining traffic through the website. Anyway - if you believe it would have killed the forum then you are entitled to that opinion. I disagree.

That claim was based on you diverting time and money away from fixing the problems with Saintsational.com first and I couldn't see the point in starting another website and not fixing the problems with SS first. I also was concerned that a commercial website with ties to the AFL/club would just trade of the SS name and build it's membership by diverting members away from SS.net, goes around a gain in circle and comes back to ownership and independence argument.

==> the people involved in fixing the phpBB software issues were and always were different to the person (my employee) who would create the website
==> they are different skill sets ... similar to being worried that the bread and the milk shouldn't be produced at the same time so have the dairy farmer milk the cows first before allowing the baker to bake the bread
==> I never ever proposed a commercial website
==> I never ever proposed a website tied to the AFL / Club
==> The above two issues were your concerns but never what was proposed
==> However the website would have been a more friendly and protected way for people with profile to contribute articles
==> The intent was the direct opposite of what you were concerned about - it was an outreach program to bring new members to the forum
==> the mechanism was to use streaming of hashtags and other mechanisms on existing social media accounts (non Saintsational) as a central hub
==> Saintsational.net would be the website to go to if you wanted to see the latest tweet from a player, photos from fans, facebook updates from the club
==> And while you were there you could also see the latest 5 or 10 topics being discussed on Saintsational Fan Forum ...
==> I repeat there is ZERO commercial motivation to undertake this and I would sign a stat dec to that effect

Also Byron I do wonder about the rights of the members based on the contribution they make. IMO it is the members that give the place it's value and standing on the social media landscape, it is the members that have built it's reputation. It is for that reason that I think there is a rightful claim to some sort of partnership and share ownership between Damien and the members.

That is a very interesting point of view. I ask these questions then:

- who owns BigFooty? The users and posters?
Big Interest Group
- who owns facebook? The users and posters?
Public Company
- who owns twitter? The users and posters?
Public Company
- who owns instagram? The users and posters?
Facebook.

==> each of the above have ownership, then management and then users
==> users do not have a say in management decisions, however the owners do

All of these sites have T&Cs that you agree to before being granted membership. They make sure they can do whatever they like with your material once you agree to their T&Cs. Saintsational does not have the same contracts in place with its members.

==> unlike the above social media sites, Saintsational is NOT a commercial entity nor wants to be, nor will be for sale. It does not own nor does it seek to own the contribution of the posters. It does not take responsibility for the opinions of posters AND currently the ownership of each individual post remains with the actual poster. If we wanted to do something with the posts - for example use them on Saintsational.com website as the latest posts, then that term would need to be added into the current participation agreement and added to the current rules of the forum, but at this stage it is not necessary.

I am not sure if I ever called anyone a nutjob (i stand corrected if I have) ... but I definitely have referred to those that abuse and bicker as "toxic" as they were killing the site. If you were offended then I assume that you feel you were included in that group. That is for you (not I) to judge. If you are offended on their behalf, then that is extremely nice of you. Anyway we have created the Animal Enclosure to allow that style of posting to exist and flourish ... AND I have never been dismissive - I have listened to ALL sides on every issue ... just because the cards don't fall your way does not mean that I or we have been dismissive. I serve the whole community, not 1 individual.

Now that is offensive and shows little regard for history. this place would not exist except for Damien and his father's funding of it for the first 3 or 4 years. The amount of work he put into building Saintsational was incredible. So powerful was this site that coaches and Presidents became contributors. The club and AFL was in complete awe. I don't want break confidentiality but there are stories that verify just how impressed these and other organisations were with what Damien built. If you somehow think that the contribution of posters whether talking about football or bickering among themselves is FAR GREATER than the contribution made by Damien, then you are simply wrong.

Well you could argue that because Damien took his eye of the ball that it lost its grounding. That claim also then supports my idea of bringing more people with profiles to the site to increase contributions. You know BFUSA your agenda against the toxic posters has made it sound like a class war at some stages. I fear that if you misread the situation and get so bogged down in being committing to a fatal concept then SS could be lost for good. Now it is one thing to create a life, but it is another to grow a life. SS has not grown into a 15 year old because of Damien, he may have created it, but the members helped grow it. Damien and its members should stand side by side in ownership and administration.

==> Actually it was the previous admin that took their eye off the ball. It was their responsibility. Damien remained owner but admin was the management.
==> See above re people with profile being willing to open themselves up to the behaviour exhibited on this forum - by posting here - and to what benefit?
==> I am not at war - I am bringing a level of decency that had been lost, not because the rules did not exist, but because they were not enforced
==> The Saintsational Forum participation levels continue to grow with our numbers consistently 100+ on at a time each night - up again on even last month
===> edit at 9.27 pm - just checked and In total there are 122 users online :: 43 registered, 11 hidden and 68 guests
==> Some would argue that some members grew this site and some helped shrink this site, who grew it and who shrank it - is the past and not the future
==> The simple fact is Damien is owner, I am the manager and the members are widely canvassed for their opinions and contribution to changes

I hope that adequately answers each issue raised.

I look forward to hearing your constructive suggestions on how we can increase membership and contributions.

Personally I still believe that a news and opinion based website that allows us to integrate into facebook, twitter etc is the best way to help fans find this forum.

Come half way and I'll try and help you all I can and if you agree to that then that will mean offering as many constructive suggestions as I can. Now Simon I am sorry if I have not address everything above as I am really tired and still have some work to finish before lights out so better save some brain power. Having said that I will probably read this again and cover anything missed.

==> I am sorry that I do not know where half way actually is, because what you want in terms of democracy is not my decision, it is the decision of the owner, however I (and others) have outlined the multitude of problems associated with a democratic model involving anonymous internet identities. At best we can seek the opinion of the community and make changes that reflect the desires of the community. In the past year I have instigated changes to rules that I personally disagree with (especially the freedom of speech rules and abuse rules in relation to St.Kilda footballers) but the current rules reflect the community decisions and are moderated by me (and the other moderators) to the letter of the rules, whether we like it or not. That is a form of democracy.

==> I hope that answers all of the above adequately

Simon

Simon

just awaiting completion of thoughts before responding ...

Although BFUSA has signed out of this thread does that mean we will still get a response to this post. Byron maybe you can follow this up with BFUSA. I would do it myself but I'm not sure if he has me on ignore or not.[/quote]

[Cairnsman]

Thanks for the response BFUSA, I am really busy at the moment and probably can't respond today but I do intend to responding to some of your points shortly.

[st.byron]

Hey POQ,

Likewise have been fully engaged in other stuff with only a few glances at SS over the past days. Will come back to you soon.

[asiu]

this is fun.




tempo posting.