Potential Mature-Age Draftees

[bergholt]

Teams have had huge success pulling mature-age guys from the VFL and other state leagues. You don't usually get a world-beater but you get a guy who can bolster the side straight away, and when it's pick 80 or rookie pick 30 your other options were probably minimal.

In recent years you're thinking players like Sam Dwyer, Sam Gibson, Dane Rampe, Mark Hutchings, Kyle Hartigan, Brett Goodes, Orren Stephenson, etc. Plenty of others.

So here's a glance at some guys who might make sense, based on the limited stats available from the VFL, WAFL and SANFL. Comments from those who know something about the subject are appreciated:

VFL
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/rpt_stats ... 0-294689-0

Ben Cavarra: little guy who won the Morrish last year (so he's 19 I guess?) and seems to be going OK for Frankston
Chris Cain: midfielder who's 27 soon, mentioned across the years, playing for Port
Adam Cockie: Sandy's guiding light, just turned 25
Nick Rippon: chunky short mid for North Ballart, just turned 20
Shane Hockey: tough mid playing for Frankston, won their B&F last year, not sure how old?

SANFL
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/rpt_stats ... 0-289294-0

Steven Summerton: 26 year old short mid playing for Port
Craig Pitt: almost 23 year old inside mid, reasonable size compared to some of these other guys
Jake Veide: 24 year old mid-size guy at South Adelaide, not sure if he plays tall or short
Jarrod Schiller: mid-20s, small defender/tough mid
Matthew Crocker: 22 year old back flanker, looks to have good disposal
Tom Keough: 22 year old tall forward, at 193cm maybe not quite big enough for AFL
Zane Kirkwood: 23 year old midfielder, played well against the VFL

WAFL
http://www.wafl.com.au/rankings/2014/av ... ls/players

Aaron Black: has got a lot of the footy for years, now 21, probably a bit small at 178cm
Shane Nelson: another small guy who gets the ball, also at West Perth, also only 21
Rory O'Brien: won the Sandover and East Freo's B&F last year, 27 and gets a lot of the ball but is only 172cm
Rohan Kerr: ex-Carlton player who's only 23, mid-size forward but only 184cm, only 22
Matt Boland: ex-Sandy player who's still only 23, at 193 and 95 he's a solid size for a key forward, kicking goals for Subiaco
Ben Saunders: 22 year old half forward flanker, probably a little small at 187cm
Ricky Cary: 22 year old full forward who's kicking goals, can't find his height but probably too small for AFL


Most probably none of these guys are good enough. A lot of them are state league size, which is maybe a couple of inches too short for AFL. But Collingwood have done a good job with little mids in the last few years: Kennedy and Blair are 174cm, Elliott is 175, Thomas is 176, Dwyer is 177. So maybe there's something here.

Once again, interested in opinions from those who follow this more than me.

[thejiggingsaint]

What an interesting read!

[PurpleHayes]

Finding a gem in the state leagues is certainly a tough ask - but I'd like to see us try!

I feel that undersized mids get overlooked simply because they are too short, it takes an exceptional short mid to cut the mustard, generally need pace or something that separates them from the grain - but looking at the pies they have simply recruited a few good footballers who happen to be short?

I think we shouldnt underestimate a state league players drive to succeed in the AFL. Not saying that alone is reason to recruit them, but we see plenty of players get drafted on talent alone and not their application (think Dayle Garlett)

[dragit]

Defintely worth a look, however I get the feeling that these guys always look a lot better in a good side, average in a bottom side.

Puopolo, Dwyer, Smith work well surrounded by other AFL level talent and I reckon Saad & Milera would look pretty good in Port or Hawthorn teams…

The flipside is Duigan, Curnow, Magner types… decent stop gap footballers, but in the end guys that basically clog lists in developing sides.

We already have Lee, TDL, Milera, Dunell, Maister, Shenton (all battling really) and will probably re-draft Saad, the only way I can see us adding a mature state player is if we trade out some midfield grunt… Armo, Montagna… retire CJ & Lenny, then someone like Cockie would be essential for competing against mature bodies for a couple of years.

[thejiggingsaint]

Fair comment dragit, concerning the players you mention. However, the idea of us keeping our eyes open for this type of recruit is one with a fair degree of merit (IMHO)

[Jimmy O'Dea]

Cavarra has been a stand out in the VFL. Will get his chance next year and will be a very good AFL player, still only 19.

[plugger66]

Cavarra has been a stand out in the VFL. Will get his chance next year and will be a very good AFL player, still only 19.

I know nothing about him but where we are at we need to get players near that age. There is no point in getting a mature body who is 25 or over. That means no one has rated them for at least 7 years. That doesnt mean they cant play but I dont see how they will help a bottom side move up the ladder. may as well keep an older proven player. Ideally these state league players are under 23 for us to show any interest.

[bergholt]

Cavarra has been a stand out in the VFL. Will get his chance next year and will be a very good AFL player, still only 19.

Someone will give him a spin most likely. But 173cm and 69kg (at the end of last year) is tiny for AFL. Joey would tower over him at 178 and 78.

[BigMart]

As I've stated. There should NEVER be any restrictions replaced on recruiting! Podsiadly, Callinan are prime examples. They can come to a club and play 50 very useful games... For a pick 50-70 that is a very good return.

A player at 25yo can potentially play 5-6 more years.

I don't see how bringing a good player into the club at anytime could not be a positive?

The age profile of out club was woeful (stated by Pelchin) ... We cannot want to be completely uncompetitive for 3 seasons... If we get that far?

I think it's just a matter of continually bringing in quality. From any/every source. If we took Barlow in 2008 when he did pre season with us... We'd be very happy people as supporters.

In 2000-2002 we were rock bottom
We traded and recruited a number of mature agers to support the draftees which fast tracked their development. GWS and GC have done the same... After initially erring

BTW
We do have to fill our cap to 95%
Do we massively overpay guys ATM to do so, or bring deserved quality in?

Question
If a player from

[plugger66]

As I've stated. There should NEVER be any restrictions replaced on recruiting! Podsiadly, Callinan are prime examples. They can come to a club and play 50 very useful games... For a pick 50-70 that is a very good return.

A player at 25yo can potentially play 5-6 more years.

I don't see how bringing a good player into the club at anytime could not be a positive?

The age profile of out club was woeful (stated by Pelchin) ... We cannot want to be completely uncompetitive for 3 seasons... If we get that far?

I think it's just a matter of continually bringing in quality. From any/every source. If we took Barlow in 2008 when he did pre season with us... We'd be very happy people as supporters.

In 2000-2002 we were rock bottom
We traded and recruited a number of mature agers to support the draftees which fast tracked their development. GWS and GC have done the same... After initially erring

BTW
We do have to fill our cap to 95%
Do we massively overpay guys ATM to do so, or bring deserved quality in?

Question
If a player from

Dont get your question. The problem with your example is you tell us guys who have made it. If you bring in a 25 year old you cant wait two years to see if he will make it or not. If you bring a 19 or 20 year old you can. Goodes at WB has been a good serviceable player but lets be honest hasnt helped the WB do anything about improving and he is an example of a player who made it. How stupid would a bottom club look to its supporters and others if they brought in a 25 year old and he didnt make it. I know for a fact that I can guess the people on here who would just pot the club. No idea what your example of 2000 has got to do with this thread. They were proven AFL footballers and this thread is on VFL type players. Dont get the Barlow thing either. Wasnt he young when he was drafted? How would magner have helped our club?

[Bluthy]

No, no, no. We need to play to our strengths. Our strength is that we are an ordinary footy club at the moment. Hence we get first crack at the young talent for the next few years that isn't hogged by GWS and GC. We don't need to fill up our list with average twenty something aged players who might improve us a bit. I would rather take a chance rookieing overlooked 18 y.o.'s. I like the eye that Pelchen and Bains had this year when they were given free reign. With Richo's help we should continue to pick up young talent and get them when they are totally coachable and haven't got bad habits. We need to play the long game not short term thinking around "improvement". That will kills us in five years time.

[thejiggingsaint]

Please stop making sense Bluthy

[kosifantutti]

No, no, no. We need to play to our strengths. Our strength is that we are an ordinary footy club at the moment. Hence we get first crack at the young talent for the next few years that isn't hogged by GWS and GC. We don't need to fill up our list with average twenty something aged players who might improve us a bit. I would rather take a chance rookieing overlooked 18 y.o.'s. I like the eye that Pelchen and Bains had this year when they were given free reign. With Richo's help we should continue to pick up young talent and get them when they are totally coachable and haven't got bad habits. We need to play the long game not short term thinking around "improvement". That will kills us in five years time.

Well that's pretty much what we did this year with Billings, Dunstan, Acres and Templeton but there was still room to get Weller, Delaney, Savage and Bruce to the club.
Without trading we will have two picks in the top 20-25, there is still plenty of spots to look at older recruits say (20-24) who didn't get picked up for various reasons when they were 18.

[Bluthy]

No, no, no. We need to play to our strengths. Our strength is that we are an ordinary footy club at the moment. Hence we get first crack at the young talent for the next few years that isn't hogged by GWS and GC. We don't need to fill up our list with average twenty something aged players who might improve us a bit. I would rather take a chance rookieing overlooked 18 y.o.'s. I like the eye that Pelchen and Bains had this year when they were given free reign. With Richo's help we should continue to pick up young talent and get them when they are totally coachable and haven't got bad habits. We need to play the long game not short term thinking around "improvement". That will kills us in five years time.

Well that's pretty much what we did this year with Billings, Dunstan, Acres and Templeton but there was still room to get Weller, Delaney, Savage and Bruce to the club.
Without trading we will have two picks in the top 20-25, there is still plenty of spots to look at older recruits say (20-24) who didn't get picked up for various reasons when they were 18.

Bruce and Delaney were brought into to urgently a fill a gap with big back man that could have seen us give up 100+ points every game. If the water pipe breaks then yes you have to get someone in to fix it. But you could make a case now that none of Weller, Delaney, Savage, Bruce, Longer have the skills necessary to be in our next premiership team. I'm not ruling it out if you genuinely feel you've found a diamond in the rough but I just think 90% of our focus should be the draft. Lets worry about the moneyball stuff after we've loaded up on some kids for a few years. Yes kids are a risk as well especially the lower down the draft you go but they are much more open to development and you potentially have a good/great player for 15 years. Why do you think Dunstan, Eli, Acres, Billings all have gone straight into the firsts? Richo know he can mould them they way he wants.

[BigMart]

Who stated anything about bringing in average anyone's?

Every player drafted or trade or rookied comes with NO guarantees.

Why would you want to narrow your view wrt bringing in talent?

Hawthorn bought in Isaac Smith from the VFL. Sydney rookied Dane Rampe from the NSWFL,
18yo are not the only people who can develop
It's been proven that players develop succeed at different ages...

We drafted A.Thompson with pick 61 in 1996 he was 24... He went on to play 200 games, captain the side and win a B&F ... He played right through a bottom out... From 28-31... Played finals at 32-34

Casting a wide net improves the catch

P66 suggesting, because a player has been overlooked by recruiters means they are no good is plain wrong. Recruiters get it wrong... They did so with JPod, they did with Mitchell, They did with Barlow, they did with Callinan, they definitely did with A.Thompson... Who was dumped twice. Milney was cut by Essendon. Heath Grundy dominated the 04 champs was left to Sydney in the rookie draft.
Ted Richards was off loaded, Harry Taylor was a mature ager out of the WAFL who Geel took with a FRP. Hibbert was taken straight from the VFL and will be an AA this year IMO ... Courageous drafting

History is littered with draft successes from different comps. End of the day, bringing in talent though... Is only half the story. Then the test begins
Over half fail... Regardless of where they come from.

Hitting high junior talent did not work for 3 very ordinary clubs?

[Zed]

Interesting point you raise Bergholt about the small guys and success Collingwood in particular have had. A lot of shorter guys get overlooked or pushed down the pecking order because of their height. The trick is to work out if they have genuine above average talent and enough tricks to make it against bigger bodies - and where they would play in your team. This years draft throws up an interesting selection - Jake Johansen from SA. He is all of 171 cm . I have watched this kid play since he was 13 and he is a genuine gun. Always busy, genuine acceleration, great skills, ferocious tackler, and knows how to kick goals. Some clubs wont rate him Im sure because of his height. He played in the U18 carnival last year, and this year is the SA U18 captain. Made his senior SANFL debut at age 15. IF he was 10cm taller he would be a top 10 draft selection. I dont know how deep this draft pool is, but I would be considering him for our 2nd pick. If he is still available at our 3rd pick would be miles ahead of the remaining draft pool on talent alone. Mark my words, the kid will play AFL footy and lots of it. Given many of our current batch of smalls will be out the door in the next 2 years (TDL, Schneids, Minch) Id love us to to recruit this kid and play him on a wing or small forward.

[Con Gorozidis]

Brett Eddy. SANFL.
Was on Collingwood list but had injury problems.
Tall fwd. Can play and a serious chance to be drafted.

[citywest]

The Saints need to stay away from mature age recruits at least for the next 3 years. Just keep recruiting the best young talent from the National Draft for 3 more years. Once we have a 'core' then from 2017 onwards the 'mature recruits' can be looked at.

[wally]

Dawes like Pods was I think a mature age recruit.Played ok at coll probably didn't look like a star,they then got Quinten Lynch who I guess
looked like a better version ,Dawes pulled pin & went to Melb. I thought he was done,and looked like it up until the last couple of weeks,by all reports
is going really well. Would anyone here want him,even short term stop gap,I doubt it.
Kosi got bagged heaps on here,but no one has taken his spot.
Jesse White may have been a good pickup to fill a hole.
Silvani, a lot of people wanted him from sandy,freo picked him up.
No one rated Leigh Brown but he played in a prem side,doing a job.
I guess I'm saying it's hit & miss the same as the draft,right bloke in the right place,can work

[bergholt]

Brett Eddy. SANFL.
Was on Collingwood list but had injury problems.
Tall fwd. Can play and a serious chance to be drafted.

It'd be a brave St Kilda recruiter that picked up another Eddy.

[bergholt]

No, no, no. We need to play to our strengths. Our strength is that we are an ordinary footy club at the moment. Hence we get first crack at the young talent for the next few years that isn't hogged by GWS and GC. We don't need to fill up our list with average twenty something aged players who might improve us a bit. I would rather take a chance rookieing overlooked 18 y.o.'s.

The only difference between our draft position - finishing bottom - and the top team's draft position is pick 1. Apart from that they've got slightly better picks than us. Ignoring compensation picks, it would be:

Saints: pick 1
premiers: pick 18, Saints: pick 19
premiers: pick 36, Saints: pick 37
premiers: pick 54, Saints: pick 55
premiers: pick 72, Saints: pick 73

So we need to do something good with pick 1, but after that we're on equal footing with the rest of the comp. We have different needs than them, because we're recruiting for six years down the track whereas they're recruiting for next year, but apart from that we have a very similar set of draft picks.

I agree with BigMart - a good player is a good player. Not sure I'd pick up Chris Cain at 27 years old, that might be going a little far, but a solid 24 year old could bolster our kids nicely for the next few years. Matt Jones for Melbourne is a good example. 20 touches a game, a few tackles.

[Junior]

Brett Eddy played for Sandringham in 2009 kicked 43 goals in 17 games in the development league.

Has obviously improved since his Sandy days, some chance to be picked up but would need a big second half of the year to be a certainty.

Have seen Ben Cavarra play live twice this year and he can seriously play but is so small, uses ball well and has reasonable pace and is hard at it.

[BigMart]

Of course it's hit and miss....

Melbourne are probably 1 year advanced on us.... Were critisised heavily for recruiting 6-8 discards... Which was silly. But they were bereft of Midfield after offloading or losing McDonald, Scully, Moloney, McLean. They had Nathan Jones... Who carried a uncompetitive team.
They bought in Cross 32, Vince and Tyson... Recruited Viney and Salem.... With Jones they now have a competitive midfield. Roos can actually start to execute a game plan now that they have the footy a bit.

I don't think getting cast offs is a good idea

I think targeting players to fill deficiencies .... The right players

StK would hopefully have their recruiters going over every state league team, every TAC Cup team, Every AFL list with a fine tooth comb.... Pouring over hours of Data and video....

To find 8 players for 2015
6 players and two Rookies

[plugger66]

Who stated anything about bringing in average anyone's?

Every player drafted or trade or rookied comes with NO guarantees.

Why would you want to narrow your view wrt bringing in talent?

Hawthorn bought in Isaac Smith from the VFL. Sydney rookied Dane Rampe from the NSWFL,
18yo are not the only people who can develop
It's been proven that players develop succeed at different ages...

We drafted A.Thompson with pick 61 in 1996 he was 24... He went on to play 200 games, captain the side and win a B&F ... He played right through a bottom out... From 28-31... Played finals at 32-34

Casting a wide net improves the catch

P66 suggesting, because a player has been overlooked by recruiters means they are no good is plain wrong. Recruiters get it wrong... They did so with JPod, they did with Mitchell, They did with Barlow, they did with Callinan, they definitely did with A.Thompson... Who was dumped twice. Milney was cut by Essendon. Heath Grundy dominated the 04 champs was left to Sydney in the rookie draft.
Ted Richards was off loaded, Harry Taylor was a mature ager out of the WAFL who Geel took with a FRP. Hibbert was taken straight from the VFL and will be an AA this year IMO ... Courageous drafting

History is littered with draft successes from different comps. End of the day, bringing in talent though... Is only half the story. Then the test begins
Over half fail... Regardless of where they come from.

Hitting high junior talent did not work for 3 very ordinary clubs?

Show me where I suggested what you just said. You said no age is out of bounds. Of course it with our list and while we are still not even at the bottom. There is no point in taking a risk on a 26 year old from the VFL or similar comps. yes I know you keep showing us players who make it so its worth it. I could easily show players who dont make it so it isnt worth it. Forget examples and lets discuss the common sense of taking players of any age as you previously stated. No problems taking a punt on VFL players but of course there has to be an age limit for a side in our position. Thats just common sens and havent had to find all the players who didnt make it.

[BigMart]

So we may as well just write off the next three years?

We recruited Stephen Powell, Brett Voss, Trent Knobel, Fraser Gerhig, Heath Black, Luke Penny, Brent Guerra, Jason Gram, Barry Brooks, Steven Lawrence

The last time we rebuilt.