Once in a generation player

[st.byron]

Should I actually put up a statistical comparison to illustrate what is meant by a better record... Without McGrath to support him

As far as blokes go
One is humble and respectful

Wasn't Warnie the one betting on games and taking banned substance whilst undergoing a body transformation

Murali a cheat... That's up to the authorities to determine

Go ahead. Put up a statistical comparison. Will it include Murali's 22% of his wickets being against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. 176 out of 800. Warne 17 out of 708. Compare that.
Murali has a better average by 3 but the strike rates are the same. Warne 45% of his wickets at home. Murali 62% of his wickets at home on pitches doctored for him.
What are the stats showing Murali has a better record?

Warne and M.Waugh were idiots. No they didn't bet on games. They gave information to a bookie about how they expected the pitch to play. Naive and stupid.
Warne's banned substance was as innocent as Ahmed Saad's.

Nope, it's not up to the authorities to determine that he cheated his way through his career. I've made my mind up. Every ball was a no-ball. Include that in your statistical comparison.

[supersaints]

If anyone really believes that Warnie took " his mums" drug masking agent twelve hours before a game so " he would look slimmer in a photo shoot the next day, may as well believe the Essendon club and its players have done nothing wrong.
Warnie made one of the most miraculous recoveries ( according to some medical experts) from a shoulder injury in history.
I was informed very, very, reliably that during the enquiry the question of wether he took anabolic steroids (or other drugs) was never raised
The terms of the enquiry was to find out if he was guilty about taking a known masking agent (the diuretic.)
The cricket board, like the AFL had too much at stake to delve as deep as they should have.
The sad thing about us Aussies is we beat our chest to the world about cheats but would never think that have been or there are any cheats in our own yard.
I am not so naive.
To compare to Saad's case is IMO a poor comparison,

[plugger66]

If anyone really believes that Warnie took " his mums" drug masking agent twelve hours before a game so " he would look slimmer in a photo shoot the next day, may as well believe the Essendon club and its players have done nothing wrong.
Warnie made one of the most miraculous recoveries ( according to some medical experts) from a shoulder injury in history.
I was informed very, very, reliably that during the enquiry the question of wether he took anabolic steroids (or other drugs) was never raised
The terms of the enquiry was to find out if he was guilty about taking a known masking agent (the diuretic.)
The cricket board, like the AFL had too much at stake to delve as deep as they should have.
The sad thing about us Aussies is we beat our chest to the world about cheats but would never think that have been or there are any cheats in our own yard.
I am not so naive.
To compare to Saad's case is IMO a poor comparison,

Always loved the very very reliably informed comments. And some medical experts reckon he made a miraculous revovery. I must have missed those experts but happy for you to post it. Warnie did cheat. Its been proven. Murali did cheat but they altered the rules so he didnt cheat. Its like people who use stats to prove how someone played. Well Murali can show us stats that he didnt cheat but like seeing how someone played i just watch the game. Watching it showed Murali was a chucker.

[st.byron]

If anyone really believes that Warnie took " his mums" drug masking agent twelve hours before a game so " he would look slimmer in a photo shoot the next day, may as well believe the Essendon club and its players have done nothing wrong.
Warnie made one of the most miraculous recoveries ( according to some medical experts) from a shoulder injury in history.
I was informed very, very, reliably that during the enquiry the question of wether he took anabolic steroids (or other drugs) was never raised
The terms of the enquiry was to find out if he was guilty about taking a known masking agent (the diuretic.)
The cricket board, like the AFL had too much at stake to delve as deep as they should have.
The sad thing about us Aussies is we beat our chest to the world about cheats but would never think that have been or there are any cheats in our own yard.
I am not so naive.
To compare to Saad's case is IMO a poor comparison,

Just finished reading Gideon Haigh's "On Warne".
He's not an author to pull any punches and he deals extensively with Warne's suspension for taking a banned substance as well as the bookie issue.
Warne was a victim of his own vanity and stupidity.
His recovery from a torn rotator cuff and other shoulder related issues was helped enormously by being out of the game for a year. When he did come back he took time to regain his form. He didn't instantly go back to where he was before the injury. Perhaps the injury and time off were the making of the latter part of his career. He couldn't bowl the flipper any more and didn't regularly 'rip' so many big leg breaks - those two deliveries putting maximum stress on his shoulder. He learned instead to use more guile and subtle variations of the amount of spin.

[stinger]

Murali an offie, both once in a generation players.

t.

one would hope we never have a cheat like him in ten generations....

[supersaints]

You are more than entitled to believe what the book may say, I know nothing personally about Warnes injury . I was told by someone that would know directly, that the very question of wether he took steroids or any other substance other than a masking agent was not asked. If this was an (unlikely) oversight or not , I do not know.
I would hazard a guess its very viable that if you don't want to hear certain answers, don't ask the questions.

[st.byron]

You are more than entitled to believe what the book may say, I know nothing personally about Warnes injury . I was told by someone that would know directly, that the very question of wether he took steroids or any other substance other than a masking agent was not asked. If this was an (unlikely) oversight or not , I do not know.
I would hazard a guess its very viable that if you don't want to hear certain answers, don't ask the questions.

"Someone that would know directly"....that would be?????

Gideon Haigh is one of the most respected cricket journalists in the world. Deeply connected in the game. I'll take his word.

[supersaints]

Obviously I cannot name the source. Believe what you will . I am not implying that Haigh would write lies , but i think he would write what he was told and take it in good faith,
i doubt he was at the ACB hearing?
And if you want to check on Warnes recovery that was from memory 50% quicker than anticipated just google it there is plenty around about his fast recovery
I've now said all I will about The "Hearing" I am sorry I cant give more detail.
As for cheating
Cheated on his wife, girlfriends and fiancé at one time or another
Cheated on his quit smoking sponsors
His other exploits like the bookmakers etc , etc show he is a man of very poor integrity,
He took a banned known masking agent got twelve months , ever thought to wonder why you would take a duretic just prior to a match to loose Fluid when you need to actually increase your water intake to avoid de- hydration.

Have not said it yet , but agree the other fellow was a " chucker"

[st.byron]

Obviously I cannot name the source. Believe what you will . I am not implying that Haigh would write lies , but i think he would write what he was told and take it in good faith,
i doubt he was at the ACB hearing?
And if you want to check on Warnes recovery that was from memory 50% quicker than anticipated just google it there is plenty around about his fast recovery
I've now said all I will about The "Hearing" I am sorry I cant give more detail.
As for cheating
Cheated on his wife, girlfriends and fiancé at one time or another
Cheated on his quit smoking sponsors
His other exploits like the bookmakers etc , etc show he is a man of very poor integrity,
He took a banned known masking agent got twelve months , ever thought to wonder why you would take a duretic just prior to a match to loose Fluid when you need to actually increase your water intake to avoid de- hydration.

Have not said it yet , but agree the other fellow was a " chucker"

As Haigh writes in his book, quoting Warne in a one on one interview, "The trouble is Gideon, that people who've never met me think they know all about me."

[BigMart]

Well Shane,

Perhaps get off twitter, out of the tabloids, stop weighing into every debate, stop critisising every captain because you were too big a dick to be made one, stop commentating poorly, stop continually putting youself in a headline

And people won't comment as 'if' they know you?!


Shane was an enormous bowler, no doubt... Murali better IMO, not much.... But the edge given the weakness of his team and the fact he bowled in tougher situation as a solo act... Basically, face him out of the attack... And beat Sri Lanka

No McGrath, Gillespie, Lee

IMO Murali was

Harder to read, which is why his stats better across the board.... Right up until they finished 20/20 last year.....

On personality
Unlike their bowling... No comparison

[plugger66]

Well Shane,

Perhaps get off twitter, out of the tabloids, stop weighing into every debate, stop critisising every captain because you were too big a dick to be made one, stop commentating poorly, stop continually putting youself in a headline

And people won't comment as 'if' they know you?!


Shane was an enormous bowler, no doubt... Murali better IMO, not much.... But the edge given the weakness of his team and the fact he bowled in tougher situation as a solo act... Basically, face him out of the attack... And beat Sri Lanka

No McGrath, Gillespie, Lee

IMO Murali was

Harder to read, which is why his stats better across the board.... Right up until they finished 20/20 last year.....

On personality
Unlike their bowling... No comparison

That posts fails to address the issue and that is Murali was a cheat until they changed the rules. And tell us how many times you have met Warnie. I would have spoken to him maybe 100 times admittedily before the age of 25 but you would never meet a nicer guy. Obviously he has changed but at least i have some experience to go by. Maybe you do as well afterall you keep calling him Shane.

[Zed]

Back to the OP... Does anybody know if next years draft pool has a once in a generation player ? .. We could do with the next Reiwoldt or Judd.

[plugger66]

Back to the OP... Does anybody know if next years draft pool has a once in a generation player ? .. We could do with the next Reiwoldt or Judd.

It has 2 but neither of them are our picks.

[whiskers3614]

I once had a deep conversation with Warne:
He Said: 400
I Said: raise to 1600
He said: Reraise all in

[st.byron]

That posts fails to address the issue and that is Murali was a cheat until they changed the rules. And tell us how many times you have met Warnie. I would have spoken to him maybe 100 times admittedily before the age of 25 but you would never meet a nicer guy. Obviously he has changed but at least i have some experience to go by. Maybe you do as well afterall you keep calling him Shane.

Haigh said the same thing about Warne. Very very likeable and personable. A kind of what you see is what you get guy.

Clearly some people have big fat issues with his personal stuff. He's never said he wasn't wrong or didn't stuff up.

And Warne's stats are easily a match for Chucker. Depends which way you slice and dice 'em. Murali might not have had McGrath et al backing him, but he sure had the Sri Lankan curators on his side. 62% of his wickets at home. 16% of them at home vs Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

[saintsRrising]

Should I actually put up a statistical comparison to illustrate what is meant by a better record...

I think that one spinner also played a lot more games on turning wickets, and also against the weaker nations....

[BigMart]

This should be on cricinfo.... Anyways

Slow sub continent Turning wickets are not critical to a leg spinners performance.... Compared pace and bounce of pitch

Best grounds to bowl leg spin in the world

SCG, Adelaide, Old Trafford, Gabba, The Oval, Colombo

Check out Warnes best grounds statistically.... You'll find probably Brisbane at the top

Warnes record on the sub continent was average (They play spin well)

Murali's record like most offies was poor in Aus (note he refused to play here at his peak)

To say Murali had the advantage of bowling on the SC is moot.... They play spin better than any other bats in the world...
More games against Anglos and he'd still have big numbers


Murali was a genius... The legality of his action was debated by better judges than us.... And passed

So whilst novice opinion likes to think he's a 'cheat' whatever that means..... Experts opinion suggest otherwise

[BigMart]

You talkin to me?

Where's the quotes you used to whinge about? Or does it show them in original posts?

Either way?

Best bloke you'll ever meet... Maybe you met too many great people? I'd suggest your best mate Lenny is a better bloke?!
A little more humble? A little more articulate, a little more respectful, a little more loyal, a little more honest? a little more respected?!

Some of the blokes at the Melbourne stars might suggest otherwise.... Perhaps someone who returned there this year

He was like a one man circus.... And the team was irrelevant

[plugger66]

You talkin to me?

Where's the quotes you used to whinge about? Or does it show them in original posts?

Either way?

Best bloke you'll ever meet... Maybe you met too many great people? I'd suggest your best mate Lenny is a better bloke?!
A little more humble? A little more articulate, a little more respectful, a little more loyal, a little more honest? a little more respected?!

Some of the blokes at the Melbourne stars might suggest otherwise.... Perhaps someone who returned there this year

He was like a one man circus.... And the team was irrelevant

Did i say best bloke you will ever meet? No but again i wouldnt expect anything less from you to prove again you are wrong. I said you wouldnt meet a nicer guy and I also said it was 20 or so years ago and he has obviously changed. And why is lenny my best mate? I have never said that once. you are continuing to lie. I know Lenny well but he is far from my best mate. If you knew him like me i suppose he would be your only mate. You still cant ignore me. Its so funny. nearly as funny as you justifing Murali bowling because they changed the rules to make it legal.

[St Ick]

Should I actually put up a statistical comparison to illustrate what is meant by a better record...

I think that one spinner also played a lot more games on turning wickets, and also against the weaker nations....

Absolutely agree, and I wouldn't compare him to Warne for a second. But he is still a once in a generation player.

[Mr Magic]

Surely the fact that the authorities chose to change the rules to allow Murali to bowl 'legally' make him a 'once in a generation' player.
I cannot recall any other player in the last 50 years having the rules changed because of him.

As for BigMarts assertion about the best pitches in the world to bowl leg spin on, what are their records without Warne's wickets included.
Are they on that list because of Warne?
Similarly are the pitches in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe not on the list because Warne didn't play there too often?

[st.byron]

Slow sub continent Turning wickets are not critical to a leg spinners performance.... Compared pace and bounce of pitch

Best grounds to bowl leg spin in the world

SCG, Adelaide, Old Trafford, Gabba, The Oval, Colombo

Check out Warnes best grounds statistically.... You'll find probably Brisbane at the top

Warnes record on the sub continent was average (They play spin well)

Murali's record like most offies was poor in Aus (note he refused to play here at his peak)

To say Murali had the advantage of bowling on the SC is moot.... They play spin better than any other bats in the world...
More games against Anglos and he'd still have big numbers


Murali was a genius... The legality of his action was debated by better judges than us.... And passed

So whilst novice opinion likes to think he's a 'cheat' whatever that means..... Experts opinion suggest otherwise

I don't think you've done your research on this.

No idea how you came up with that list of the best places to bowl leg-spin. Have you got any stats to back that up? Or is it a personal opinion with no stats to support it? By that logic Perth and Sabina Park should be right at the top as well.

Warne's record in India was average. His record in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan was excellent. Also worthy of nothing is that Warne played 9 tests in India, six of them during the 1998 and 2001 tours, either side of the least productive period in his career due to injury. On the 2004 Indian tour he took 14 wickets at 30. Strike rate 60. Not up to the standard of the rest of his career but not rubbish either.

Brisbane is at the top of the list for wickets taken by Warne. Closely followed by Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide. You'd expect that. He played more than a third of his test matches on these grounds.
More pertinent to assessing his performance at different grounds is his strike rate at each venue. Then you can compare apples with apples.

A look at that list :

Kandy Strike rate 25.6
Sharjah 25.8
Sara Oval Colombo 30.0
Galle 39.6
Chittagong 40.7
Eden Park 43.5
Christchurch 43.7
Trent Bridge 44.4
The Oval 47.1
Karachi 47.3

They're the top ten venues for Warne by strike rate. From your list The Oval comes in at 9. Sinhalese Sports Stadium in Colombo doesn't rate a mention. Sara Oval in Colombo at 3.

6 of the top ten are sub-continent. They might play spin well but not Warne.
2 are NZ. 2 are England.

The legality of Murali's action wasn't determined by better judges than us. Once they changed the rules and his illegal deliveries suddenly became legal, then the 'rules' were on his side.
There's no getting round though, that the rules were changed specifically to allow a cheating chucker to continue playing. They were changed for slimy power political reasons and those people are not better judges than you or I.

[stinger]

Well Shane,

Perhaps get off twitter, out of the tabloids, stop weighing into every debate, stop critisising every captain because you were too big a dick to be made one, stop commentating poorly, stop continually putting youself in a headline

And people won't comment as 'if' they know you?!


Shane was an enormous bowler, no doubt... Murali better IMO, not much.... But the edge given the weakness of his team and the fact he bowled in tougher situation as a solo act... Basically, face him out of the attack... And beat Sri Lanka

No McGrath, Gillespie, Lee

IMO Murali was

Harder to read, which is why his stats better across the board.... Right up until they finished 20/20 last year.....

On personality
Unlike their bowling... No comparison

warnie was a bowler.......the other guy threw the ball.....no comparison imhfo....none at all....nice guy though..or so i'm
told....they actually changed the laws of cricket to make his action legal........would not have done that if he was an aussie or a pom....kiwi even....

[st.byron]

warnie was a bowler.......the other guy threw the ball.....no comparison imhfo....none at all....nice guy though..or so i'm
told....they actually changed the laws of cricket to make his action legal........would not have done that if he was an aussie or a pom....kiwi even....

Yep. +1. Number of legal deliveries bowled by Murali in his test career = 0.

[BigMart]

Mmm

Stats can tell a whole lot of stories can't they?

Good figures in Sri Lanka... Perhaps helped by a couple of tours when Sri Lanka were not far from minnows status

Sharjah... Who did he play there? And where were they positioned in world rankings ATT?

What exactly was Warne's record like on the slowest Bunsen burners .... In India?

Say it again.... Warne much preferred wickets with bounce and pace than massive sideways grip, which takes pace of the ball... Most over spinning leggies do? Apart from Kimble, more a top spin bowler who bowled 10k quicker than most wrist spinners.

The argument of whether Murali had a legal action is separate from who is the better performed bowler?!