Jack and Billy (Hartung, that is)

[SemperFidelis]

Interesting piece by Gary Lyon on the vagaries of the draft.

I, for one, am pretty happy we called out Jack's name at Number 3, and I think he can wear a couple of years of "rebuilding" comfortably.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... zr7fv.html

[howlinwolf]

When Lyon kept referring to "Jack" and the fact he is going to play alongside average players in an ordinary team I thought he was talking about Jack Watts or Jack Grimes.
For me Lyon is one of the most overrated scribes I have seen.

[SemperFidelis]

For me Lyon is one of the most overrated scribes I have seen.

If he scribes at all, that is! Not too many of the ex-players seem to do too much without a ghost writer!

[PJ]

Interesting read by why didn't he mention the high draft picks that have arrived in no man's land (alias Melbourne FC) and will wonder why the system has abandon them to supporters that will spit on them, jeer and boo them.

[Darth Vader]

Weird article. Fact is, the better you are as a junior footballer, the higher the likelihood you'll be drafted by a lower club - Riewoldt, Ball, Judd, Goddard, Cooney, Delidio, Franklin, Roughead, the Carlton guys etc. That's the whole point of the system, so Billings is exactly where his junior career suggested he should be - a lower club.

The whole tone of the article however, suggests that we're a crap club and have been for ages so poor old Jack for getting drafted by a crap club where he'll always be in a crap team. That might be correct if he was drafted by a club that has a track record of taking a bunch of low draft picks and stuffing them up and never getting any better like say, I don't know, MELBOURNE, but we actually have a track record of taking low draft picks and turning them into Grand Finalists.

Jack will end up being very happy he got drafted by us.

[Dave McNamara]

IMHO, the fact that we did not end up with Hartung is a further bonus to the Owl-trade that we did with the Skid Marks!

Hartung is too small. An outside receiver who, sure, looks great in a top side, but when the going gets tough, then lets see him win his own footy(!) And even if he succeeds, which I doubt, being so small, he'll cop a pounding, which will most likely shorten the length of his career anyway.

In four years time the tone of such an article as Lyon's will have the teams reversed. The Dawks have an aging team, whilst our's will be hitting its prime about the same time as the likes of Jack B are really hitting their's. One difference though..., when the Dawks drop off, you won't see Hartung playing as well as Jack B did against the Dawks last week.

[gringo]

It can end up being bad getting drafted to a top team where you are forced to wait out time getting given the odd game here and there. Some might think when Billings is a champion at 22 while Hartung has played 12 games in the same period life is better for Jack. Like leaving Brisbane for Collingwood so he could see a premiership didn't work so well for Buckley footy is a lottery.

[Dis Believer]

IMHO, the fact that we did not end up with Hartung is a further bonus to the Owl-trade that we did with the Skid Marks!

Hartung is too small. An outside receiver who, sure, looks great in a top side, but when the going gets tough, then lets see him win his own footy(!) And even if he succeeds, which I doubt, being so small, he'll cop a pounding, which will most likely shorten the length of his career anyway.

In four years time the tone of such an article as Lyon's will have the teams reversed. The Dawks have an aging team, whilst our's will be hitting its prime about the same time as the likes of Jack B are really hitting their's. One difference though..., when the Dawks drop off, you won't see Hartung playing as well as Jack B did against the Dawks last week.

Bloody well said Dave........

[SaintPav]

I don't understand the point of this article.

Jack was always going to be an early draft pick so he was never going to go to the premiers.

It's called the draft Lyon you simple twat.

Pointless.

[kosifantutti]

Con is no longer the king of going early. Gary Lyon has taken over.

Actually I think he just copy and pasted from an article he wrote in 2005 about Buddy Franklin and Andrew McQualter after this game:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/20 ... 50611.html

[perfectionist]

Weird article. Fact is, the better you are as a junior footballer, the higher the likelihood you'll be drafted by a lower club - Riewoldt, Ball, Judd, Goddard, Cooney, Delidio, Franklin, Roughead, the Carlton guys etc. That's the whole point of the system, so Billings is exactly where his junior career suggested he should be - a lower club.

The whole tone of the article however, suggests that we're a crap club and have been for ages so poor old Jack for getting drafted by a crap club where he'll always be in a crap team. That might be correct if he was drafted by a club that has a track record of taking a bunch of low draft picks and stuffing them up and never getting any better like say, I don't know, MELBOURNE, but we actually have a track record of taking low draft picks and turning them into Grand Finalists.

Jack will end up being very happy he got drafted by us.

Your first two paras sum it up precisely. I hope your optimism of the last para comes true, not least of all for Jack's sake.

[SaintPav]

Con is no longer the king of going early. Gary Lyon has taken over.

Actually I think he just copy and pasted from an article he wrote in 2005 about Buddy Franklin and Andrew McQualter after this game:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/20 ... 50611.html

I barely remember that game but I remember that Goose kicked a lovely goal inside the goal square on the run. Probably playing his best footy for us at the time.

[White Winmar]

Gary Lyon. I know for a fact he is heavily edited and supervised by a senior writer. Almost ghosting, if you prefer that term. This clown has overseen the shipwreck that is the Melbourne FC in his capacity as a consultant. One they would've been better off without, it would seem. This is the man who told us on TFS that Tom Scully was "certain" to stay with Melbourne just days before his defection to GWS was announced. Also told us that Melbourne could rebuild their club around Jack Watts. What an ass clown. Very good footballer, but not too bright. Lucky his dad won first division tatslotto twice. One wonders what would become of <edited by mods>heads like Lyon if they weren't able to kick a football.

[kosifantutti]

Con is no longer the king of going early. Gary Lyon has taken over.

Actually I think he just copy and pasted from an article he wrote in 2005 about Buddy Franklin and Andrew McQualter after this game:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/20 ... 50611.html

I barely remember that game but I remember that Goose kicked a lovely goal inside the goal square on the run. Probably playing his best footy for us at the time.

25 disposals, 3 goals and 3 votes.

[70s sainter]

Thanks for the insight Gary - or should I say Captain Obvious.
Fancy that - different players from the same draft going to different clubs.

[St Ick]

Whack!

[gringo]

Gary Lyon. I know for a fact he is heavily edited and supervised by a senior writer. Almost ghosting, if you prefer that term. This clown has overseen the shipwreck that is the Melbourne FC in his capacity as a consultant. One they would've been better off without, it would seem. This is the man who told us on TFS that Tom Scully was "certain" to stay with Melbourne just days before his defection to GWS was announced. Also told us that Melbourne could rebuild their club around Jack Watts. What an ass clown. Very good footballer, but not too bright. Lucky his dad won first division tatslotto twice. One wonders what would become of <edited by mods>heads like Lyon if they weren't able to kick a football.

He's another Dermot. Tinkers with his club without being willing to invest any real time or effort in getting an in depth view. Comes in and imposes his huge ego around while making ill informed decisions that cripple the club. He never lets an opportunity go to tell everyone how much of a sacrifice and imposition it was to help either.

[bergholt]

Young Billy only had 7 touches in half a game last night. Turns out in a tough game he's found out a bit.

[LTN16]

Young Billy only had 7 touches in half a game last night. Turns out in a tough game he's found out a bit.

Exactly bergholt! I was about to post the same thing myself. I said it last week, let's see him in a team when the game is in the balance and see if he plays as good. Quiet easy to get a kick in a team that's winning by 100+ points..

[kosifantutti]

Young Billy only had 7 touches in half a game last night. Turns out in a tough game he's found out a bit.

But he was sub for Cyril. 7 touches in a half is about right.

[BigMart]

Bergholt

It was his SECOND game.... Don't be silly

Are we that precious that we can't even fathom another club taking a kid after us and him turning out a good player? Or better than our pick?! It happens, and in our case regularly! But that's the draft?!

Do we want Hartung to fail, so we feel good that we didn't select him? There's every chance he ends up a gun

He was a GUN junior.... Just a class above at Dandy Stingrays

We also selected NDS... Who is at North. North chose Sam Power 3 selections ahead of him in 2001... Could have had him for 12 years? Even worse, another SMALL player... Who was apparently slow... Was overlooked completely in 2000 and in 2001 was chosen at pick 36... Won the rising star immediately, won 4 B&Fs was captain of a premiership, multiple AA and still elite

Being small?! Not sure if that means you are destined to fail... Daniel Kerr was small, Harvey is small, Stokes is small, Montagna is small, Schnieder is small, Mitchell is small, Crawford, Cousins... And etc...

Some things I've heard over the years

We we definitely keen on Billy Hartung... So no doubt views would be different if we ended up with him!

Talk of Jack Riewoldt in 2006 with pick 9 but he was seen as not worth it by a senior recruiter, suggesting he didn't have the physical attributes, discipline or even a potential position at AFL level?! And that Fellow Tasmanian Mitch Thorpe was streets ahead of him!... Even though Hamish Ogilvie (state coach) clearly indicated Jack was the better player

In 1999 the recruiter had his eye firmly set on a couple of players at pick 9. Elite skilled Rob Murphy, who was still available at 9 and U18 champs medallist and freak sportsman, Tasmanian Brad Green. The new coach opposed Murphy as too light, and Green as not a KPP Mid so not worth pick 9... He wanted a strong body mid to replace R.Harvey and was adamant on Beetham! Harves played 5 years after Beetham.

Same story in 1997
On the basis of one game and some research the senior coach convinced the recruiter to select Ben Walton over his preference... Northern Knight mid Nick Stevens!!

We interviewed Steven Johnson multiple times in 2001 funnily enough as a possible KPF. His interviews were not supposedly the best, but his talent was elite. However the trading and delisting of the two Wakelins left a KPD hole and after taking three mids we used pick 21 on Maguire who was seen as a 40-50 pick... Overlooking Johnson

Drafting is always speculative

Comparing players is going to be endless debate.

Instead.... You look at the batch you get... And hopefully they turn out good players..

Like pick 43 in 2007
Who could easily have been pick 9 and we'd be happy

[Spinner]

Bergholt

It was his SECOND game.... Don't be silly

Are we that precious that we can't even fathom another club taking a kid after us and him turning out a good player? Or better than our pick?! It happens, and in our case regularly! But that's the draft?!

Do we want Hartung to fail, so we feel good that we didn't select him? There's every chance he ends up a gun

He was a GUN junior.... Just a class above at Dandy Stingrays

We also selected NDS... Who is at North. North chose Sam Power 3 selections ahead of him in 2001... Could have had him for 12 years? Even worse, another SMALL player... Who was apparently slow... Was overlooked completely in 2000 and in 2001 was chosen at pick 36... Won the rising star immediately, won 4 B&Fs was captain of a premiership, multiple AA and still elite

Being small?! Not sure if that means you are destined to fail... Daniel Kerr was small, Harvey is small, Stokes is small, Montagna is small, Schnieder is small, Mitchell is small, Crawford, Cousins... And etc...

Some things I've heard over the years

We we definitely keen on Billy Hartung... So no doubt views would be different if we ended up with him!

Talk of Jack Riewoldt in 2006 with pick 9 but he was seen as not worth it by a senior recruiter, suggesting he didn't have the physical attributes, discipline or even a potential position at AFL level?! And that Fellow Tasmanian Mitch Thorpe was streets ahead of him!... Even though Hamish Ogilvie (state coach) clearly indicated Jack was the better player

In 1999 the recruiter had his eye firmly set on a couple of players at pick 9. Elite skilled Rob Murphy, who was still available at 9 and U18 champs medallist and freak sportsman, Tasmanian Brad Green. The new coach opposed Murphy as too light, and Green as not a KPP Mid so not worth pick 9... He wanted a strong body mid to replace R.Harvey and was adamant on Beetham! Harves played 5 years after Beetham.

Same story in 1997
On the basis of one game and some research the senior coach convinced the recruiter to select Ben Walton over his preference... Northern Knight mid Nick Stevens!!

We interviewed Steven Johnson multiple times in 2001 funnily enough as a possible KPF. His interviews were not supposedly the best, but his talent was elite. However the trading and delisting of the two Wakelins left a KPD hole and after taking three mids we used pick 21 on Maguire who was seen as a 40-50 pick... Overlooking Johnson

Drafting is always speculative

Comparing players is going to be endless debate.

Instead.... You look at the batch you get... And hopefully they turn out good players..

Like pick 43 in 2007
Who could easily have been pick 9 and we'd be happy

I actually likes these stories of the past. I assume they are from beveridge?

But two things on top of that:

1. You go early and do the exact opposite of what your preaching in relation to drafting.
2. Jack Steven was pick 42 not 43 as you stated.

[gringo]

Bergholt

It was his SECOND game.... Don't be silly

Are we that precious that we can't even fathom another club taking a kid after us and him turning out a good player? Or better than our pick?! It happens, and in our case regularly! But that's the draft?!

Do we want Hartung to fail, so we feel good that we didn't select him? There's every chance he ends up a gun

He was a GUN junior.... Just a class above at Dandy Stingrays

We also selected NDS... Who is at North. North chose Sam Power 3 selections ahead of him in 2001... Could have had him for 12 years? Even worse, another SMALL player... Who was apparently slow... Was overlooked completely in 2000 and in 2001 was chosen at pick 36... Won the rising star immediately, won 4 B&Fs was captain of a premiership, multiple AA and still elite

Being small?! Not sure if that means you are destined to fail... Daniel Kerr was small, Harvey is small, Stokes is small, Montagna is small, Schnieder is small, Mitchell is small, Crawford, Cousins... And etc...

Some things I've heard over the years

We we definitely keen on Billy Hartung... So no doubt views would be different if we ended up with him!

Talk of Jack Riewoldt in 2006 with pick 9 but he was seen as not worth it by a senior recruiter, suggesting he didn't have the physical attributes, discipline or even a potential position at AFL level?! And that Fellow Tasmanian Mitch Thorpe was streets ahead of him!... Even though Hamish Ogilvie (state coach) clearly indicated Jack was the better player

In 1999 the recruiter had his eye firmly set on a couple of players at pick 9. Elite skilled Rob Murphy, who was still available at 9 and U18 champs medallist and freak sportsman, Tasmanian Brad Green. The new coach opposed Murphy as too light, and Green as not a KPP Mid so not worth pick 9... He wanted a strong body mid to replace R.Harvey and was adamant on Beetham! Harves played 5 years after Beetham.

Same story in 1997
On the basis of one game and some research the senior coach convinced the recruiter to select Ben Walton over his preference... Northern Knight mid Nick Stevens!!

We interviewed Steven Johnson multiple times in 2001 funnily enough as a possible KPF. His interviews were not supposedly the best, but his talent was elite. However the trading and delisting of the two Wakelins left a KPD hole and after taking three mids we used pick 21 on Maguire who was seen as a 40-50 pick... Overlooking Johnson

Drafting is always speculative

Comparing players is going to be endless debate.

Instead.... You look at the batch you get... And hopefully they turn out good players..

Like pick 43 in 2007
Who could easily have been pick 9 and we'd be happy

I think he's more pointing out that Gary Lyon crowed early when he pretty much wrote that poor old Billings had been dropped in a bucket of crap where his spirit will be slowly crushed under the weight of loses and s*** players around him while Hartung will soar along side his superior team mates. There is plenty of Schadenfruede after Lyon had a kick at us. I'm sure most hope he has a good career but we all hope Billing is better. Hartung was very close to being a Saint so we will all keep an eye on his career.

[Con Gorozidis]

Re BigMarts post - This is why I am a strong advocate that coaches - (any coach) - should not be involved at all during draft and trade period.

Yes I get howled down for it - but to me there needs to be a clear demarcation. The coach is too clouded and emotionally invlved and has a a shorter term horizon and has stresses about his own job etc etc . Allowing a 'bit of input' then becomes a slippery slope.

If I was the footy manager (Pelchen in this case but any footy manager at any club)- id give the coach a long holiday from October to November and say 'see you back at work when you are fresh and rested on December 1 champ.'

As for the article itself- I cant believe it warrants any interest. It is an excuse for a dig at the Saints. If the point is to say 'players go to different clubs as a result of the draft' - well yes thanks for that Captain Obvious.

[BigMart]

I was referring to the suggestion Hartung can too harshly at all ATM?

Same with Dunstan and Co

I think there are definite positives and negatives about going to a good vs struggling club as a draftee
Armo at Richmond/Melbourne would be on 150+ games now... Would be a far better player, earlier
Dunstan, Acres, Billings and others will get to 100 games quicker than most 2013 draftees
They will be shouldering perhaps too much responsibility! Possibly... But ask a draftee, they want an opportunity, not an apprenticeship

I have definitely gone early on players.... There's a difference between recognising if a kid can play footy, and whether or not they can play AFL.... That takes some time to adjust to...

I was critical of Cripps, Sweeney, Howard and a few others.... I think before they even played an AFL game

Cripps.... Because I believe courage doesn't require a birth certificate, for a pick 24 he really is a outside fringe flanker/pocket who didn't win his own ball. Very frail body. And yes, I be honest, I saw him pull out of a contest a couple of times in the VFL which that level of footballer, instinctively should not do!

Sweeney.... Well known in the MPNFL junior ranks as an excitement machine who loved a drink, smoke and other... A poor trainer and was not willing to sacrifice for rep footy as a junior. He was only a speculative pick... So no damage done... But kids who would give anything, missed out for a kid less deserved IMO

Howard... Nothing against the fellow, seemed like a genuine kid who tried hard... He was simply out of his depth even at VFL level. Not his fault he was taken at pick 27, that was a poor selection. In fact 2006 was not a great year for our recruiters.... But not as bad as 2009, 2005, 2004... 2010 also seems a big bust, after initial calls of its great success. 2011/2012 quite good. As I stated way back when, my cousin played on him in the champs and was astounded he was drafted. Said he was a good runner, but couldn't play footy