Riewoldt and Montagna elite - champion data

[Cairnsman]

But it is the same for every single player in the AFL. I think there just arent many gun small forwards so he is in the top 10%. CD make a decision on complete fact and arent claiming anything else. People can argue about how they give points but they cant argue on who is elite based on the points. Others rate elite on complete opinion.

Instead of categorising elite by using the top 10% of figures achieved season-by-season wouldn't a better way be to use benchmark figures that have been derived from figures achieved by some of the greats in each position over their entire career. So for example a small forward would reach elite level when his figures reach figures that are say pretty close to Milnes. If you are a midfielder then your figures would have to be somewhere up near Judd or Abblets, if you are a CHF then they would have to be up near Roos and so on.

To me CD shouldn't be classifying elite players on figures based on one isolated season for the reason(s) already alluded to because you could have a season like last year where the figures for a particular position like small forwards were very low.
The cynic in me thinks it would suit CD though to leave it the way it is because it is desirable to have figures that cause debate and brings discussion and focus on CD.

They could do it anyway they want to but they decided to rank it on last season. Seems the best way to it IMO. The game has changed to much to worry about previous stuff. I have no idea why people even care. CD made players elite if they were in the top 10% in their position last season. People can choose to ignore it or accept it. I choose to ignore it.

Just discussing stuff and in particular what is 'elite and how it is judged?...obviously CD have their criteria which obviously could differ from how others judge 'elite' but their outputs certainly raise interesting questions like what type of stats does CD collect/use for each position, are the stats the same for each position or do they use position specific stats. I think it would be interesting to know some more about the figures that the 10% calculation is being applied too. The top 10% in a position doesn't really tell you much, fair enough CD only choose to use the data from the previous season however CD lose relevancy with those that choose to ask questions it they aren't transparent with the data they use or how they apply it..IMO.

[plugger66]

Instead of categorising elite by using the top 10% of figures achieved season-by-season wouldn't a better way be to use benchmark figures that have been derived from figures achieved by some of the greats in each position over their entire career. So for example a small forward would reach elite level when his figures reach figures that are say pretty close to Milnes. If you are a midfielder then your figures would have to be somewhere up near Judd or Abblets, if you are a CHF then they would have to be up near Roos and so on.

To me CD shouldn't be classifying elite players on figures based on one isolated season for the reason(s) already alluded to because you could have a season like last year where the figures for a particular position like small forwards were very low.
The cynic in me thinks it would suit CD though to leave it the way it is because it is desirable to have figures that cause debate and brings discussion and focus on CD.

They could do it anyway they want to but they decided to rank it on last season. Seems the best way to it IMO. The game has changed to much to worry about previous stuff. I have no idea why people even care. CD made players elite if they were in the top 10% in their position last season. People can choose to ignore it or accept it. I choose to ignore it.

Just discussing stuff and in particular what is 'elite and how it is judged?...obviously CD have their criteria which obviously could differ from how others judge 'elite' but their outputs certainly raise interesting questions like what type of stats does CD collect/use for each position, are the stats the same for each position or do they use position specific stats. I think it would be interesting to know some more about the figures that the 10% calculation is being applied too. The top 10% in a position doesn't really tell you much, fair enough CD only choose to use the data from the previous season however CD lose relevancy with those that choose to ask questions it they aren't transparent with the data they use or how they apply it..IMO.

I doubt CD are worried about losing relevency to some people. All clubs use their stats as do just about ever other publication. And like all good stats they change the scoring system and certain stats used as the game changes. All I know about CD is the final points tally for each game equals 3001 or something like that every single game whether one side loses by 20 goals or one point.

[Cairnsman]

They could do it anyway they want to but they decided to rank it on last season. Seems the best way to it IMO. The game has changed to much to worry about previous stuff. I have no idea why people even care. CD made players elite if they were in the top 10% in their position last season. People can choose to ignore it or accept it. I choose to ignore it.

Just discussing stuff and in particular what is 'elite and how it is judged?...obviously CD have their criteria which obviously could differ from how others judge 'elite' but their outputs certainly raise interesting questions like what type of stats does CD collect/use for each position, are the stats the same for each position or do they use position specific stats. I think it would be interesting to know some more about the figures that the 10% calculation is being applied too. The top 10% in a position doesn't really tell you much, fair enough CD only choose to use the data from the previous season however CD lose relevancy with those that choose to ask questions it they aren't transparent with the data they use or how they apply it..IMO.

I doubt CD are worried about losing relevency to some people. All clubs use their stats as do just about ever other publication. And like all good stats they change the scoring system and certain stats used as the game changes. All I know about CD is the final points tally for each game equals 3001 or something like that every single game whether one side loses by 20 goals or one point.

Without knowing why a final points tally would be 3001 it's hard to comment and it's as arbitrary and mystifying to me as saying it's the top 10% of an unknown figure. Interestingly too is that Ted Hopkins himself finds a lot of what CD produce these days as confusing.

[BigMart]

You obviously never met me Cairnsman... Or seen me play footy? Some on here have seen me have a kick, and although I've never met you, I take smart arses like you to the cleaners, and enjoy doing it.

You and P66 teaming up... Do you feel tough?

[plugger66]

You obviously never met me Cairnsman... Or seen me play footy? Some on here have seen me have a kick, and although I've never met you, I take smart arses like you to the cleaners, and enjoy doing it.

You and P66 teaming up... Do you feel tough?

What are you on about? If I wanted to have a go at you I wouldnt need anyone else to do it. Its a really weird post for no apparent reason.

[Cairnsman]

You obviously never met me Cairnsman... Or seen me play footy? Some on here have seen me have a kick, and although I've never met you, I take smart arses like you to the cleaners, and enjoy doing it.

You and P66 teaming up... Do you feel tough?

I haven't seen you kick but I've spoken to someone that has and they reckon for a full figured bloke you kick like a chicken.

[Goddard Magic]

Anyone concerned that the only two elites that we have are on the wrong side of 30?

[Con Gorozidis]

Anyone concerned that the only two elites that we have are on the wrong side of 30?

Yep. Most of us.

At this stage only Jack (and maybe Dylan) look realistically capable of becoming elite in the next 3 years by which time Joey and Roo would have either declined or retired.

Looking at it just from now - We may only have 1 elite player in 1-2 years time (Jack).

But of course we live in hope!

The next star/breakout is always just around the next corner

[Con Gorozidis]

I find these ratings quite objective

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Rati ... lda-Saints

[gringo]

Anyone concerned that the only two elites that we have are on the wrong side of 30?

Yep. Most of us.

At this stage only Jack (and maybe Dylan) look realistically capable of becoming elite in the next 3 years by which time Joey and Roo would have either declined or retired.

Looking at it just from now - We may only have 1 elite player in 1-2 years time (Jack).

But of course we live in hope!

The next star/breakout is always just around the next corner

I really rate Armo who has been a slow build up but he had some outstanding games last year. He needs to iron out the quietish games and he could easily be elite. He's as hard as a cats head, aggressive and like a goal. He doesn't need much to become an outstanding player his best is like a combination of Kieran Jack and Luke ball with a bit of of wrecking ball mixed in.

[plugger66]

Anyone concerned that the only two elites that we have are on the wrong side of 30?

Yep. Most of us.

At this stage only Jack (and maybe Dylan) look realistically capable of becoming elite in the next 3 years by which time Joey and Roo would have either declined or retired.

Looking at it just from now - We may only have 1 elite player in 1-2 years time (Jack).

But of course we live in hope!

The next star/breakout is always just around the next corner

I really rate Armo who has been a slow build up but he had some outstanding games last year. He needs to iron out the quietish games and he could easily be elite. He's as hard as a cats head, aggressive and like a goal. He doesn't need much to become an outstanding player his best is like a combination of Kieran Jack and Luke ball with a bit of of wrecking ball mixed in.

He is taking his time if he is going to be elite. Still probably only our 6th or 7th best player and we finished 3rd bottom and he has been in the system 6 full years. Cant see him ever being elite but may have 3 or 4 elite games a year.

[BigMart]

Is a player who is rarely beaten, but doesn't rack up CD stats considered

Like S Dempster?

Who also took quite a while to become a very good player.... went from good to VG at 27/28yo

On Armo.... He has an impact beyond his stats... Physical presence Defensive and offensive is as important through the middle as racking up numbers....

He's a good player.... He impacts the contest... But drifts out due to his style of play

[Con Gorozidis]

Is a player who is rarely beaten, but doesn't rack up CD stats considered

Like S Dempster?

Who also took quite a while to become a very good player.... went from good to VG at 27/28yo

On Armo.... He has an impact beyond his stats... Physical presence Defensive and offensive is as important through the middle as racking up numbers....

He's a good player.... He impacts the contest... But drifts out due to his style of play

Yes I believe CD do take into account those kind of things for players who play different positions.
I think they try to match the position to the criteria and use some qualitative factors. As best they can anyways.

[plugger66]

Is a player who is rarely beaten, but doesn't rack up CD stats considered

Like S Dempster?

Who also took quite a while to become a very good player.... went from good to VG at 27/28yo

On Armo.... He has an impact beyond his stats... Physical presence Defensive and offensive is as important through the middle as racking up numbers....

He's a good player.... He impacts the contest... But drifts out due to his style of play

What style of play makes you drift out of games. never heard such a thing. If you can play well in one game and be consistant throughout that game then why cant you do it in another game unless of course he changed his style of play in the game he played well in.

[gringo]

Is a player who is rarely beaten, but doesn't rack up CD stats considered

Like S Dempster?

Who also took quite a while to become a very good player.... went from good to VG at 27/28yo

On Armo.... He has an impact beyond his stats... Physical presence Defensive and offensive is as important through the middle as racking up numbers....

He's a good player.... He impacts the contest... But drifts out due to his style of play

What style of play makes you drift out of games. never heard such a thing. If you can play well in one game and be consistant throughout that game then why cant you do it in another game unless of course he changed his style of play in the game he played well in.

He tended to have a great game where he was probably close to BOG which would alert the next weeks opposition coach who would have some one block his access to the ball the following week. He probably is at a similar point to Dal where he needs techniques to counteract added attention.

On his chances of becoming elite, he still hasn't played much footy. Ross probably only gave him about 30 or 40 games then got played every game for the last 2 years under Watters. He still hasn't played 100 games which is still pretty inexperienced despite being there forever.

[BigMart]

Oh, I dunno plugger? Ill give it a crack.... Why one may not be consistently damaging.

Perhaps he has a different role? Is in a different position, different opponent, different gamestyle by opponent, body may not be as good, form dips... A variety of reasons really?! But hey, you know you're stuff?

A style of game that creates inconsistency during the game
A much more anaerobic style crash and bash, rather than continual running link player... A player who is both offensive and defensive minded and pressures opponents and doesn't cheat to get easy kicks...,

Example
Jude Bolton vs Jarred McVeigh
One has a big impact with his impact around the contest, the other task up the numbers...

P66... It sound as though you've never had a kick, with such a naive comment.

[plugger66]

Oh, I dunno plugger? Ill give it a crack.... Why one may not be consistently damaging.

Perhaps he has a different role? Is in a different position, different opponent, different gamestyle by opponent, body may not be as good, form dips... A variety of reasons really?! But hey, you know you're stuff?

A style of game that creates inconsistency during the game
A much more anaerobic style crash and bash, rather than continual running link player... A player who is both offensive and defensive minded and pressures opponents and doesn't cheat to get easy kicks...,

Example
Jude Bolton vs Jarred McVeigh
One has a big impact with his impact around the contest, the other task up the numbers...

P66... It sound as though you've never had a kick, with such a naive comment.

Well as per usual you are wrong. Funny that for all the reasons you said he may struggle in this post you never mentioned his style of play as one of the reasons. looks like you can change your mind like the wind. Funny also that you mention me never having a kick. Are you going to tell Sainterk she knows bugger all about the game? The more I hear from you the more I realise that what you learn on the field means bugger all with your knowledge of the game. Its actually laughable with some of the things you come upe with to prove nothing. this is a good example of that.