Do you think 09/10 should be celebrated?

[Cairnsman]

I feel Watters probably told a few bigger name players that they were overrated, and wouldn't be part if his plans. No doubt in my mind that just like the Saints of old, too many at the club didn't want to hear the truth and of course the tail wags the dog at St K, so Watters got the flick. No doubt the club will want a coach who tells them what they want to hear. Watters was a respected coach and mentor of players in WA, highly regarded at the filth, yet comes to Seafod and is seen as a lunatic... Go figure

Yeah something is amiss. I'm not suggesting that SW didn't play some part in his own demise however SainterK raises a very valid point and it is worth discussing. I for one would not discount the possibility that the senior players from the 09/10 GF sides would be causing some adverse politics within the club. Unfortunately the club will probably not completely move on until every one, or almost everyone of those senior players from 09/10 are gone. That doesn't sound nice but it is the reality of it. Having said that they are now very much in the minority and you would think that a new chemistry will be starting to build with the next generation.

[spert]

I feel Watters probably told a few bigger name players that they were overrated, and wouldn't be part if his plans. No doubt in my mind that just like the Saints of old, too many at the club didn't want to hear the truth and of course the tail wags the dog at St K, so Watters got the flick. No doubt the club will want a coach who tells them what they want to hear. Watters was a respected coach and mentor of players in WA, highly regarded at the filth, yet comes to Seafod and is seen as a lunatic... Go figure

Yeah something is amiss. I'm not suggesting that SW didn't play some part in his own demise however SainterK raises a very valid point and it is worth discussing. I for one would not discount the possibility that the senior players from the 09/10 GF sides would be causing some adverse politics within the club. Unfortunately the club will probably not completely move on until every one, or almost everyone of those senior players from 09/10 are gone. That doesn't sound nice but it is the reality of it. Having said that they are now very much in the minority and you would think that a new chemistry will be starting to build with the next generation.

Agree

[SaintPav]

I don't understand what we have to celebrate exactly.

The OP is assuming that there is a real relationship between these things and that one is the cause of the other.

It is a false cause.

[Dis Believer]

Do you realise the element of letting go is firmly in your court right now, Cuddles is out the door so embrace the present.

Something great is happening, we are re-blooding with some strong kids, but never forget your past
I will never forget 1966, i will never forget the jumpers on my wall from all the losing grannys since 97.

I have been sitting on the outter at Moorabbin in the pouring rain for years, and no one else was out there, but i was still finding positives about my football club as they get flogged again..

Its your football club too, so respect their decisions, they are not yours to make.

Your a Saint or your not, learn to go with the flow, you have no control over our destiny other than to support the guys who saddle up week after week to take the hits for you.

Great Post !! But you should have joined us behind the opposition cheer squad ! My brother and I spent a number of matches at Moorabbin, getting hammered in the rain and trying to stir up the opposition to amuse ourselves instead of watching the team get flogged yet again.

[Cairnsman]

I don't understand what we have to celebrate exactly.

The OP is assuming that there is a real relationship between these things and that one is the cause of the other.

It is a false cause.

Not necessarily. If the senior player in question have an over inflated sense of their achievements and standing within the club's history then it could be a problem.

[slider]

Do you realise the element of letting go is firmly in your court right now, Cuddles is out the door so embrace the present.

Something great is happening, we are re-blooding with some strong kids, but never forget your past
I will never forget 1966, i will never forget the jumpers on my wall from all the losing grannys since 97.

I have been sitting on the outter at Moorabbin in the pouring rain for years, and no one else was out there, but i was still finding positives about my football club as they get flogged again..

Its your football club too, so respect their decisions, they are not yours to make.

Your a Saint or your not, learn to go with the flow, you have no control over our destiny other than to support the guys who saddle up week after week to take the hits for you.

Great Post !! But you should have joined us behind the opposition cheer squad ! My brother and I spent a number of matches at Moorabbin, getting hammered in the rain and trying to stir up the opposition to amuse ourselves instead of watching the team get flogged yet again.

I copped a full can of beer in the back of the head off a doggies supporter, i think i might of stirred them up a little at times myself

[Dis Believer]

Do you realise the element of letting go is firmly in your court right now, Cuddles is out the door so embrace the present.

Something great is happening, we are re-blooding with some strong kids, but never forget your past
I will never forget 1966, i will never forget the jumpers on my wall from all the losing grannys since 97.

I have been sitting on the outter at Moorabbin in the pouring rain for years, and no one else was out there, but i was still finding positives about my football club as they get flogged again..

Its your football club too, so respect their decisions, they are not yours to make.

Your a Saint or your not, learn to go with the flow, you have no control over our destiny other than to support the guys who saddle up week after week to take the hits for you.

Great Post !! But you should have joined us behind the opposition cheer squad ! My brother and I spent a number of matches at Moorabbin, getting hammered in the rain and trying to stir up the opposition to amuse ourselves instead of watching the team get flogged yet again.

I copped a full can of beer in the back of the head off a doggies supporter, i think i might of stirred them up a little at times myself

The doggies were great fun. We were targeting their cheer squad with taunts over Doug Hawkins once and 3 old ladies near the cheer squad got upset and started threatening my brother with umbrellas - one of the funnier exchanges I've seen at the footy..... all because we questioned Doug's sexual preferences !!

[Dis Believer]

I'm with K, I'm very skeptical of the events that have been presented to us.

I think that guys like Roo and Joey played a bigger part in this then we're being told.

I don't think Scott showed a lot in his time but I don't think we could have expected too much more with the list that he was left, in fact I think his first season was an admirable effort.

If we bring in Williams it will suggest to me that there is a clique running the club and that all the professionalism of the Lyon era went with him to Fremantle.

My opinions probably aren't popular but this whole thing has been a shambles, I don't know what it is but we just struggle to attract the right sort of people to run our club.

I'm kind of relieved that someone else shares similar sentiments.

I felt incredibly out of sync with the "what a tyrant" chorus based purely on unconfirmed rumblings, some of which included senior players being offside.

We've all just assumed that the club will not go into specifics.

What if the specifics is simply unjustified mutiny from guys not ready to let go of the past....

He got along with "nobody" flies in the face of his career to date.

I get that it wouldn't work if he'd lost the players, but it wouldn't of come to that if we'd shown a bit more spunk.

I keep getting told the fact the players didn't like him told the story, but maybe we're guilty of indulging in a "choose your own adventure" and reading the chapters that sit more comfortably with us than others.

Well the reality is that the whole thing boils down to choices SK.

1) We originally made a poor choice, which became evident after a while and as a whole, the club did a good job of constructing a front to keep most of the internal issues out of the public eye, until recently.
2) SW was a great coach and the victim of a conspiracy to get rid of him. In this version, the club is constructing a front to paint him as the bad guy an justify his sacking.

So either way the club is being manipulative. In version one it's to cover up a mistake in their choice until it won't be as damaging for the news to get out. In version two, it's to justify a sacking that is really not justifiable and is the result of internal politics. What interests me is that you seem so keen to believe it's version two - why is that?

[stinger]

Yeah something is amiss. I'm not suggesting that SW didn't play some part in his own demise however SainterK raises a very valid point and it is worth discussing. I for one would not discount the possibility that the senior players from the 09/10 GF sides would be causing some adverse politics within the club. Unfortunately the club will probably not completely move on until every one, or almost everyone of those senior players from 09/10 are gone. That doesn't sound nice but it is the reality of it. Having said that they are now very much in the minority and you would think that a new chemistry will be starting to build with the next generation.

only trouble cainsman is that you have a total lack of evidence to back up your claim.....

...i heard the same rubbish being sprouted about banger, burkie and loewe back in their days...again with no evidence to back up these wild claims....

[stinger]

The board got it right.

As pointed out, a cruel bounce was the difference between Watters being part of an AFL premiership and us…

...care to explain that comment...

[stinger]

As pointed out, a cruel bounce was the difference between Watters being part of an AFL premiership and us…

Actually, I hadn't considered the fact that watters was part of the group that STOPPED our dream coming true. Surely he wouldn't have been cocky about that? If he has used that then well...

...oh.... ...okay

[stinger]

At the end of the day does it really matter?...

What aspects of Watter's coaching are people actually crying they'll miss.

Nothing. No ones actually that fazed.

I appreciate it was still early days. And fair enough - but there wasn't much I thought was superb. I don't think it's a major loss nor was I calling for his head.

fair point...i was never quite able to work out his coaching style or his game plan....guess he had neither

[stinger]

Do you realise the element of letting go is firmly in your court right now, Cuddles is out the door so embrace the present.

Something great is happening, we are re-blooding with some strong kids, but never forget your past
I will never forget 1966, i will never forget the jumpers on my wall from all the losing grannys since 97.

I have been sitting on the outter at Moorabbin in the pouring rain for years, and no one else was out there, but i was still finding positives about my football club as they get flogged again..

Its your football club too, so respect their decisions, they are not yours to make.

Your a Saint or your not, learn to go with the flow, you have no control over our destiny other than to support the guys who saddle up week after week to take the hits for you.

Great Post !! But you should have joined us behind the opposition cheer squad ! My brother and I spent a number of matches at Moorabbin, getting hammered in the rain and trying to stir up the opposition to amuse ourselves instead of watching the team get flogged yet again.

a couple of true supporters...the lifeblood of any club.....

[bobmurray]

I feel Watters probably told a few bigger name players that they were overrated, and wouldn't be part if his plans. No doubt in my mind that just like the Saints of old, too many at the club didn't want to hear the truth and of course the tail wags the dog at St K, so Watters got the flick. No doubt the club will want a coach who tells them what they want to hear. Watters was a respected coach and mentor of players in WA, highly regarded at the filth, yet comes to Seafod and is seen as a lunatic... Go figure

Neeld was well regarded at Collingwood, had coached in Grand Finals in a lower league and won flags yet when he coached at Melbourne he was seen as a Lunatic, something NQR with those MM assistants, that's 2 of them in 2013 that went the same way, hope we never employ another one, in any role.

[desertsaint]

The players may have gone down in two grand finals, but mediocrity was never an issue. As for the likelihood of players accepting the losses - I doubt they will ever accept it. Come to terms with it and have some pride in their careers - for sure. They deserve that respect. As for me, I have a lot of pride in the team for that period, tinged always with the disappointment that fate conspired against us - literally a flukey toe poke and an errant bounce - we shouldn't ever forget that this team was that close to being regarded as one of the best of the modern era. Flag wins in the new milenium could so easily read - Brisbane 3, St kilda 2, Geelong 2, Swans 2, Hawks 2...Collingwood 0.

[dragit]

The players may have gone down in two grand finals, but mediocrity was never an issue. As for the likelihood of players accepting the losses - I doubt they will ever accept it. Come to terms with it and have some pride in their careers - for sure. They deserve that respect. As for me, I have a lot of pride in the team for that period, tinged always with the disappointment that fate conspired against us - literally a flukey toe poke and an errant bounce - we shouldn't ever forget that this team was that close to being regarded as one of the best of the modern era. Flag wins in the new milenium could so easily read - Brisbane 3, St kilda 2, Geelong 2, Swans 2, Hawks 2...Collingwood 0.

Great post... In the end a smudge of luck was the difference, nothing to do with being a supposed mediocrity-accepting establishment. That concept s***s me no end.

[Old Mate]

For whatever the reason, he lost the players. The onus falls on Scott. It's his fault and in the end it was Poor ppl management that cost him his job. His coaching ability another topic.

[Dave McNamara]

The doggies were great fun. We were targeting their cheer squad with taunts over Doug Hawkins once and 3 old ladies near the cheer squad got upset and started threatening my brother with umbrellas - one of the funnier exchanges I've seen at the footy..... all because we questioned Doug's sexual preferences !!

Gotta' love those poodles fans.

Mid 80's, last game of the year at Moorabbin... we were to finish last, they made their first finals under Milkshake. They led all day, but we got up in the last.

I was in the outer and had so much fun heaping it on that underachiever Beasley all day long. Quite a few poodles fans couldn't understand it, given the ladder positions and the scoreboard for most of the day.

I remember we jumped the fence after the game, waded through the mud, then over the fence on the other side and waltzed into the social club. Ended up next to Lindsay Fox during his post game speech. Clearly no security back then.

I soooooo miss that place.

[SainterK]

The players may have gone down in two grand finals, but mediocrity was never an issue. As for the likelihood of players accepting the losses - I doubt they will ever accept it. Come to terms with it and have some pride in their careers - for sure. They deserve that respect. As for me, I have a lot of pride in the team for that period, tinged always with the disappointment that fate conspired against us - literally a flukey toe poke and an errant bounce - we shouldn't ever forget that this team was that close to being regarded as one of the best of the modern era. Flag wins in the new milenium could so easily read - Brisbane 3, St kilda 2, Geelong 2, Swans 2, Hawks 2...Collingwood 0.

I get all that.

However I still don't think he said that group was mediocre, he said as a club in its entirety, we've made a habit of accepting mediocrity.

Don't forget this was on a night where Greg and Michael had both given a heavy scolding.

It's personal if you make it personal.

We have had WAY too many scandals, way too many negative headlines, and one flag....

You can take that comment in isolation and easily get offended, or you can step back from and say "we won a handful of games this year, and made the news for burning a dwarf"

Maybe Scott wasn't being so specific, maybe he was right, and our club while bubbling well enough on field, still had ways to improve and mature.

BJ left, Gram was sacked, Milne headlines resurfaced, Jack had a DUI, mad Monday was a disaster.

He wasn't even here that long, maybe he had a point.

[satchmo]

I wasn't there, K, but what SW was reported to have said didn't sound too bad to me. But the suggestion that the players took offense...do you know that is fact?
Even on here, things are quickly blown out of proportion. A player might say 'yeah that's a bit rough' and next it's reported that the entire playing group want to torch him.

And can you elaborate on Michael and Greg's "scolding"?

[mullet]

Only this would come from a St Kilda supporter. Do you think 09/10 should be celebrated.

Of course. We are allowed to be happy you know. Stop letting the press pull you all down. 9/10 was fantastic times. Going to games expecting to win. It was a great
time. We came close both years. But at least we were there.

Now snap out of this morbid mood, and look forward to the season. Look forward to a new coach. For once we had the guts to get rid of person who was causing great unrest. We had the courage of our convictions. We dont have to go through the season with pressure on our coach and club. When will he be sacked??? Do you think the media would have let up. Now they can pick on some other sucker, like Buckley.

A negative StKilda story will always sell more papers than a positive any club story. Stuck for a story, just move the words around and write another Stkilda rabble story.
Even though they all agree that Watters had to go. It is so amateur.

Yep I celebrated 9/10, it hurt to not win, but I am forever grateful for the great ride. We are allowed to be happy, and excited, stop being stifled by the rest of the footy world, this is just what they want.

Go Sainters, and thanks for 09/10

[dragit]

He wasn't even here that long, maybe he had a point.

Who is actually accepting mediocrity? Fans, players, staff? I don't think any are… the mental fatigue our players have shown is evidence of the great anguish they have gone through at not winning a premiership.

We have seen 10 years of high level performance, now that we have dropped away, everyone is desperate to get back up and challenge for a flag again. No-one on here is happy about dropping away…

Although I'm sure many people will think fondly of the 04 - 10 period, sustained 'success' & many great players but… the notion that the club accepts mediocrity is just an offensive myth.

[Con Gorozidis]

respected yes
lessons learnt yes
confidence gained yes
celebrated definitely not

But in defence of the players -

I think the trouble with guys like Neeld and Cuddles is they came from under Malthouse and saw first hand the authority and respect he had with players and staff (many players/staff dislike Malthouse but most if not all still respect him)

Then instead of going about their business and building their own respect brick by brick from the ground up by doing a good job coaching (which is the job they were hired to do) they try and ''assert their authority" from the get go or when under stress/pressure

This is clearly what Neeld did - and also sounds like when Cuddles got stressed or was insecure - he also fell into this trap

When people attempt to artificially 'assert' their authority it just comes across as fake and players/staff just turn off you in a big way

True respect comes from just sticking to your task through thick and thin - not artificially trying to create respect which soon leads to desperately saying silly things and making silly decisions - you end up just coming across as a try-hard knob

Neelds 'tough-guy' act was clearly interpreted as fake and contrived by Melbourne players and staff and once you are seen as contrived or fake - you are as good as gone as a leader of men

Sounds like Cuddles fell into a similar mindset in 2013 artificially over ruling people or putting them down just to assert his 'authority' for its own sake and without focusing just on doing his job

[satchmo]

Sounds quite feasible, Con.

[SainterK]

I wasn't there, K, but what SW was reported to have said didn't sound too bad to me. But the suggestion that the players took offense...do you know that is fact?
Even on here, things are quickly blown out of proportion. A player might say 'yeah that's a bit rough' and next it's reported that the entire playing group want to torch him.

And can you elaborate on Michael and Greg's "scolding"?

Greg started by talking about the "elephant in the room"

How embarrassed the club was, not good enough behaviour, it's not what we stand for. He looked over it...

Michael talked about the 100s of letters tat came from justifiably angry fans, and how he made players call them back one by one, apologising.

It was a sober introduction to the night, and no I don't think it was offensive, in fact he spoke very well. His message gave me a lot of clarity, that this club could be great if it let go of the good....but admittedly I like to be challenged, I like the bar raised, I don't like feeling comfortable