Sandi is Overrated

[plugger66]

BTW

Have you discovered anymore examples yet

The forwards ones didn't pay off... Mainly because you missed the point.

You should have gone defenders? Perhaps?!

The more I apply it in comparing Ruck games, the more it balance out Ruckmans stats IMO

I'm confused again,

Are you talking to me?

About your supercomputer again?

Stats don't tell the full story - agreed. I think everyone would.

Does the method of how demented fans on the internet rank players really matter?

*(demented includes all of us)

No its me i think but who would know. Apparently proving that Plugger when he kicked 10 goals out of 13 against carlton didnt play as good of a game as Mumford proves that forwards didnt pay off whatever that means.

[gringo]

This is getting pretty damn funny... Champion data stocks will plummet tomorrow when this revolutionary player rating system is unleashed.
Gringo, can you please bring a ferret and a goose into your next analogy?

Champion data rated some of the guys who went at about pick 40 as the best few in the draft so maybe mart could flog his new system to AFL clubs. He would be like a ferret with a cornered goose if he got that kind of credibility.

[HitTheBoundary]

If anyone is struggling with the math in this thread, there is a program that can help.....


But for the rest of us, can't we just be pleased that Hickey has shown vast improvement and Rhys looks like he could be the forward/ruck type player that we need?

[joffaboy]

JB
I'm sure Hawthorn would be one of the answers

To what?

Secondly how do you know both coaches gave Hickey votes?

How do you know they didn't?

Which two coaches DID NOT give Mumford a vote?

If they did give him one each... You stated he was given second best player... That's 5th best in my mind? If he got 4th best from one he wasn't rated best by the other?

Why do you lie???

Obviously both coaches thought Hickey better than Mumford and Hickey the fifth best player on the ground.

I had him as 2nd best btw
And Mumford as 6th best
Riewoldt, Hickey, Armitage, Sheed, Mumford, Ray... Were my best 6

Well that impresses me more than silly old AFL coaches.

But with your scientific ratings system you had Mumford on 38 and Hickey on 36 but still Hickey 2nd and Mumford 6th.

You sound very confused, but still you think you know more about a players performance than AFL coaches. Good for you.

Going on Stats Mumford was just better as a Ruckman
But there were two telling moments in the game where Hickey CREATED a score

[/quote]

Going on stats - lol which stats? Goal scoring stats? Oh thats right they are only worth a point. All those telling handballs by Mumford got him over the line.

Lies damn lies and statistics. You really dont understand numbers very well.

Who were the clubs laughing at us over the MacEvoy trade? Answer that BigMart. You made the statement, back it up.

[joffaboy]

Yes he kicked three... Big deal

How many did he and Mumford STOP or CREATE

Yeah big deal. He only kicked three, we won by 7 points, its not like those 18 points mattered or anything.

[BigMart]

So JB

In another post you didn't say most experts had Hickey 2nd best... Is your memory failing you?... Or are those experts the SS posters who give votes?


No
Silly old coaches also had Watts as one of the BOG in R1 where you embarrassingly went to town on him.... What would the silly old AFL coaches like premiership coach Paul Roos know... Not as much as you is suppose?!

And
How much do you think goals are worth? After all, it is just a kick between two sticks a fair way apart? If a fwd marks a ball and kicks a goal... Is that a great deal better than if a defender marks a ball to stop a goal, and hits a target coming out of defence? How Much better? Triple? Quadruple? Not at all? What's your figure? How do we reward a FB for out pointing a FF?? They don't get to have a shot at goal, but they stopped one?!

And speaking of lies

Please quote where I have stated that I know more than AFL coaches??

What I do know is

I know more than you?...

But hey, that's just subjective... Like your opinion of Watts... And a lot of other unsupported commentary you dribble...

Btw
Who got in the best for GWS against us... Perhaps look it up

[skeptic]

thought I'd weigh in with neutral supporters

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/mcevoy.1056067/

[joffaboy]

So JB

In another post you didn't say most experts had Hickey 2nd best... Is your memory failing you?... Or are those experts the SS posters who give votes?

Oh another post. Cant remember that, care to find it and quote it for me?

No
Silly old coaches also had Watts as one of the BOG in R1 where you embarrassingly went to town on him.... What would the silly old AFL coaches like premiership coach Paul Roos know... Not as much as you is suppose?!

Watts is a softcock, and was not in the best. Gutless wonder. And unlike the players you critisise Watts is an opposition player, you embarrass yourself by calling our players a gumby and then making up false stats to try and justify your idiocies

And
How much do you think goals are worth?

Is this a trick question. Lets see, umm 6 points? Oh wait in trails they can be worth 9. Geez you are a real student of the game

After all, it is just a kick between two sticks a fair way apart?

Thats correct, because a hundred handballs will win you a game even if you dont kick it between the big sticks.

If a fwd marks a ball and kicks a goal... Is that a great deal better than if a defender marks a ball to stop a goal, and hits a target coming out of defence

has anybody ever exp[lained to you the object of the game is to score more points than the opposition? the emphasis being on scoring.

? How Much better? Triple? Quadruple? Not at all? What's your figure?

You are the expert in quasi faux statistics you pulled them out of your behinfd to get Mumford over the line.

How do we reward a FB for out pointing a FF??

A BigM and a packet of Tim Tams?

They don't get to have a shot at goal, but they stopped one?!

Who didn't? Maybe they should have stopped Hickey from scoring three

And speaking of lies

Please quote where I have stated that I know more than AFL coaches??

You made up a ridiculous load of stats to show Mumford was better than Hickey, but then it was shown that the coached had Hickey in the votes and not Mumford. Anyone who is not delusional and in denial can see they you think you know more than the two AFL coaches involved in the match. Too easy

What I do know is

I know more than you?...

Why the question mark? You doubting yourself BM.

But hey, that's just subjective... Like your opinion of Watts... And a lot of other unsupported commentary you dribble...

Still carrying on about some opposition player. Maybe you should try supporting your own teams players instead of calling them gumby then spending post after post after post trying to defend the indefensible.

Who got in the best for GWS against us... Perhaps look it up

[/quote]

Did you know that 30% of motorcycle riders are either impotent, incontinent, or a combination of both - Perhaps look it up

Still haven't the balls to answer who the clubs are that are laughing at us over the MacEvoy trade. Strangely silent on that. Bit too hard for the bloke who claim to know more than me.

Hilarious

[BigMart]

Dragit I wasn't taking to you?

P66
What if that hand ball comes from a hardball get contest and puts a player in the open... Who then draws a defender and hand balls it over the top into the goal square to a player on his own... Who dribbles through an uncontested kick from 1m out?
What is worth more... The handball or the goal.

At a centre clearance ... The ball is in dispute, Lenny Hayes disposes an opposition player, with a huge tackle, Armo hand balls under pressure to Joey and spots up Nick uncontested mark 35 m out... He kick a goal. What is the most valuable possession

Tom Hickey takes a boundary throw in, taps it into the path of Stevent who beats two, handballs to Billings in space... Who snaps an uncontested kick from 15m... Most valuable possession?

Nick Riewoldt makes a third lead into a fwd pocket and his opponent can't keep up... Fishers kicks a simple 40 m pass and he marks. He goes back and slots it from 45 near the boundary.

All different situations

A game is made up of a thousand moments.... The most important moments are the ones that create a goal... And they are not necessarily the last part of the chain
What makes one part more significant.... The importance of the possession in creating the goal. Some POSESSIONS are more difficult in degree than others.

Kicking a goal isn't as difficult as winning a contest, really
Doing both... Well that's worth double or even triple in my book

[BigMart]

Thought so JB

You didn't quote the comment where I stated I know more than AFL coaches

What is watts again? Seriously.... Not the same as those silly old coaches you seem to know more than?

Oh, and you can also win a game by limiting opposition also.... There is two parts to the game.

JB
Have a rest... If you don't care for my opinion, ignore it... Like I do wrt yours generally... Only biting here because you're pathetically attacking me?



And on your last point, read a little more carefully, you'll find your answer...



I tell you what... If Tom is a permanent member of our 22 at the end of the year and still playing well, I'll concede he is a good player... As it stands I have stated constantly he played a good game. He's far from sold yet.
You're attack on McEvoy is he couldn't ruck
Hate to break it to you... We have been thumped in the ruck contests in every game. And that's pretty straight fwd. Tom has played well in 2 games around the ground.

Btw
How do you rate Cain Ackland?

[stinger]

Thought so JB

You didn't quote the comment where I stated I know more than AFL coaches

What is watts again? Seriously.... Not the same as those silly old coaches you seem to know more than?

Oh, and you can also win a game by limiting opposition also.... There is two parts to the game.

JB
Have a rest... If you don't care for my opinion, ignore it... Like I do wrt yours generally... Only biting here because you're pathetically attacking me?



And on your last point, read a little more carefully, you'll find your answer...



I tell you what... If Tom is a permanent member of our 22 at the end of the year and still playing well, I'll concede he is a good player... As it stands I have stated constantly he played a good game. He's far from sold yet.
You're attack on McEvoy is he couldn't ruck
Hate to break it to you... We have been thumped in the ruck contests in every game. And that's pretty straight fwd. Tom has played well in 2 games around the ground.

Btw
How do you rate Cain Ackland?

do what i do...simply ignore him... works for me......makes me feel a whole lot better about myself and this forum.....i made a promise to myself never again to get sucked in by the forum bullies..

..you do manage to keep civil thpugh...better than i ever could....

[dragit]

Dragit I wasn't taking to you?

Is that a question?
Cause that's what I was asking you.
who the feck would know most of the time.

is quote. is good. is helpful. is understandy. is civil.

[joffaboy]

Thought so JB

You didn't quote the comment where I stated I know more than AFL coaches

What is watts again? Seriously.... Not the same as those silly old coaches you seem to know more than?

Oh, and you can also win a game by limiting opposition also.... There is two parts to the game.

JB
Have a rest... If you don't care for my opinion, ignore it... Like I do wrt yours generally... Only biting here because you're pathetically attacking me?



And on your last point, read a little more carefully, you'll find your answer...



I tell you what... If Tom is a permanent member of our 22 at the end of the year and still playing well, I'll concede he is a good player... As it stands I have stated constantly he played a good game. He's far from sold yet.
You're attack on McEvoy is he couldn't ruck
Hate to break it to you... We have been thumped in the ruck contests in every game. And that's pretty straight fwd. Tom has played well in 2 games around the ground.

Btw
How do you rate Cain Ackland?

Answer the question. You said other clubs (plural) were laughing at us?

So name them and give us quotes where they were laughing at us. Yup laughing at Dunstan, Acres, and Savage for a ruckman on a par with our current one.

we all know who is being laughed at. And so do you.

Dont know about Cain Ackland, got any quasi faux stats or simplistic rating system to help me. You probably rate him higher than Hickey

[BigMart]

He did finish 8th in the B&F in 2005... There's a stat... Don't the coaches vote on the B&F?

Btw please provide a quote (since you're so good at it?) of these comments about other club(s)

I was certainly disappointed when we traded a very good player (a fair way ahead of Hickey) maybe you need to check some stats... He was worth a lot more than pick 18 (he was initially pick 9 and now fully developed)
But we got Longer... Worth a way, way lot more than we paid...
Everyone isn't laughing at Brisbane though, it's more pity for them... Which is worse

We got a good one it seems with Luke
That's good drafting... Not anything to do with the trade

Get your head around. We did not get Dunstan for McEvoy
They are done at separate times
We got Pick 18 which we thankfully got Dunstan with... Any club could have selected him earlier.... There were no assurances he would be available... There are no assurances that he will be A Grade yet? However it looks likely

Good drafting is separate from trading

Btw
Acres hasen't played a game (like Hartung), Dunstan looks great, Savage was offloaded for obvious reason.
Pick 19-24 whatever
Savage whatever

Dunstan... Looks good compensation.... But we didn't know that until we got to call his name out

[matrix]

[defacto]

Cripps has now had 4 coaches in 4 years and it seems all want to play him but hey they are all wrong and you are right. 2 soft goals. Someone has to kick them and a lot of small forward goals can be soft. Im guessing their coach was wrapped with him kicking 2 soft goals considering how close the game was. I certainly wish he missed both.

As for Hickey I just wish you would stop justifying you being right. I am 100% sure you want to fail to say you were right. Im guessing all other saints supporters who dont rate a Saints player and tell usare hoping to be proven wrong but not you.

i disagree on cripps. he can pull that s*** against the likes of melbourne, doggies and us but do that against hawthorn or geelong and he will be an absolute liability

he only worked himself into the game on the weekend because our midfield died in the ass and the eagles midfield started to get on top. i'd take newnes and wrights game over cripps any day of the week

i dont see him lasting long at wce

[plugger66]

Dragit I wasn't taking to you?

P66
What if that hand ball comes from a hardball get contest and puts a player in the open... Who then draws a defender and hand balls it over the top into the goal square to a player on his own... Who dribbles through an uncontested kick from 1m out?
What is worth more... The handball or the goal.

At a centre clearance ... The ball is in dispute, Lenny Hayes disposes an opposition player, with a huge tackle, Armo hand balls under pressure to Joey and spots up Nick uncontested mark 35 m out... He kick a goal. What is the most valuable possession

Tom Hickey takes a boundary throw in, taps it into the path of Stevent who beats two, handballs to Billings in space... Who snaps an uncontested kick from 15m... Most valuable possession?

Nick Riewoldt makes a third lead into a fwd pocket and his opponent can't keep up... Fishers kicks a simple 40 m pass and he marks. He goes back and slots it from 45 near the boundary.

All different situations

A game is made up of a thousand moments.... The most important moments are the ones that create a goal... And they are not necessarily the last part of the chain
What makes one part more significant.... The importance of the possession in creating the goal. Some POSESSIONS are more difficult in degree than others.

Kicking a goal isn't as difficult as winning a contest, really
Doing both... Well that's worth double or even triple in my book

And what if the goal is from a free down field. Thats why i used the term most times a goal is more important than a handball. I love the way you use extreme examples to say why a hanball could be equal to a goal. How is this extreme example. A player handballs through for the what the umpire decides is deliberate and he gets the same points even though he lost 6 points to the side as a player who 7 bounces and avoids 5 tackles and kicks from a goal from 60. See anyone can make up examples but 95% of the time a goal is worth more than a handball. I cant believe you are arguing any other way. Well I can because you wouldnt admit wrong if 99.9% of people said it was wrong. And there are numerous examples of that.

A goal is the most valuable possession on the ground. Well I believe champion data think that but like AFL coaches you have both covered. Amazing stuff.

[plugger66]

Cripps has now had 4 coaches in 4 years and it seems all want to play him but hey they are all wrong and you are right. 2 soft goals. Someone has to kick them and a lot of small forward goals can be soft. Im guessing their coach was wrapped with him kicking 2 soft goals considering how close the game was. I certainly wish he missed both.

As for Hickey I just wish you would stop justifying you being right. I am 100% sure you want to fail to say you were right. Im guessing all other saints supporters who dont rate a Saints player and tell usare hoping to be proven wrong but not you.

i disagree on cripps. he can pull that s*** against the likes of melbourne, doggies and us but do that against hawthorn or geelong and he will be an absolute liability

he only worked himself into the game on the weekend because our midfield died in the ass and the eagles midfield started to get on top. i'd take newnes and wrights game over cripps any day of the week

i dont see him lasting long at wce

But why have 4 coaches continued to play him? He must play against stronger sides as well. he isnt anywhere near a star but what happens now he is better than some suggested.

[joffaboy]

Hilarious - just read a thread where BM was deriding me because I had said the trading period had been a success.

Pointed out to him by numerous posters that trading period and drafting period were different but he would have none of it.

Now he is saying that the trading and drafting process is different - well blow me down

In the same thread stated that McEvoy was only a GOP and Longer would go past him.

But for the past fortnight has been lauding McEvoy like it is the second coming.

Wow our selection committee are crap. They are selecting Hickey ahead of Longer and according to the sage,Longer is better than McEvoy.

lol - really a big lol.

[BigMart]

Yeah, that's accurate

Trading period success can't be measured fully at this point in time....

Following the McEvoy Trade in which we only got in reality a second round pick for a top 10 DP it was poor

We turned the tables two days later and got a top ten pick for a second round pick.

Longer is a younger Ruckman than the other two, and will go past both IMO.

Have never stated McEvoy a gun... Just argued against
1- that he is not any good... Not hard to prove
2- that he is better than Hickey ... Neither is that

Here's a suggestion

How about writing something that resembles accuracy and truth... Rather than being creative to prove a point

Hawthorn knew what they got and were happy with it... Rightly so
We took a positive risk... Which we did with Hall and Spider for a win and loss
Brisbane were bent over a barrel

[Spinner]

Stop the presses.

Dean Cox - a ruckman was just asked on 360 what he preferred to be known as, a good tap ruckman or getting footy around the ground.

Hi response - first of all tap ruckman. second ground work

"My role is to primarily control stoppages and to try and create clearance work and scoring opportunities. That my primary objective"

Reviews ruckwork, ho to advantage, first possession generation and clearances. "That's my primary focus".


Then marks.

And possession not worried about at all.




Wow. A ruckman that knows where his role is to best drive his career and influence his team.





Case. Closed.

Wait - let me post this in the other thread too.

[White Winmar]

Why the question mark? You doubting yourself BM?

It's not that he doubts himself. Heaven forbid, that would be the least of it. He doesn't know how to use a question mark, even though he's a teacher. Didn't you know? He's a TEACHER!

[dragit]

Yeah, that's accurate

Following the McEvoy Trade in which we only got in reality a second round pick for a top 10 DP it was poor

We turned the tables two days later and got a top ten pick for a second round pick.

Speaking of accurate, the first bit is wrong… and do you really think it was just "luck" that Longer ended up with us? Just maybe it was really tightly organised and that's why McEvoy was gone at the very beginning of the trade period?

[lloyd21]

I rate a ruckmans worth with hit outs and rucking ability priority number one.

Those that don't, usually played as forwards .



The effect of rucking is not as objective as 'mark stats' and 'disposals'. That's why some are mistakenly drawn to undervalue the worth of rucking.

Agree with you spinner interesting Leigh Matthews making that comment when a bloke called ....Clark Keating was one of the
main driving forces when Brisbane won their 3 in a row .When Keating lost form so was four in row.

[remboy]

This thread is better than an Abbott and Costello routine. Forget who's on first, we've got Hickey's a gumby:D