Potential Mature-Age Draftees

[plugger66]

So we may as well just write off the next three years?

We recruited Stephen Powell, Brett Voss, Trent Knobel, Fraser Gerhig, Heath Black, Luke Penny, Brent Guerra, Jason Gram, Barry Brooks, Steven Lawrence

The last time we rebuilt.

Im unsure if you actually read topics or anything actually. Firstly the first post on this topic was about state league players so I have no idea why yoy have even mentioned the above players. And I guess you are responding to me even though you refuse to quote or use names but when in this thread did I say we dont get older AFL players. I said we dont get older unproven state league players. Surely thats common sense. I suppose if I wanted that type you wouldnt.

And secondly the names you have mentioned for no reason at all werent even older AFL players. Just about every single one of them were of the age when recruited that they could have played well over 100 games as proven by many of them playing many more than 100 games.

Just one question that I again expect no answer. What have these names got to do with anything I have said in this thread?

[loris]

Chris Cain: midfielder who's 27 soon, mentioned across the years,

It would be a brave Saint recruiter to go for this bloke. If they misspelt his surname, adding an 's' at the end............................. knowing the Saints luck we would have the AFL trawling all over us for match-fixing............ tanking

[The Redeemer]

Scott Clouston continues to dominate the VFL culminated in a Victorian jumper.

He has been in communication with Saints management and will be taken early in the rookie draft

[plugger66]

Scott Clouston continues to dominate the VFL culminated in a Victorian jumper.

He has been in communication with Saints management and will be taken early in the rookie draft

If we had made a decision already on any player then the club has real issues. I doubt any player is locked in no matter what you have heard. he is 27 years old. No way.

[dragit]

Scott Clouston continues to dominate the VFL culminated in a Victorian jumper.

He has been in communication with Saints management and will be taken early in the rookie draft

28 next year… awesome.

[bergholt]

Scott Clouston continues to dominate the VFL culminated in a Victorian jumper.

He has been in communication with Saints management and will be taken early in the rookie draft

If we had made a decision already on any player then the club has real issues. I doubt any player is locked in no matter what you have heard. he is 27 years old. No way.

Pretty simple Maister replacement, isn't he? You could do worse for three or four years of taking the heat off Lee and whichever key forward we take this year.

[plugger66]

Scott Clouston continues to dominate the VFL culminated in a Victorian jumper.

He has been in communication with Saints management and will be taken early in the rookie draft

If we had made a decision already on any player then the club has real issues. I doubt any player is locked in no matter what you have heard. he is 27 years old. No way.

Pretty simple Maister replacement, isn't he? You could do worse for three or four years of taking the heat off Lee and whichever key forward we take this year.

Only if he is capable of walking straight into the side and having an impact. If a 28 year old unproven VFL player is taking the heat off a 3rd year 23 year old AFL player then that AFL isnt up to it. I dont think a club is going to put the best defender on the unproven 28 year old. And what happens if he doesnt make it. The club would look like fools. And one other thing, a rookie can only play if you get a LTI so he is with Sandy unless that happens.

We still will probably have Rooy as the experienced forward, dempster and Geary as the experienced back and maybe even Hayes, Joey and Steven as experienced mids. Not sure we need to risk picks on 28 year olds.

[bergholt]

Pretty simple Maister replacement, isn't he? You could do worse for three or four years of taking the heat off Lee and whichever key forward we take this year.

Only if he is capable of walking straight into the side and having an impact.

Maister was, he kicked three from four shots in his first game. I remember walking back through Yarra Park we thought he could be really useful in years to come. Quite possibly Clouston is similar.

If a 28 year old unproven VFL player is taking the heat off a 3rd year 23 year old AFL player then that AFL isnt up to it.

Lee looks to me like a second or third banana. That means he needs one or two other talls to take the heat off him. Put him in Sydney's side at the moment and he might look better than Sam Reid. Put Clouston or someone similar next to him and maybe he looks OK. Possibly similar with White at Sandy. I imagine if they sign Clouston then they'd have that sort of plan in mind. We need players to keep us competitive for the next few years and he might be one of them.

I dont think a club is going to put the best defender on the unproven 28 year old. And what happens if he doesnt make it. The club would look like fools.

Is that the biggest thing we worry about? We're going to win less than 5 games next year. We can't avoid looking like fools for a number of reasons. If there's a chance he might make it, and there's no-one else interesting at that pick in the rookie draft, then I still don't see why it's not worth a try.

And one other thing, a rookie can only play if you get a LTI so he is with Sandy unless that happens.

Right. But if this year's any guide then we won't have issues finding LTI spots.

We still will probably have Rooy as the experienced forward...

Probably. At some point his knee gives up and he becomes one of those LTI players. If that happens it'd be nice to have options for replacing him, rather than having to play White simply because we're out of bodies.

I see it as a direct choice between him (and others) and Maister. The coach obviously thinks that Beau's not up to it at AFL level and you won't get too many arguments on this board. But if you want a big body to play up forward and bash and crash around, it's much easier to replace Beau with another established state league player who's mid-age rather than a fragile kid or an expensive Patton-type. You don't think that role is necessary, that's fine. But if the coach/list managers do then someone like Clouston is an obvious option.

[CURLY]

Daniel Coghlan from Essendons VFL side would be ideal for us.

[plugger66]

Pretty simple Maister replacement, isn't he? You could do worse for three or four years of taking the heat off Lee and whichever key forward we take this year.

Only if he is capable of walking straight into the side and having an impact.

Maister was, he kicked three from four shots in his first game. I remember walking back through Yarra Park we thought he could be really useful in years to come. Quite possibly Clouston is similar.

If a 28 year old unproven VFL player is taking the heat off a 3rd year 23 year old AFL player then that AFL isnt up to it.

Lee looks to me like a second or third banana. That means he needs one or two other talls to take the heat off him. Put him in Sydney's side at the moment and he might look better than Sam Reid. Put Clouston or someone similar next to him and maybe he looks OK. Possibly similar with White at Sandy. I imagine if they sign Clouston then they'd have that sort of plan in mind. We need players to keep us competitive for the next few years and he might be one of them.

I dont think a club is going to put the best defender on the unproven 28 year old. And what happens if he doesnt make it. The club would look like fools.

Is that the biggest thing we worry about? We're going to win less than 5 games next year. We can't avoid looking like fools for a number of reasons. If there's a chance he might make it, and there's no-one else interesting at that pick in the rookie draft, then I still don't see why it's not worth a try.

And one other thing, a rookie can only play if you get a LTI so he is with Sandy unless that happens.

Right. But if this year's any guide then we won't have issues finding LTI spots.

We still will probably have Rooy as the experienced forward...

Probably. At some point his knee gives up and he becomes one of those LTI players. If that happens it'd be nice to have options for replacing him, rather than having to play White simply because we're out of bodies.

I see it as a direct choice between him (and others) and Maister. The coach obviously thinks that Beau's not up to it at AFL level and you won't get too many arguments on this board. But if you want a big body to play up forward and bash and crash around, it's much easier to replace Beau with another established state league player who's mid-age rather than a fragile kid or an expensive Patton-type. You don't think that role is necessary, that's fine. But if the coach/list managers do then someone like Clouston is an obvious option.

Not going to do the quote stuff like you. Take me forever but I will have a go at responding anyway. You mentioned Maister so we will use him as example. Firstly Maister was 25 when he started with us, this other guy mantioned will be nearly 28. Secondly at least maister had 4 years on an AFL list so we knew what we were getting. This guy is unproven at AFL and nearly 28 years of age. There is no proof he would keep us competative. If we really need another Maister type then lets get a 23 year old with some proven AFL experience. That shouldnt be to hard. Im not suggesting a champion so there would be many available. As for the rookie draft, yep we may have injuries but to draft someone basically expecting an injury so he could play is stupid at best. I dont see why any club in our position would want a VFL forward who is unproven at AFL who most importantly is 28 years old. Yep Goodes was drafted BY the WB but really has he helped the club achieve anything really? And maybe they needed experienced players in the back halfI still say we have Roo for that job and even the likes of Stanley will be in his six year next year. He is surely more experienced at the higher level than even a 28 year old. I was saying no to redrafting Saad so I cant really say yes to unproven 28 year old.

[bergholt]

Not going to do the quote stuff like you. Take me forever but I will have a go at responding anyway. You mentioned Maister so we will use him as example. Firstly Maister was 25 when he started with us, this other guy mantioned will be nearly 28. Secondly at least maister had 4 years on an AFL list so we knew what we were getting. This guy is unproven at AFL and nearly 28 years of age. There is no proof he would keep us competative. If we really need another Maister type then lets get a 23 year old with some proven AFL experience. That shouldnt be to hard. Im not suggesting a champion so there would be many available. As for the rookie draft, yep we may have injuries but to draft someone basically expecting an injury so he could play is stupid at best. I dont see why any club in our position would want a VFL forward who is unproven at AFL who most importantly is 28 years old. Yep Goodes was drafted BY the WB but really has he helped the club achieve anything really? And maybe they needed experienced players in the back halfI still say we have Roo for that job and even the likes of Stanley will be in his six year next year. He is surely more experienced at the higher level than even a 28 year old. I was saying no to redrafting Saad so I cant really say yes to unproven 28 year old.

Clouston had three or four years on Brisbane's list, so he knows what's expected in an AFL environment. Obviously there's no proof he'd be any good but I'm not sure how many players you could find who come with a guarantee. I don't know much about Clouston but he could obviously be a completely different type of player to Stanley, not sure how useful it is to compare them.

I just don't see the difference between a 23 year old and a 28 year old when you're picking players from the state league. Odds are that neither will last more than three or four years so what does it matter how old he is? Pick the one who can contribute best over the next few years as the team develops. If that's Clouston then I don't care about his age.

I agree with you on Saad, btw. That's because we know exactly what we're going to get from him, and in a developing team I just don't see the need for a specialist small forward who's never going to be a midfielder. Same applies to TDL.

[plugger66]

Not going to do the quote stuff like you. Take me forever but I will have a go at responding anyway. You mentioned Maister so we will use him as example. Firstly Maister was 25 when he started with us, this other guy mantioned will be nearly 28. Secondly at least maister had 4 years on an AFL list so we knew what we were getting. This guy is unproven at AFL and nearly 28 years of age. There is no proof he would keep us competative. If we really need another Maister type then lets get a 23 year old with some proven AFL experience. That shouldnt be to hard. Im not suggesting a champion so there would be many available. As for the rookie draft, yep we may have injuries but to draft someone basically expecting an injury so he could play is stupid at best. I dont see why any club in our position would want a VFL forward who is unproven at AFL who most importantly is 28 years old. Yep Goodes was drafted BY the WB but really has he helped the club achieve anything really? And maybe they needed experienced players in the back halfI still say we have Roo for that job and even the likes of Stanley will be in his six year next year. He is surely more experienced at the higher level than even a 28 year old. I was saying no to redrafting Saad so I cant really say yes to unproven 28 year old.

Clouston had three or four years on Brisbane's list, so he knows what's expected in an AFL environment. Obviously there's no proof he'd be any good but I'm not sure how many players you could find who come with a guarantee. I don't know much about Clouston but he could obviously be a completely different type of player to Stanley, not sure how useful it is to compare them.

I just don't see the difference between a 23 year old and a 28 year old when you're picking players from the state league. Odds are that neither will last more than three or four years so what does it matter how old he is? Pick the one who can contribute best over the next few years as the team develops. If that's Clouston then I don't care about his age.

I agree with you on Saad, btw. That's because we know exactly what we're going to get from him, and in a developing team I just don't see the need for a specialist small forward who's never going to be a midfielder. Same applies to TDL.

I did actually say a 23 year old with some AFL experience. I reckon those 5 years make a huge difference when recruiting a player. Firstly Im nearly sure you would give a 23 year old 2 years to see if he works out where as you couldnt possible give a 28 year old 2 years. Secondly if those both make it one can play up 150 games. The other probably couldnt play more than 50. And i wasnt comparing Stanley and Closton. I have never heard of the guy but what I was saying is we will have 2 very experienced forwards next season, if Stanley stays of course, so I dont see ned for a 28 year old to help out Lee who in his third year and 24 years of age shouldnt need help anyway.

[dragit]

Even with Saads drop in form, he kicked 45 goals from 29 games... If Templeton could get anywhere near that people would be absolutely popping their lids.

He certainly had areas to work on but if we are playing with a tackling/defensive forward, then we could do a lot worse than Saad IMO, particularly as we are desperate for avenues to goal.

[bergholt]

Even with Saads drop in form, he kicked 45 goals from 29 games... If Templeton could get anywhere near that people would be absolutely popping their lids.

He certainly had areas to work on but if we are playing with a tackling/defensive forward, then we could do a lot worse than Saad IMO, particularly as we are desperate for avenues to goal.

Agree - I just don't think we need a specialist small forward. We've got a lot of midfielders who have to get experience, could do a lot worse than just rotating them through the forward pocket. If they can show urgency and toughness down there, we've learnt something about them.

[BigMart]

Saad did average 1.5gpg

But seemed very one dimensional. He seemed to have few tricks to his bow, and besides kicking goals, he didn't do a lot else?

He created few goals for others, and had a very low ppg count

[FQF]

Saad did average 1.5gpg

But seemed very one dimensional. He seemed to have few tricks to his bow, and besides kicking goals, he didn't do a lot else?

He created few goals for others, and had a very low ppg count

He is completely one sided and a small opportunistic forward is probably the worst position to play for a player who is one sided. Opportunities are rare, and to be opportunistic, you need to be able to capitalise on them from both sides of the body.

[gringo]

Saad did average 1.5gpg

But seemed very one dimensional. He seemed to have few tricks to his bow, and besides kicking goals, he didn't do a lot else?

He created few goals for others, and had a very low ppg count

He is completely one sided and a small opportunistic forward is probably the worst position to play for a player who is one sided. Opportunities are rare, and to be opportunistic, you need to be able to capitalise on them from both sides of the body.

I thought he was pretty good Saad. he went okay. If we could rookie list him he still has potential to be a very high level player.I watched an old game a while ago and was actually really impressed by Saads performance. I had forgotten how good he was. He actually wasn't a bad mark and lead up to the ball and did some good tackling and closed out space for the ball coming out. he would definitely be worth another shot if he didn't take a senior spot.

[dragit]

I think having the greatest small forward of all time recently has clouded our expectations on someone in the role…

Seems odd for me to be defending the "small forward" role as I have been critical of that position, but if you put Saad's numbers up against the best few in the comp currently, he is not far off… and he was still learning the game.

I'm all for playing mids forward, but we also need to kick goals… if Saad can kick 30 - 40 per year he is probably worth playing. We have kicked 105 goals so far this year, with 31 coming from Nick and no other player averaging 1 goal per match.

If he could lift his disposals 3 or 4 per match, he would be well and truly up with the best in the comp…

Saad
9 disp
3.1 tackles
1.6 goals

Betts
11.7 disp
3.1 tackles
1.6 goals

L. Jetta
13.4 disp
2.4 tackles
0.9 goals

Walters
13.5 disp
2.6 tackles
1.9 goals

http://tinyurl.com/owp5zfr

[Old Mate]

A big yes from me re Saad.

[Dave McNamara]

A big yes from me re Saad.

And me too!

Those figures from Dragstar stack-up pretty damn well (though I've never rated Betsy).

I'm also surprised by some saying that Ahmed didn't apply forwardline pressure - I seem to remember that being a strong point of his.

Just think what he could do with a few more games experience under his belt... and a left foot.

IMHO there's a lot to build-on with Air Ahmed.

[plugger66]

Dont see the point being a rookie. Small forwards who cant play on the ball are a waste of time. Milne was one of the greats and he found it nearly impossible last year. We need to find mids which means playing many of them. It also means they have to rest forward. Id rather rest Billings forward than Saad.

[Zed]

there is another potential Milne in this years draft - its Jake Johansen from SA. Ive mentioned him previously but the kid can play midfield as well as small forward. Very Boomer Harvey. Captain of SA's u18 team this year - also played in their championship winning team last year. Started playing Port Magpies SANFL seniors at age 15. Quite possibly will still be available at our 2nd pick - because his lack of height will scare some away. But he has speed and smarts- and just like Boomer Harvey will play lots of games. Hope we have the courage to take him on if he is there with our round 2 pick.

[BigMart]

Milne and Harvey were very different players

As are Jetta and Betts/Saad

Players who play up the field and kick goals running midfield forward toward goal (Harvey, Jetta) are very different from players who are traditional deep forwards who run toward the ball coming in, and are able to receive the ball by getting on the end of a pass or crumb a fwd pack (Milne/Betts/Thomas) there are a few who can do both roles (Stokes, Rioli, Schnieder)

But as a small fwd averaging 1.5ppg more is significant... Can be a 10-20% increase of output... And usually a score involvement.

Saad was sort of a small leading FF? Who got his defender either on the lead or doubling back into open goal due to his straight line speed..... I don't think he created enough goals? It's all right to kick 1.5 a game... But if that's all you contribute... Your better off with someone who contributes 1 per games and sets 1 up?

[dragit]

Milne and Harvey were very different players

As are Jetta and Betts/Saad

Players who play up the field and kick goals running midfield forward toward goal (Harvey, Jetta) are very different from players who are traditional deep forwards who run toward the ball coming in, and are able to receive the ball by getting on the end of a pass or crumb a fwd pack (Milne/Betts/Thomas) there are a few who can do both roles (Stokes, Rioli, Schnieder)

But as a small fwd averaging 1.5ppg more is significant... Can be a 10-20% increase of output... And usually a score involvement.

Saad was sort of a small leading FF? Who got his defender either on the lead or doubling back into open goal due to his straight line speed..... I don't think he created enough goals? It's all right to kick 1.5 a game... But if that's all you contribute... Your better off with someone who contributes 1 per games and sets 1 up?

Thanks for all of that… which player can we draft that will kick 1 and set-up 1?

None of the players you mention above average 1 GA per match.

Fair chance that Saad hadn't reached his peak yet in his first 30 games? He was actually miles ahead of all of those players in their first 30 games.

Be great to draft someone who will kick 3 or 4 per match set-up a couple more, the reality is that they aren't out there.

Templeton had half the goals, a third of the tackles and less possessions and similar GA than Saad's average, yet everyone were wetting themselves.

[gringo]

Milne and Harvey were very different players

As are Jetta and Betts/Saad

Players who play up the field and kick goals running midfield forward toward goal (Harvey, Jetta) are very different from players who are traditional deep forwards who run toward the ball coming in, and are able to receive the ball by getting on the end of a pass or crumb a fwd pack (Milne/Betts/Thomas) there are a few who can do both roles (Stokes, Rioli, Schnieder)

But as a small fwd averaging 1.5ppg more is significant... Can be a 10-20% increase of output... And usually a score involvement.

Saad was sort of a small leading FF? Who got his defender either on the lead or doubling back into open goal due to his straight line speed..... I don't think he created enough goals? It's all right to kick 1.5 a game... But if that's all you contribute... Your better off with someone who contributes 1 per games and sets 1 up?

Thanks for all of that… which player can we draft that will kick 1 and set-up 1?

None of the players you mention above average 1 GA per match.

Fair chance that Saad hadn't reached his peak yet in his first 30 games? He was actually miles ahead of all of those players in their first 30 games.

Be great to draft someone who will kick 3 or 4 per match set-up a couple more, the reality is that they aren't out there.

Templeton had half the goals, a third of the tackles and less possessions and similar GA than Saad's average, yet everyone were wetting themselves.

We should get a mystic who can find us a guaranteed 4 goal a game 4 goal assist small forward or play one short until we do. That said I wish we could get that Pickett kid and Petracca... those guys make me want to play footy again.