Our looming debt problem: thinking outside the square.

[dragit]

Here's an outrageous idea: Maybe the poor clubs could all be scheduled to play the rich clubs as their home games for a few years instead of the big clubs always getting each other twice.

StK, North, Melb & Dogs all host Haw, Coll, Ess, Carl for a few years.

[plugger66]

Here's an outrageous idea: Maybe the poor clubs could all be scheduled to play the rich clubs as their home games for a few years instead of the big clubs always getting each other twice.

StK, North, Melb & Dogs all host Haw, Coll, Ess, Carl for a few years.

Well thats never going to happen because the AFL would lose many millions in broadcast rights and inturn cant help the poorer clubs whou would still be poor even with that type of fixture. We arent losing members because we dont play the pies at home, we are losing them because we are a poor side and never capitalised on our great years in the 2000's. The more i think about it the more confused i am as to why we didnt become a much more powerful club.

[oh when the]

Powerful clubs win premierships. We don't.

[Bluthy]

7 dollar co payment for every time we visit the Saints at a football match.

There's a lot of truth in your joke.

The AFL will have to offer compensation/aid to the strugglers.

It's created all these concessions without seeming to think through the pervere impacts on the erst of the competition.

We get close to 3 million a year compensation.

Plugger, you and all of us on this site know that we get compensated for being pushed into a crippling tenancy agreement with the Dome. But outside us the perception is that we need to be propped up by the bigger clubs. Its bulls*** - as foundation club we have helped build this competition into the huge moneylith (patent on that word) that the AFL has become. But perception is reality. Every time an issue comes up, fixtures, Anzac day etc Maguire and Kennet trumpet about their clubs should have priority as they are the cash cows for the competition. Our standing in the game is diminished by the "compensation" being thrown back in our face what should rightly be ours through our players sweat and blood. How much did we miss out on when we drew big crowds for years and years? We need to change this s*** deal so that when we rise again, and we certainly will, we will actually benefit from it properly. We don't have pokies. We don't have a huge benefactor. We don't have land and hotels and resorts. Fitzroy and South Melbourne disappeared and the other clubs stood by and watched it happen because of the perception they were a drain on the competition going forward. I'm not saying that is a real danger for us but the more we are seen as self supporting the better for standing in the comp, better for sponsors and members.

[plugger66]

7 dollar co payment for every time we visit the Saints at a football match.

There's a lot of truth in your joke.

The AFL will have to offer compensation/aid to the strugglers.

It's created all these concessions without seeming to think through the pervere impacts on the erst of the competition.

We get close to 3 million a year compensation.

Plugger, you and all of us on this site know that we get compensated for being pushed into a crippling tenancy agreement with the Dome. But outside us the perception is that we need to be propped up by the bigger clubs. Its bulls*** - as foundation club we have helped build this competition into the huge moneylith (patent on that word) that the AFL has become. But perception is reality. Every time an issue comes up, fixtures, Anzac day etc Maguire and Kennet trumpet about their clubs should have priority as they are the cash cows for the competition. Our standing in the game is diminished by the "compensation" being thrown back in our face what should rightly be ours through our players sweat and blood. How much did we miss out on when we drew big crowds for years and years? We need to change this s*** deal so that when we rise again, and we certainly will, we will actually benefit from it properly. We don't have pokies. We don't have a huge benefactor. We don't have land and hotels and resorts. Fitzroy and South Melbourne disappeared and the other clubs stood by and watched it happen because of the perception they were a drain on the competition going forward. I'm not saying that is a real danger for us but the more we are seen as self supporting the better for standing in the comp, better for sponsors and members.

We actually dont get mentioned in the compensation because unlike a couple of other clubs thats all we get so at the moment we arent on the AFL drip line. The stadium deal is crap but us whinging wont change unless we whinge to our club. They have all the information in front of them and as yet still havent really complained. certainly not like the Dogs. Why is that? i want a better deal as well but it matters little what I want. Our club must want the better deal. They are the only ones who can make it happen. I actually would love to know why they havent said anything.

[Bluthy]

I'm guessing behind the scenes the tenants and AFL have been working hard on it but the Dome are holding all the cards. We signed a contract. Where else do we play? Demetriou floated the idea of a smaller boutique stadium but the Dome just stared it down knowing it would be too expensive. The only way to hurt them is too play games elsewhere and watch Spotless and the Beer stands complain about their loss in revenue. I don't know what our contract says about how many games we need to play there. But jeez how big is our debt going to be in a few years if we hit $10 million this year? This interest payments alone would hurt like hell and its a bad look. The reality might be that we have to prostitute ourselves around a bit to get the filthy dollars in. Two games in NZ if they want us? A game in Tassie and get some disillusioned members back down there? What about a game in England for the ex-pats? "Will play for $" should be our motto over the next few years to get money and play chicken with Etihad.

[bigred]

They should move us to Tasmania.

Welcomed by the Tasmanian government with open arms.

Given four years of draft concessions and along with some overhead in the salary cap.

That should just about do it.

One day soon, the big clubs and the AFL will NOT be there to bail minnows like ourselves out. And we will have another Fitzroy.

Why the hell, how the hell are we even remotely anywhere near this position? A DECADE of on field success and we are still going to be ten million in the red?

Westaway and Nettlefold have a lot to answer for in my opinion. This is bulls***.

If the supporters get asked to tip in coin again, we seriously should all say no. Why would anyone give money to this club?

[plugger66]

They should move us to Tasmania.

Welcomed by the Tasmanian government with open arms.

Given four years of draft concessions and along with some overhead in the salary cap.

That should just about do it.

One day soon, the big clubs and the AFL will NOT be there to bail minnows like ourselves out. And we will have another Fitzroy.

Why the hell, how the hell are we even remotely anywhere near this position? A DECADE of on field success and we are still going to be ten million in the red?

Westaway and Nettlefold have a lot to answer for in my opinion. This is bulls***.

If the supporters get asked to tip in coin again, we seriously should all say no. Why would anyone give money to this club?

So they hopefully survive. Dont ever move to Tassie. it would be end of us. No side could survive there FT.

[Megamaguire]

It's a killer situation but if the club can reduce it's personal debt by flying around the southern hemisphere at least it'll be financially better placed to survive the law of the jungle or the free market AFL style.

Suns are looking a success story already and the Giants could follow next year. Then it a be time for the AFL to cast that comfortable gaze Domeward.
Sainters will feel more joy towards the newly named 'Dome' and enjoy the fact that it isn't operating to sink our club. A moments' thought for Fitzroy. Ok imagine we are back and living the non-ripped off life playing home games at the Dome or SainterDome if you like and reducing our angst to whether the roof should be open or not. Personally if it is a game during daylight hours (not twilight) i prefer the natural vibes of bue sky or grey and the odd bit of sun as the season goes on. That way it feels a bit more traditional and because St.Kida are a traditional side it allows me to imagine that the afl would not ever like to relocate the Saints!.


G O S A I N T S!

[dragit]

We get close to 3 million a year compensation.

Where is this figure pulled from?

The last figures I saw showed us getting a similar handout to Collingwood and the other big clubs.

[SaintPav]

Yeah, right.

that's private debt (yours and mine mortgage and credit card's) not government debt

government debt is this





edit the graph is a little old and it's a bit bigger than that now and probably in front of lux now but still behind switzerland

auscultate, I am aware of the difference between private and public sector debt but debt is still debt or do you reckon that private debt doesn't matter because individuals are more efficient in maximizing their utility?

Don't laugh because that is the government's excuse for letting private credit growth get so out of control.

Govt debt has just been replaced by private sector debt and it was an ideological argument. But guess what? Debt is still debt and it is financed from a very large CAD which makes Australia very vulnerable to global financial shocks.

This is hardly ever spoken about in the mainstream media but it soon will be.

BUBBLICIOUS.

[Sainternist]

They should move us to Tasmania.

Welcomed by the Tasmanian government with open arms.

Given four years of draft concessions and along with some overhead in the salary cap.

That should just about do it.

One day soon, the big clubs and the AFL will NOT be there to bail minnows like ourselves out. And we will have another Fitzroy.

Why the hell, how the hell are we even remotely anywhere near this position? A DECADE of on field success and we are still going to be ten million in the red?

Westaway and Nettlefold have a lot to answer for in my opinion. This is bulls***.

If the supporters get asked to tip in coin again, we seriously should all say no. Why would anyone give money to this club?

Surely, you are just taking the piss, right?

[PakenhamSaint]

I've always thought that after the AFL takes ownership of the stadium the clubs that were stuck under the deal 20 odd years get the profit for the following 20 years.

[Toy Saint]

Anybody know how easy (hard) it is for us to get out of the current stadium deal? I mean, if we did want to play at Geelong, are we legally entitled to just leave Docklands? For how long are we contracted to stay?

[dragit]

Anybody know how easy (hard) it is for us to get out of the current stadium deal? I mean, if we did want to play at Geelong, are we legally entitled to just leave Docklands? For how long are we contracted to stay?

As far as I know, we don't have any contract with Etihad anymore, but we are fixtured to play there by our governing body - the AFL... We'd have to lobby to play elsewhere I'd imagine.

[Toy Saint]

Anybody know how easy (hard) it is for us to get out of the current stadium deal? I mean, if we did want to play at Geelong, are we legally entitled to just leave Docklands? For how long are we contracted to stay?

As far as I know, we don't have any contract with Etihad anymore, but we are fixtured to play there by our governing body - the AFL... We'd have to lobby to play elsewhere I'd imagine.

So the governing body 'makes' us play at a stadium where we lose money?

Anybody know if we are legally entitled to take legal action against the governing body to 'force' them to allow us to make money at the gate?

Or are you telling me that the governing body is a 'boys club dicktatorship', where decisions are made by powerfull vested interest individuals?

[Dave McNamara]

Anybody know how easy (hard) it is for us to get out of the current stadium deal? I mean, if we did want to play at Geelong, are we legally entitled to just leave Docklands? For how long are we contracted to stay?

Hi T Saint, I don't know the answer to that one, however it must be possible...

I 'chose' Hillbilly Hoe-down stadium because they have made an offer to our fellow Docklands subsidisers the Poodles of $750,000 per home game they move down there. So I'm assuming that offer wouldn't have been made unless the Poodles were able to take it up if they so wished.

I also 'chose' this example because of the guarantee of $750,000 regardless of the crowd. If we are getting 15,000-20,000 crowds at Docklands, and hence forking out big $$$ for the 'privilege', then I figure we may as well get 10,000-15,000 (or hey, even a bit less) crowds down there... and make $750,000 a hit.
Four games against low drawing clubs... $3million to us.., c/f paying-out who knows how much if played at Docklands.

Another reason, is that it currently wouldn't matter if the move cost us a game or two... besides, it would expose the kids more to playing on 'foreign' grounds, so that would be a side bonus IMHO.

[Toy Saint]

Yeah, I'm convinced. Lets play interstate clubs at Geelong and make $3/4m each time.

And I can stay down at Torquay all weekend, excellent....

[BigMart]

I think I mentioned we were in a precarious position in a few years... If a shift didn't occur

That was greeted with mocking?

Surprising, because I would have suggested the financial and list position was dire

[dragit]

I think I mentioned we were in a precarious position in a few years... If a shift didn't occur

That was greeted with mocking?

Surprising, because I would have suggested the financial and list position was dire

I think you actually said

"we will cease to exist in 2017"

I'm not embellishing either.

[Sainternist]

In 2011 bloody Nettlefold said he'd get us a home fixture at the MCG. Three years later it looks as though we spending our existence in the purgatory of Darklands.

NO WAY OUT...NO WAY OUT...

[BigMart]

I think there was more to it Dragit?

If we don't make changes we will be gone.... Is probably more accurate.

I still think were are in a dangerous situation. But have made some changes to address it... Whether it works is yet to be determined

[plugger66]

I think I mentioned we were in a precarious position in a few years... If a shift didn't occur

That was greeted with mocking?

Surprising, because I would have suggested the financial and list position was dire

Saying we will cease to exist isnt saying we are in a percarious position. I think most people knew we were in trouble when we were still losing money after making GF.

BM are you hoping you will be proven right because i have noticed you would rather that then be proven wrong and the Saints improve because of that?

[Legendary]

Nettlefold - for whatever flaws he had - advocated really strongly behind the scenes for YEARS on our stadium deal. He went above and beyond on this issue, and still got nowhere, although we did manage to improve the deal we had under Waldron/Fraser.

Even when the AFL take over Etihad, we are not going to experience the returns of Geelong or Collingwood at the MCG. A poor crowd will still result in a low return from the stadium when it's under AFL management. The AFL will find (like they did at Waverley) that stadium management is not a cheap exercise.

[howlinwolf]

It's great hearing all of your different ideas. There's obviously passion which is part of being a Sainter.
I do think the Club needs to come up with a solution. I'm still waiting to see what the "marching on" campaign is all about.
I emailed the club over a month ago and asked for an update as I'm not only interested but want to contribute.
Haven't even had a reply email.
Disappointing to say the least.