best ruckman since spider?

[BigMart]

What's the definition of a good Ruckman?

Possession, Cox

Contested marks,?

Tap outs, Sandilands

Goals?

Each have different strengths.... I'd say hit outs are the most overrated?... They often don't even correlate with clearances, let alone wins

[saintbob]

Gardner's ability to impact on a game makes it quite an easy decision.

Hickey will be better than Big Ben

[gringo]

What's the definition of a good Ruckman?

Possession, Cox

Contested marks,?

Tap outs, Sandilands

Goals?

Each have different strengths.... I'd say hit outs are the most overrated?... They often don't even correlate with clearances, let alone wins

The guys like Cox, sandy, Otten, Nic nat, Goldstien and Leuenburger all have the package, they all win plenty of hit outs but then offer plenty around the ground. Big ben had some nice around the ground work but he was a very poor ruckman. He has time on his side as he's still a very young man for a ruck.

Hickey was equal to him last year around the ground but offers more potential in hit outs. Longer could be even better. Big Ben should go well at the Hawks where they have plenty of midfield talent who can win their own ball but he offers another dimension around the ground. I think he was a great deal for both sides. Win win at this stage but in a few years we could be ahead or behind. Dunstan and Savage look like they will be very handy additions.

[plugger66]

What's the definition of a good Ruckman?

Possession, Cox

Contested marks,?

Tap outs, Sandilands

Goals?

Each have different strengths.... I'd say hit outs are the most overrated?... They often don't even correlate with clearances, let alone wins

The guys like Cox, sandy, Otten, Nic nat, Goldstien and Leuenburger all have the package, they all win plenty of hit outs but then offer plenty around the ground. Big ben had some nice around the ground work but he was a very poor ruckman. He has time on his side as he's still a very young man for a ruck.

Hickey was equal to him last year around the ground but offers more potential in hit outs. Longer could be even better. Big Ben should go well at the Hawks where they have plenty of midfield talent who can win their own ball but he offers another dimension around the ground. I think he was a great deal for both sides. Win win at this stage but in a few years we could be ahead or behind. Dunstan and Savage look like they will be very handy additions.

Seriously these myths about Hickey last year amaze me. Ben was much better than Hickey last year and especially around the ground. I think there was one game where Hickey played better but the rest belonged to Ben. Hickey maybe a better player as may Longer but so far based on anything you want to look at ben is better at the moment. And like BM hit outs maybe just about the most overated stat in footy and I base that on the 6 teams with the top hits out last year only one team made the finals.

[jimmy_slats]

wow this thread certainly opened up a bit of discussion... My friend is still adamant that McEvoy is better due to stats but Gardy will be the one we all remember i feel hence why he is the best for me also interesting to note to all the stats fans out there the saints had the 3rd most hitouts in 09 and the 1st most in 10 when Gardy played all 22 games so he if not the best in the comp was in the best ruck combination in the comp that year..

[gringo]

The guys like Cox, sandy, Otten, Nic nat, Goldstien and Leuenburger all have the package, they all win plenty of hit outs but then offer plenty around the ground. Big ben had some nice around the ground work but he was a very poor ruckman. He has time on his side as he's still a very young man for a ruck.

Hickey was equal to him last year around the ground but offers more potential in hit outs. Longer could be even better. Big Ben should go well at the Hawks where they have plenty of midfield talent who can win their own ball but he offers another dimension around the ground. I think he was a great deal for both sides. Win win at this stage but in a few years we could be ahead or behind. Dunstan and Savage look like they will be very handy additions.

Seriously these myths about Hickey last year amaze me. Ben was much better than Hickey last year and especially around the ground. I think there was one game where Hickey played better but the rest belonged to Ben. Hickey maybe a better player as may Longer but so far based on anything you want to look at ben is better at the moment. And like BM hit outs maybe just about the most overated stat in footy and I base that on the 6 teams with the top hits out last year only one team made the finals.

Except Ben wasn't good around the ground last season. He had a down year compared to his previous year. If you don't win hit outs you want to play very well around the ground. Ben didn't last year. He would have had one very good game early on but he fell away. Hickey looked his equal around the ground but offered more as a tap ruckman. Obviously he is being projected upon as he certainly hasn't made it yet but what we have seen so far this preseason he is going to have a good year. He looks noticeably bigger too. He is probably the one guy I can see making a huge leap forward and being in the top 5 or 6 ruckman in the AFL in the next 2 years.

[plugger66]

The guys like Cox, sandy, Otten, Nic nat, Goldstien and Leuenburger all have the package, they all win plenty of hit outs but then offer plenty around the ground. Big ben had some nice around the ground work but he was a very poor ruckman. He has time on his side as he's still a very young man for a ruck.

Hickey was equal to him last year around the ground but offers more potential in hit outs. Longer could be even better. Big Ben should go well at the Hawks where they have plenty of midfield talent who can win their own ball but he offers another dimension around the ground. I think he was a great deal for both sides. Win win at this stage but in a few years we could be ahead or behind. Dunstan and Savage look like they will be very handy additions.

Seriously these myths about Hickey last year amaze me. Ben was much better than Hickey last year and especially around the ground. I think there was one game where Hickey played better but the rest belonged to Ben. Hickey maybe a better player as may Longer but so far based on anything you want to look at ben is better at the moment. And like BM hit outs maybe just about the most overated stat in footy and I base that on the 6 teams with the top hits out last year only one team made the finals.

Except Ben wasn't good around the ground last season. He had a down year compared to his previous year. If you don't win hit outs you want to play very well around the ground. Ben didn't last year. He would have had one very good game early on but he fell away. Hickey looked his equal around the ground but offered more as a tap ruckman. Obviously he is being projected upon as he certainly hasn't made it yet but what we have seen so far this preseason he is going to have a good year. He looks noticeably bigger too. He is probably the one guy I can see making a huge leap forward and being in the top 5 or 6 ruckman in the AFL in the next 2 years.

Well Im basing my opinion on the whole year and not just a game or two. I am also basing it on watching games and if need be stats as well. Not sure what you are basing your opinion on. Also im unsure how Hickey can be a top 5 ruckman in a couple of years and also give Longer plenty of chances because unless one or both learn to play forward then surely only one true ruckman can play every week.

[bergholt]

Gardiner for mine...just added some excitement to watching the Saints that I can't explain...maybe can't get his round 14 antics in 2009 out of my memory banks.

That was up there with the biggest moments I remember in home and away games. Schwarta's goal against Brisbane in 04, Gehrig's ninth goal to beat North in 03, Milney's 10th against Brisbane in 05, Daniel Wulf hitting the post from the goal square against Sydney in 02.

[Viking3]

What's the definition of a good Ruckman?

Possession, Cox

Contested marks,?

Tap outs, Sandilands

Goals?

Each have different strengths.... I'd say hit outs are the most overrated?... They often don't even correlate with clearances, let alone wins

The guys like Cox, sandy, Otten, Nic nat, Goldstien and Leuenburger all have the package, they all win plenty of hit outs but then offer plenty around the ground. Big ben had some nice around the ground work but he was a very poor ruckman. He has time on his side as he's still a very young man for a ruck.

Hickey was equal to him last year around the ground but offers more potential in hit outs. Longer could be even better. Big Ben should go well at the Hawks where they have plenty of midfield talent who can win their own ball but he offers another dimension around the ground. I think he was a great deal for both sides. Win win at this stage but in a few years we could be ahead or behind. Dunstan and Savage look like they will be very handy additions.

Seriously these myths about Hickey last year amaze me. Ben was much better than Hickey last year and especially around the ground. I think there was one game where Hickey played better but the rest belonged to Ben. Hickey maybe a better player as may Longer but so far based on anything you want to look at ben is better at the moment. And like BM hit outs maybe just about the most overated stat in footy and I base that on the 6 teams with the top hits out last year only one team made the finals.

Not sure how to say this Pluggs, but your observation on McEvoy v Hickey in 2013 is correct!
I feel like the Fonz trying to say he was wrong!

[BigMart]

IMO

Hickey will not be in stk best 22 by mid - year barring injury.... He has limited physical influence on the contest... He is a slow/poor user of the ball.... He lacks aerobic endurance and anaerobic power... His strength, he is tall and moves ok

He is like a stick insect though, an ectomorph.... Winning a few basketball taps ..... Has little to no influence.

McEvoy- massive tank, smart footballer, great contested mark... Albeit it slow, and a poor leap but clever with body position and stronger. McEvoy is a big man now, a far cry from the developing tall on the stk list from 08-11

Gardiner... At full fitness and mentally right.... Was an Elite Ruckman ..... That was possibly for 50 of his 150 games... 45 of those as an Eagle
Serviceable at the saints, with some throwbacks to his best. A very smart and talented Ruckman with a rooted body!!
Gardiner has the honor of perhaps the worst GF game of any player in 2005
He also played a game vs StK which was as dominant a game a Ruckman can play... Possibly vs Spider

[ROLS-LEE]

Hitouts are an important stat.

Take Hawks for a moment. Yes they did not have 1 ruckmen in the top 10 (14-15) but both ruckmen combined had over 800 hitouts between them.
Also if you can be bothered to look at the stats, each year the number of hitouts is increasing. Minson last year had 860, in '09 Jolly was number 1 with 682. In '00 Jeff White had 499 at number 1.
Congestion is increasing, which means more ball ups / throw ins which means more ruck contests.

For all other years to 2000, the Grand finalist teams either had a top 5 ruckmen, or like Port and Brisbane, had multiple ruckmen in the top 20, and sharing the load.

[ROLS-LEE]

IMO

Hickey will not be in stk best 22 by mid - year barring injury.... He has limited physical influence on the contest... He is a slow/poor user of the ball.... He lacks aerobic endurance and anaerobic power... His strength, he is tall and moves ok

He is like a stick insect though, an ectomorph.... Winning a few basketball taps ..... Has little to no influence.

McEvoy- massive tank, smart footballer, great contested mark... Albeit it slow, and a poor leap but clever with body position and stronger. McEvoy is a big man now, a far cry from the developing tall on the stk list from 08-11

Gardiner... At full fitness and mentally right.... Was an Elite Ruckman ..... That was possibly for 50 of his 150 games... 45 of those as an Eagle
Serviceable at the saints, with some throwbacks to his best. A very smart and talented Ruckman with a rooted body!!
Gardiner has the honor of perhaps the worst GF game of any player in 2005
He also played a game vs StK which was as dominant a game a Ruckman can play... Possibly vs Spider

McEvoy massive tank => yes
Smart footballer => No (once found out last year after the Carlton game, Opposition just didn't bomb the ball in. Was ineffective after that game as he continued to do the same)
Great contested mark. => No. Can mark, but how many times did he out mark his opposition ruckmen or the opposition power forward. Not many, generally much smaller opponents.
Slow => Yes very slow
Poor leap => Has contests at Hawthorn now with Hale to see who can get both feet off the ground.
Stronger => Then who?? Crumbing forwards yes, Other ruckmen, no.
Better after '11. => Stats haven't improved post '12

[plugger66]

Hitouts are an important stat.

Take Hawks for a moment. Yes they did not have 1 ruckmen in the top 10 (14-15) but both ruckmen combined had over 800 hitouts between them.
Also if you can be bothered to look at the stats, each year the number of hitouts is increasing. Minson last year had 860, in '09 Jolly was number 1 with 682. In '00 Jeff White had 499 at number 1.
Congestion is increasing, which means more ball ups / throw ins which means more ruck contests.

For all other years to 2000, the Grand finalist teams either had a top 5 ruckmen, or like Port and Brisbane, had multiple ruckmen in the top 20, and sharing the load.

They were important in last years GF and they were important in the whole year. Didnt only side make the finals out of the top 6 sides in hit outs?

[remboy]

Hitouts are an important stat.

Take Hawks for a moment. Yes they did not have 1 ruckmen in the top 10 (14-15) but both ruckmen combined had over 800 hitouts between them.
Also if you can be bothered to look at the stats, each year the number of hitouts is increasing. Minson last year had 860, in '09 Jolly was number 1 with 682. In '00 Jeff White had 499 at number 1.
Congestion is increasing, which means more ball ups / throw ins which means more ruck contests.

For all other years to 2000, the Grand finalist teams either had a top 5 ruckmen, or like Port and Brisbane, had multiple ruckmen in the top 20, and sharing the load.

They were important in last years GF and they were important in the whole year. Didnt only side make the finals out of the top 6 sides in hit outs?

I have to agree that looking at the hit out out stats in isolation is wrong. The stat you want to win is clearances. Doesn't matter whether your ruckman hits it down your midfielders throat or simply does enough to give them the opportunity to win possession.
There was one game very late last season where we were being badly beaten at the centre clearances with McEvoy in the ruck, yet as soon as Hickey replaced him things turned around.
That's not to say Hickey will be better than McEvoy this year, or is better in all departments, but that was the moment for me when I thought Hickey had overtaken McEvoy as a tap ruckman at least. Will probably need a few years to build up his strength to the same level.

[White Winmar]

It's just a hunch at the moment, but I think Longer will be our number one ruck man before long. I also think Hickey is a decent player. An exciting pair for us to look forward to being dominant in years to come.

[gringo]

It's just a hunch at the moment, but I think Longer will be our number one ruck man before long. I also think Hickey is a decent player. An exciting pair for us to look forward to being dominant in years to come.

I think Longer might be tried out as a forward in the shorter term.

[BigMart]

What position does the other half of the pair play whilst one is rucking?

As a fwd, both will be poor.... Watch last night, Ruckman make for poor fwds unless they are elite footballer... Neither of them come close.

I think Longer and Stanley will be an adequate pairing....


What is Hickeys strong suit?

[Moorabbin Man]

Kosi easily


rds 14 - 17 2005.

Agree, by a light year.