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rodgerfox wrote:The other thing about Moneyball and Lyon, and why I found it an interesting situation, is that I wonder how the 'Moneyball' strategy leaves your list long term in AFL footy?
Moneyball is clearly about getting in new players for the now. You need something right now, so you get it. In AFL footy, if you need something now and go and get it - you can have some pretty serious holes in a very short time.
I think this is the very reason that we found our list fall away so quickly. I think Lyon's version of Moneyball doesn't work in AFL footy in the medium-long term. Sure, you get your short term gain, but is it worth the medium-long term pain?
I guess if you wn a flag, then of course it is! But if you don't - you're in deep s*** for some time to come!
I saw Freo's drafting and the first thing I thought of was Moneyball again! He's trying to fill a need. Now. I see it as pretty much exactly the same thing as at the Saints.
It's going to be fascinating to see how this pans out.
You need to watch the movie again maybe another 100 times cos it's clear you can't even get the concept right about moneyball let alone try and apply it to another sport.
You need to take a good look hard look at yourself and get over your teenage heartthrob obsession with Ross Lyon.
It's sad, weird, yet completely hilarious.
If you're going to put posters up on your bedroom wall of someone and idolise them like a school girl crush, why not choose someone who has actually been successful?
Maybe I misunderstood the 'Moneyball' concept from the movie, but isn't it a case of EVERY YEAR you utilize the statistics to make list changes to best suit your needs?
Therefore there is no medium/long term effect to your list as you're going to make those decisions on a yearly basis in a sport that is not subject to a salary cap, unlike AFL football which is subject to a salary cap.
IMHO you cannot compare the 2 sports for that very reason vis-à-vis 'moneyball'.
Mr Magic wrote:Maybe I misunderstood the 'Moneyball' concept from the movie, but isn't it a case of EVERY YEAR you utilize the statistics to make list changes to best suit your needs?
Therefore there is no medium/long term effect to your list as you're going to make those decisions on a yearly basis in a sport that is not subject to a salary cap, unlike AFL football which is subject to a salary cap.
IMHO you cannot compare the 2 sports for that very reason vis-à-vis 'moneyball'.
Pretty sure i interpreted the moneyball concept as bringing in certain players who may not be that gifted in an all round sense , however they are good at one particular skill and if you get the right "mix" of these players and a great strategy you can have a great team. If you cant see the similarities of that against the 09/10 team especialy with our second and third rung players , well then either i have no idea or you dont.
Mr Magic wrote:Maybe I misunderstood the 'Moneyball' concept from the movie, but isn't it a case of EVERY YEAR you utilize the statistics to make list changes to best suit your needs?
Therefore there is no medium/long term effect to your list as you're going to make those decisions on a yearly basis in a sport that is not subject to a salary cap, unlike AFL football which is subject to a salary cap.
IMHO you cannot compare the 2 sports for that very reason vis-à-vis 'moneyball'.
I think that's precisely the reason it didn't work for us, and won't ever work for Lyon in the AFL.
Hilariously ridiculous comparison. Takes the vendetta towards Lyon by the OP to a whole new level of conspiracy. Laughable. Oh Btw Vietnam is a great place to holiday. Another week here. Keep the laughs coming. Funniest thread of the year.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
2009 was our real chance, because we were genuinely good enough.
But Lyon made a terrible call in choosing to play a sick Zac Dawson over a fit Max Hudghton. An even worse call to play Raph Clarke (not a basher - just felt he would be a liability in a tight match against a team who applied great pressure).
Then, in the game, we missed countless scoring opportunities. Our poor skills came to haunt us at the wrong time.
In 2010, we were cooked at half-time and lucky to be in it - and only ground our way back because of the group's inert belief and Collingwood's frazzling on the big stage.
I attended a function where Ross Lyon was guest speaker answering questions.
Ross has a way of speaking and looking at the game that is different than anyone else I have ever heard speak.
He couldn't make a good commentator as the general public (football followers like me) wouldn't actually understand what he is talking about.
The inevitable Milne question popped up in question time ...'Ross did Milne make the wrong choice, did he cost you a flag'?
Can't re call verbatim but the answer was along the following line.....
- Milne is one of the best readers of the ball I (Ross) have seen and he absolutely made the right call.
200+ games + 500 goals, don't question Steven Milne.
- What cost you the game Ross?
- There is never one things that wind or loses a match, but the single biggest moment in the game was when Jason Gram got himself out of position in the last qtr and allowed Heath Shaw to almost mark uncontested in the goal square, the ball spilled to Cloke who snapped and put Collingwood in front. Had Gram been where he was instructed and trained to position himself he would have spoiled the ball and put it out of bounce or marked it.
- Watch the video and you'll see what ross is talking about.
Poor kicking cost us the flag in 2009, I think they over cooked the first qtr through nerves.
The 2009 Max Hudgton was not the St Kilda legend and club champion, he was a shadow of himself.
Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
evertonfc wrote:2009 was our real chance, because we were genuinely good enough.
But Lyon made a terrible call in choosing to play a sick Zac Dawson over a fit Max Hudghton. An even worse call to play Raph Clarke (not a basher - just felt he would be a liability in a tight match against a team who applied great pressure).
Then, in the game, we missed countless scoring opportunities. Our poor skills came to haunt us at the wrong time.
In 2010, we were cooked at half-time and lucky to be in it - and only ground our way back because of the group's inert belief and Collingwood's frazzling on the big stage.
Your joking arent you about Max and Zac. Zac had a very good game and Max had struggled with fitness and form. it was the right call and Zac didnt let him down. As for Clarke he was our best option at the time. We just kicked poorly considering how much we controlled the ball.
I'm just waiting for someone to mention that leaving Luke Ball on the bench in the last 1/4 cost us
The bloke had his best game of the year in conditions that suited him perfectly. To his credit he got the best out of himself in that game, but was NEVER going to be the difference and was most likely cooked by the last quarter (he was in every other game he played that year in the last quarter)
Hudghton at his best against Zac at his best?- no comparison. Luke Ball at his best? Would start and finish big games every day of the week. Sadly this was NOT the situation with either player in 2009.
joffaboy wrote:Hilariously ridiculous comparison. Takes the vendetta towards Lyon by the OP to a whole new level of conspiracy. Laughable. Oh Btw Vietnam is a great place to holiday. Another week here. Keep the laughs coming. Funniest thread of the year.
Oh jesus Joffaboy.
I hope you're doing everyone a favour over there and keeping your shirt on.
Ya <edited by mod and warning issued for personal abuse>.
Joffa Burns wrote:There is never one things that wind or loses a match, but the single biggest moment in the game was when Jason Gram got himself out of position in the last qtr and allowed Heath Shaw to almost mark uncontested in the goal square, the ball spilled to Cloke who snapped and put Collingwood in front. Had Gram been where he was instructed and trained to position himself he would have spoiled the ball and put it out of bounce or marked it.
- Watch the video and you'll see what ross is talking about.
Oh Ok.
So the coach coached well, he just wasn't capable of getting senior players to do what he asked them to do on the most important day of the year?
Joffa Burns wrote:I attended a function where Ross Lyon was guest speaker answering questions.
Ross has a way of speaking and looking at the game that is different than anyone else I have ever heard speak.
He couldn't make a good commentator as the general public (football followers like me) wouldn't actually understand what he is talking about.
The inevitable Milne question popped up in question time ...'Ross did Milne make the wrong choice, did he cost you a flag'?
Can't re call verbatim but the answer was along the following line.....
- Milne is one of the best readers of the ball I (Ross) have seen and he absolutely made the right call.
200+ games + 500 goals, don't question Steven Milne.
- What cost you the game Ross?
- There is never one things that wind or loses a match, but the single biggest moment in the game was when Jason Gram got himself out of position in the last qtr and allowed Heath Shaw to almost mark uncontested in the goal square, the ball spilled to Cloke who snapped and put Collingwood in front. Had Gram been where he was instructed and trained to position himself he would have spoiled the ball and put it out of bounce or marked it.
- Watch the video and you'll see what ross is talking about.
Poor kicking cost us the flag in 2009, I think they over cooked the first qtr through nerves.
The 2009 Max Hudgton was not the St Kilda legend and club champion, he was a shadow of himself.
Gram saved our bacon against the Cats by being out of position when he ran fwd and stifled a fwd thrust.
If you start picking out individual events in a game you could probably find dozens. It will only serve to send us all to padded cell. A lot of little things happen in a game of footy. Kicking straight is also crucial. If you miss your shots on goal it will always haunt you.
Joffa Burns wrote:I attended a function where Ross Lyon was guest speaker answering questions.
Ross has a way of speaking and looking at the game that is different than anyone else I have ever heard speak.
He couldn't make a good commentator as the general public (football followers like me) wouldn't actually understand what he is talking about.
The inevitable Milne question popped up in question time ...'Ross did Milne make the wrong choice, did he cost you a flag'?
Can't re call verbatim but the answer was along the following line.....
- Milne is one of the best readers of the ball I (Ross) have seen and he absolutely made the right call.
200+ games + 500 goals, don't question Steven Milne.
- What cost you the game Ross?
- There is never one things that wind or loses a match, but the single biggest moment in the game was when Jason Gram got himself out of position in the last qtr and allowed Heath Shaw to almost mark uncontested in the goal square, the ball spilled to Cloke who snapped and put Collingwood in front. Had Gram been where he was instructed and trained to position himself he would have spoiled the ball and put it out of bounce or marked it.
- Watch the video and you'll see what ross is talking about.
Poor kicking cost us the flag in 2009, I think they over cooked the first qtr through nerves.
The 2009 Max Hudgton was not the St Kilda legend and club champion, he was a shadow of himself.
wasnt it davis that put them in front?
No. He got the first goal of the last qtr.
_______________________________________________________________________
"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
joffaboy wrote:Hilariously ridiculous comparison. Takes the vendetta towards Lyon by the OP to a whole new level of conspiracy. Laughable. Oh Btw Vietnam is a great place to holiday. Another week here. Keep the laughs coming. Funniest thread of the year.
Oh jesus Joffaboy.
I hope you're doing everyone a favour over there and keeping your shir t
on.
Ya big fat slug.
What a disgraceful insulting thing to post. I suppose if you call 182 cm 91 kilo a fat slug so be it.
This fat slug also ran a half marathon in under 2 hours in July. Something you could never do. But keep the hilarious threads coming. Moneyball conspiracy this
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
rodgerfox wrote:For those firmly entrenched in the 'move on' camp - you need not read on.....
If there's already been a thread on this, my apologies, but I watched Moneyball for the first time last night. And it made me feel sick!
I found the parallels to the Saints of 2009 alarming in so many ways.
I'd heard that Ross Lyon was a 'believer' in the Billy Beanes strategy that the movie was based on, and it clearly makes sense.
Basically, it was all about building a team with guys playing a role. About building a team based on average players with clear deficiencies but whom at the same time had a strength or an attribute that the team needed. Put all these strengths together, and hide the flaws, and hey presto! You have a winning team.
They started poorly and took time to adjust, but when they did they were unbeatable. Won 20 in a row.
Sounds familiar yeah?
But all the while, the doubters still felt that when push came to shove at the pointy end of the season, you need that 'x factor' or natural flair that superstars bring to the table to get you over the line. Match winners if you will.
Sound familiar?
But they defied the odds, and just kept winning.
Sound familiar?
But then, at the pointy end of the season, they fell over. The critics said 'I told you so'. That when it gets down to it, averages go out the window. When it gets down to the crunch moments of the season, it's human acts that win games and premierships - not roles or numbers.
Sound familiar?
The reason it made me sick, is clearly that I don't get over things very easily and the missed opportunity of 09 came flooding back. It was almost like watching a Hollywood take on our 09 season!
And lastly, and clearly this will divide opinions - but the Oakland A's had to implement this strategy. They were forced to with their lack of money, to find a different way to compete.
But we didn't have to. Assuming that Lyon was basing his ideals on the Moneyball strategy (and this is clearly just an assumption) I think he clearly took it too far unnecessarily. We clearly took the good bits and built an amazing backline with some average players. However I think we took it too far and actually took away some of our strengths in the process.
I always felt that we were removing the flare and natural football instinct of the whole team. This was great for the Jason Blake's of the world - but not for the upper echelon of the list.
When it came down to it, we had sterilised our game so much that although we had players capable of it - we had lost the ability to win a game. We were great at making our opponents play poorly and make mistakes - but we couldn't go out and win a game when it really counted.
rodgerfox wrote:You need to take a good look hard look at yourself and get over your teenage heartthrob obsession with Ross Lyon.
It's sad, weird, yet completely hilarious.
If you're going to put posters up on your bedroom wall of someone and idolise them like a school girl crush, why not choose someone who has actually been successful?
A poster boy because I disagreed with your misaligned opinion?
Seems you cease defending your views early these days. Could be a facet of posting rubbish.
Time for another forum leaving announcement thread for you. I look forward to it.
