I don't get it....

[Teflon]

There's plenty of other games to lose.

It didn't have to be tonight against them.

Daniel Merrett. What a f****** hero.

Did we lose ?

Perspective is an amazing thing....

Was ice beating drug cheats last week though...

[kosifantutti]

Not yet.

Ye of little faith kosi (I had you as a glass half full guy !!)

The signs are there - we got the last couple drafts right and this year is first time uncompromised from GWS and co... Now is the time to make hay...

We get it right, maximise our picks, keep salary cap in check while some greats retire and then load up with a BIG free agent when we are screaming up the ladder ...look out!

For the record - i think Melbourne set themselves back a decade when they got rid of leaders like Macdonald... we've been pretty selective who we let go of for that reason I think... we'll be ok

Don't worry. I have faith. I just don't see that it's essential to keep losing games. I would be much happier if we finished ninth than 18th.

[saintspremiers]

There's plenty of other games to lose.

It didn't have to be tonight against them.

Daniel Merrett. What a f****** hero.

Exactly. Winning in NZ is important. We don't want after 5 years to have lost every outing here and for it to become another Tassie debacle.

[Teflon]

There's plenty of other games to lose.

It didn't have to be tonight against them.

Daniel Merrett. What a f****** hero.

Exactly. Winning in NZ is important. We don't want after 5 years to have lost every outing here and for it to become another Tassie debacle.

Agree NZ is probably where you want to win..... although I think the bigger issue is only 13k turning up... winning/losing might be irrelevant if they don't buy in

We need to play bigger drawing teams tbh

[SaintPav]

There's plenty of other games to lose.

It didn't have to be tonight against them.

Daniel Merrett. What a f****** hero.

Did we lose ?

Perspective is an amazing thing....

Was ice beating drug cheats last week though...

Yes, we lost the game tonight.

Did we lose overall? We will know at the end of the year.

We need a top 5 draft pick. We also need another two picks in the top 30.

That's obviously not possible though unless we trade some value.

[Teflon]

There's plenty of other games to lose.

It didn't have to be tonight against them.

Daniel Merrett. What a f****** hero.

Did we lose ?

Perspective is an amazing thing....

Was ice beating drug cheats last week though...

Yes, we lost the game tonight.

Did we lose overall? We will know at the end of the year.

Yep top 5 pick and 2 inside 30 would be nice
That's obviously not possible though unless we trade some value.

We need a top 5 draft pick. We also need another two picks in the top 30.

[bigcarl]

we can not afford to have a year out if the box and finish 9th - it does our drafting prospects no good and that has to be the bigger game for us

I see where you are coming from Teflon, but you're not suggesting the "T" word are you?

Apart from it being against the rules and the spirit of the game, I reckon it breeds a bad, losing culture and can lead to mental scarring among the players much as we've seen with Melbourne over the past five years.

If I was Richo I'd be trying to win every week and be trusting in the Pelican's drafting and trading to get the right types in. And if there is any further bottoming out to be done, it should be a natural occurrence rather than a manipulated one.

That's my take on it. But. believe it or not, I can see where you are coming from.

[Zed]

Because there are some games you hope you can win and some games you expect to win. For the first time this year I expected to win and so did many other Saints fans- so yes I am gutted, because these kinds of losses drain away the belief. The slide into mediocrity and despair can come quickly for a team thin on ready to go talent like ours is right now. Relaunching from 4th bottom is a lot easier than relaunching from the bottom 2 - just look at Melbourne . We can't afford to sink to the bottom.

Completely disagree and any comparison to Melbourne is laughable

I am confident in the Pelican plan - I'm not sure Melbourne have had a plan last few years

I do know we made a Melbourne mistake in appointing Watters (see Neeld) but that to has been rectified

Again, we aren't going to challenge any time soon unless we get another 2 Billings and a Riewoldt in the side...... losing to Lions by 3 pts is a battle loss while the real war is raging. Let's win that.

My comment about Melbourne was about attitude and headspace .. Hence my statement about belief. This game is as much about believing you can win. I like Richo , his style and game plan are good _ but St Kilda have always been a club that snatches defeat from the jaws of victory because of our lack of belief _ which translates to missing crucial shots on front of goal. If we are to win another flag we also have to go out and get the best sports psychologist that money can buy - the one at Liverpool would be a good start. Recruiting gun players is important but lets not forget this is a team game. We had arguably the best top 6 in the comp for much of the last decade and yet the teams we played in the big finals always believed we were mentally vulnerable.

[SaintPav]

yet the teams we played in the big finals always believed we were mentally vulnerable.

Which teams thought we were mentally vulnerable? Footscray? They can't even get into Grand Finals.

[Teflon]

Id never condone outward tanking eg telling players not to try etc cause that would be detrimental

What I would condone is enduring if Nick Riewoldt has a niggle.. he has a spell

Development comes first - but I know that's a balance (can't play all kids or we get flogged).

Zed - don't buy the "we are mentally weak" stuff and I don't reckon Lyon did in 09 either

We have another good coach. What we must do now is equip him with some real AGrade talent along with a bottom list talent of no less than BGrade (better than Eddy, Jones, Mqalters etc) to win it. Our best bet to do that us get as high as pick in the draft (top 5 min) we can.

Again, not interested in getting pats on the back cause we "manfully scraped into 9th" - a complete waste of time that Richmond/Carlton can attest to....they still lack quality IMO

But I reckon Pelican and his team are on track so I'm backing them in to get it right - I just want them to have the best opportunity to do it. If that means they have access to a Tom Boyd..then I'm ok with that

Win war - lose a battle or 2 along way (with the odd Bonbers win to show us something) is what I'm interested in so losing last night??? Meh...

[thejiggingsaint]

Good post teffers me owld tater!

[kosifantutti]

Id never condone outward tanking eg telling players not to try etc cause that would be detrimental

What I would condone is enduring if Nick Riewoldt has a niggle.. he has a spell

Development comes first - but I know that's a balance (can't play all kids or we get flogged).

Zed - don't buy the "we are mentally weak" stuff and I don't reckon Lyon did in 09 either

We have another good coach. What we must do now is equip him with some real AGrade talent along with a bottom list talent of no less than BGrade (better than Eddy, Jones, Mqalters etc) to win it. Our best bet to do that us get as high as pick in the draft (top 5 min) we can.

Again, not interested in getting pats on the back cause we "manfully scraped into 9th" - a complete waste of time that Richmond/Carlton can attest to....they still lack quality IMO

But I reckon Pelican and his team are on track so I'm backing them in to get it right - I just want them to have the best opportunity to do it. If that means they have access to a Tom Boyd..then I'm ok with that

Win war - lose a battle or 2 along way (with the odd Bonbers win to show us something) is what I'm interested in so losing last night??? Meh...

You do realise that Carlton had 3 number 1 draft picks in successive years. How did that work out for them?

And Tom Boyd. I've never seen him play but he's no guarantee of being any better than Kreuzer or Josh Fraser.

[Moods]

I tell you what I don't get. People who don't understand the importance of WINNING. Our team will progress fwd far quicker if these young blokes learn how to win. You don't HAVE to have #1 draft picks to be successful. The last time the cats had a draft pick inside the top 10 was in 06. We need to be developing players like the Cats, Hawks and pies do rather than adopt the losers mentality of the Dees who celebrate mediocrity because they hope to get ANOTHER early draft pick. If you hope our teams loses, why bother even switching on the tv/going to the game? The players run out on the ground trying to win - I see our job as supporters to support them in their quest. I don't see myself as a spectator (like when I go to a game involving opposition teams playing)

I see us fast becoming a club like we were in the 80's if we hope to lose games, or aren't concerned about games that are lost. We become the target of ordinary footballers looking to cash in their super (see the Dees today) because it's easy to get a game and the club will want some experience out on the ground.

If we lose, we lose on our merits and as a club (supporters, players, everyone) should be bloody disappointed and striving to do better.

[falka]

I want to win every game. That is why we were all peeved last night

But waking today the reality is we are bottom 6 team.

Frustration is 4-2 and you dare to dream.

Reality is we are going to lose some amazing players over next few years and they need replacing with highly skilled, smart and dynamic players. We need early picks to help this

Other reality is we need to win games to build belief for players and supporters (hard core members too )

Best result is that we win some good games like Essendon match and remain competitive, whilst retaining a top 5 pick

My concern is we need a lot more A talent then we have and don't know how we are going to get it with only 1 first rd pick a year

[Moods]

My concern is we need a lot more A talent then we have and don't know how we are going to get it with only 1 first rd pick a year

Exactly! Which is why hoping to build a team around heaps of top 10 picks may not eventuate. GC and GWS can go down that path. The Dees will as well. I reckon we'll almost become irrelevant if we become 'that' club again. If it happens it happens. Otherwise win as many as you can, and let the recruiting guys tweak things to get the best possible deals.

[spert]

A game we should have won easily against rubbish opposition- doesn't do our NZ cause any good at all..two games, two losses and next time probably smaller crowds. I expect a few bums to be kicked by Richo this week.

[bigcarl]

My concern is we need a lot more A talent then we have and don't know how we are going to get it with only 1 first rd pick a year

Exactly! Which is why hoping to build a team around heaps of top 10 picks may not eventuate. GC and GWS can go down that path. The Dees will as well. I reckon we'll almost become irrelevant if we become 'that' club again. If it happens it happens. Otherwise win as many as you can, and let the recruiting guys tweak things to get the best possible deals.

Yep, that's where I am at, too.

[bigcarl]

I tell you what I don't get. People who don't understand the importance of WINNING. Our team will progress fwd far quicker if these young blokes learn how to win. You don't HAVE to have #1 draft picks to be successful. The last time the cats had a draft pick inside the top 10 was in 06. We need to be developing players like the Cats, Hawks and pies do rather than adopt the losers mentality of the Dees who celebrate mediocrity because they hope to get ANOTHER early draft pick.

well said

[gringo]

Id never condone outward tanking eg telling players not to try etc cause that would be detrimental

What I would condone is enduring if Nick Riewoldt has a niggle.. he has a spell

Development comes first - but I know that's a balance (can't play all kids or we get flogged).

Zed - don't buy the "we are mentally weak" stuff and I don't reckon Lyon did in 09 either

We have another good coach. What we must do now is equip him with some real AGrade talent along with a bottom list talent of no less than BGrade (better than Eddy, Jones, Mqalters etc) to win it. Our best bet to do that us get as high as pick in the draft (top 5 min) we can.

Again, not interested in getting pats on the back cause we "manfully scraped into 9th" - a complete waste of time that Richmond/Carlton can attest to....they still lack quality IMO

But I reckon Pelican and his team are on track so I'm backing them in to get it right - I just want them to have the best opportunity to do it. If that means they have access to a Tom Boyd..then I'm ok with that

Win war - lose a battle or 2 along way (with the odd Bonbers win to show us something) is what I'm interested in so losing last night??? Meh...

You do realise that Carlton had 3 number 1 draft picks in successive years. How did that work out for them?

And Tom Boyd. I've never seen him play but he's no guarantee of being any better than Kreuzer or Josh Fraser.

i can guarantee he will be 10 times better than those spuds. Both were that odd sized not quite strong enough to ruck but not quite KP options either. Those types can dominate lower grades but don't often translate well to the AFL. Boyd is a 2 meter tall old school KPF and has the full range of tricks to be a very good player. He might take time like Hawkins but he will be something pretty good. Can take contested grabs, leads well, kicks straight not much he doesn't do well. Probably better at TAC level than Patton by a fair margin. He will be a big immovable lump that no one can get around or over with sticky hands and a good kick on goal. His composure is very good too. Be scared he will dominate. Cameron and Patton will kill you if he doesn't Mccarthy or Jaksche can get you if they don't. Arghhhhh. Hope we can get another three Bruce and Delaney size backs just in case.

[Hurricane]

As others have said I would much rather build a winning culture than lose and get another high draft pick.

Look at the difference between the best and the worst, Hawthorn fans (rightfully so) turn up to games knowing they will win. They have committed quality team, a stable structure of coaches and staff, a committed loyal fan base, high quality sponsors and a winning culture. Melbourne have a plethora of very high draft picks but not much else apart from a collection of cast offs and players who aren't quite good enough, a million dollar mercenary coach, brand new sponsors, a fan base that, while loyal, trudges through the gates hoping not to lose by too much.

Id rather win and build a quality team through smart trading and drafting than lose and become a total basket case with 10 top 5 draft picks running around

BANG BANG

[gringo]

As others have said I would much rather build a winning culture than lose and get another high draft pick.

Look at the difference between the best and the worst, Hawthorn fans (rightfully so) turn up to games knowing they will win. They have committed quality team, a stable structure of coaches and staff, a committed loyal fan base, high quality sponsors and a winning culture. Melbourne have a plethora of very high draft picks but not much else apart from a collection of cast offs and players who aren't quite good enough, a million dollar mercenary coach, brand new sponsors, a fan base that, while loyal, trudges through the gates hoping not to lose by too much.

Id rather win and build a quality team through smart trading and drafting than lose and become a total basket case with 10 top 5 draft picks running around

BANG BANG

last night won't dispirit anyone though and close losses aren't the problem. walking away knowing that one harder effort or tweak would have won it gets less complacency and more buy in that a bad loss. The games you don't want are ones like the Kangaroos game last year when by 10 minutes into the first quarter you sensed a 100 point loss coming. Close losses I can except with a young team, I just don't want no effort like Melbourne have offered up in the last couple of years.

[Hurricane]

As others have said I would much rather build a winning culture than lose and get another high draft pick.

Look at the difference between the best and the worst, Hawthorn fans (rightfully so) turn up to games knowing they will win. They have committed quality team, a stable structure of coaches and staff, a committed loyal fan base, high quality sponsors and a winning culture. Melbourne have a plethora of very high draft picks but not much else apart from a collection of cast offs and players who aren't quite good enough, a million dollar mercenary coach, brand new sponsors, a fan base that, while loyal, trudges through the gates hoping not to lose by too much.

Id rather win and build a quality team through smart trading and drafting than lose and become a total basket case with 10 top 5 draft picks running around

BANG BANG

last night won't dispirit anyone though and close losses aren't the problem. walking away knowing that one harder effort or tweak would have won it gets less complacency and more buy in that a bad loss. The games you don't want are ones like the Kangaroos game last year when by 10 minutes into the first quarter you sensed a 100 point loss coming. Close losses I can except with a young team, I just don't want no effort like Melbourne have offered up in the last couple of years.

Understandable. However I expected us to roll Brisbane considering how poor they've been and how good we've been for 4 out of 5 weeks.

Still you make a fair point

BANG BANG

[SemperFidelis]

I tell you what I don't get. People who don't understand the importance of WINNING. Our team will progress fwd far quicker if these young blokes learn how to win. You don't HAVE to have #1 draft picks to be successful. The last time the cats had a draft pick inside the top 10 was in 06. We need to be developing players like the Cats, Hawks and pies do rather than adopt the losers mentality of the Dees who celebrate mediocrity because they hope to get ANOTHER early draft pick. If you hope our teams loses, why bother even switching on the tv/going to the game? The players run out on the ground trying to win - I see our job as supporters to support them in their quest. I don't see myself as a spectator (like when I go to a game involving opposition teams playing)

+1. And +1001 from my nearly 8 year old, who went to sleep sobbing, with a CD of the Saints song playing in the background. He didn't grow up in the 70s and 80s. He expects us to win.

We don't have to win them all, or even most of them. I'm frankly thrilled we've done as well as we have so far, and we will lose many more. But we bloody well have to be trying.

Remember that shocking Melbourne game a few years back when the "supporters" were cheering for Richmond to get the Scully priority pick. We must never sink so low.

[SMS]

Well said

Acres, Hickey too will be a grade
Our ressies are topnof ladder
Weller and co all looking good.

Hickey from what i witnessed will explode as a great ruckman very soon.

Websters speed and long kicking is fantastic.
We have many youngsters all showing great signs

Deep breathes it wil take time but i am so excied from wha ive seen.
Murdoch and wright while not agrade are sooo hard. Bruce is a monster with a hige left foot.

Another couple of years of drafting then steal an a grade KPP in 2016

come 2017 we will be up there in the top 4 again.

In the meantime enjoy the ride.

[kosifantutti]

Id never condone outward tanking eg telling players not to try etc cause that would be detrimental

What I would condone is enduring if Nick Riewoldt has a niggle.. he has a spell

Development comes first - but I know that's a balance (can't play all kids or we get flogged).

Zed - don't buy the "we are mentally weak" stuff and I don't reckon Lyon did in 09 either

We have another good coach. What we must do now is equip him with some real AGrade talent along with a bottom list talent of no less than BGrade (better than Eddy, Jones, Mqalters etc) to win it. Our best bet to do that us get as high as pick in the draft (top 5 min) we can.

Again, not interested in getting pats on the back cause we "manfully scraped into 9th" - a complete waste of time that Richmond/Carlton can attest to....they still lack quality IMO

But I reckon Pelican and his team are on track so I'm backing them in to get it right - I just want them to have the best opportunity to do it. If that means they have access to a Tom Boyd..then I'm ok with that

Win war - lose a battle or 2 along way (with the odd Bonbers win to show us something) is what I'm interested in so losing last night??? Meh...

You do realise that Carlton had 3 number 1 draft picks in successive years. How did that work out for them?

And Tom Boyd. I've never seen him play but he's no guarantee of being any better than Kreuzer or Josh Fraser.

i can guarantee he will be 10 times better than those spuds. Both were that odd sized not quite strong enough to ruck but not quite KP options either. Those types can dominate lower grades but don't often translate well to the AFL. Boyd is a 2 meter tall old school KPF and has the full range of tricks to be a very good player. He might take time like Hawkins but he will be something pretty good. Can take contested grabs, leads well, kicks straight not much he doesn't do well. Probably better at TAC level than Patton by a fair margin. He will be a big immovable lump that no one can get around or over with sticky hands and a good kick on goal. His composure is very good too. Be scared he will dominate. Cameron and Patton will kill you if he doesn't Mccarthy or Jaksche can get you if they don't. Arghhhhh. Hope we can get another three Bruce and Delaney size backs just in case.

Guarantee? Send me a PM in ten years. In the meantime I'll get in early and say with him averaging 4 possessions per game he's a long way behind Kreuzer at the same stage of his career.