Do you think 09/10 should be celebrated?

[SainterK]

Curious.

Talk of Scott removing posters and the like fom the changerooms celebrating this era, doesn't go away.

Talk of offence at his accepting mediocrity speech.

I personally think his sacking has less to do with his relationship with the football department, Saad playing in Brisbane, or game day coaching...

And more to do with a refusal to celebrate this era, and subsequently offending the senior playing group.

As a supporter base we talk of it as our most successful period, which it was, however apart from maybe the dogs....I'm not sure I'm convinced any other clubs would be consumed by exalting it so highly?

Why would Scott, or why should Scott tip toe around what is fact...near enough isn't good enough.

He'd just been a part of a solid defensive group that helped win a flag at the pies, he'd coached subiaco to 2 premierships not so long ago.

Something stinks about what were being fed, it doesn't add up.

I'm not trying to be snide, I'm not trying to wind anyone up, I just have an honest question...

How would we know as a club and supporter base, how to approach winning flags?

Scott did.

[satchmo]

Small piece of the puzzle.
Personally, can't see what there is to celebrate.

[Con Gorozidis]

What did the posters say?

[Harvey To Hayes]

Scott did.

So did Tim Watson before he came to us, doesn't mean he could coach.

I don't think we should necessarily celebrate that era because ultimately we failed to break the drought but 3 GFs and 5 prelims is far from mediocrity as well...

[SainterK]

Small piece of the puzzle.
Personally, can't see what there is to celebrate.

We haven't joined a long list of Scott Watters fractured relationships though, saints are the first group not to gel with him.

I'm just saying that hypothetically, he offends senior guys, senior assistants that happen to be mates with said senior players take players side, when grumbles reach board level...board members that happen to be ex players bristle at someone dismissing an era they oversaw.

Suddenly you stand no chance, the place sends you batty....

Why is it so unfathomable?

Things that don't add up.

Scott talks about saints being a juggernaut in 4-5 years yet somehow, gets represented as someone who presented a confused message?

Scott has a strained relationship with Chris Pelchen, yet people attribute that as being exclusive to Scott? Do some research, the guy makes more enemies than friends.

Scott is a guy who works with youth outside of footy, coaches a WAFL team to flags, is highly spoken of by all at collingwood including players. Yet suddenly is portrayed as some kind of loose cannon ogre?

Guys like finey paint a picture, and we take it as gospel, the club certainly has given us nothing even resembling reasons as to why he was dismissed.

[SainterK]

Scott did.

So did Tim Watson before he came to us, doesn't mean he could coach.

I don't think we should necessarily celebrate that era because ultimately we failed to break the drought but 3 GFs and 5 prelims is far from mediocrity as well...

Did Tim do the kind of apprenticeship that Scott did?

[markp]

Not a lot to genuinely celebrate, but nothing to be ashamed of. Far from it.

I'd say the context of the criticism (how it was delivered and by whom) was much more pivotal here than simply should we/shouldn't we.

Could've even been the straw that broke the camels back or the beginning of the rot... who knows. But I'd be staggered if it was ultimately more than just another piece of that puzzle.

[Armoooo]

I'm with K, I'm very skeptical of the events that have been presented to us.

I think that guys like Roo and Joey played a bigger part in this then we're being told.

I don't think Scott showed a lot in his time but I don't think we could have expected too much more with the list that he was left, in fact I think his first season was an admirable effort.

If we bring in Williams it will suggest to me that there is a clique running the club and that all the professionalism of the Lyon era went with him to Fremantle.

My opinions probably aren't popular but this whole thing has been a shambles, I don't know what it is but we just struggle to attract the right sort of people to run our club.

[Harvey To Hayes]

Scott did.

So did Tim Watson before he came to us, doesn't mean he could coach.

I don't think we should necessarily celebrate that era because ultimately we failed to break the drought but 3 GFs and 5 prelims is far from mediocrity as well...

Did Tim do the kind of apprenticeship that Scott did?

I see what you're saying but at the end of the day it's just not relevant past the appointment itself - if you can't gain and then keep the respect of the playing group then you're dead in the water no matter how many flags you've won in the past at other clubs and in other capacities...

[slider]

From what i was told by someone very very very much in the know, i am glad to see him gone.

Him and Neeld were tarred with the same brush, now both are sacked coaches, the big big whip he thought he had because he was the filths successful backline coach? he turned out to be a mememememmemememememememememe coach with no respect for past and senor players and no respect for the club.

Banger didnt leave because he cracked the sads about the decision, he left because? yeah cuddles was going to be at the helm and again went into detail about no respect for past champs etc.

Respect our club or GTFO and he has, thank goodness.

[gringo]

On cup day I went to a barbecue with some friends - one of our friends is the sister of a major financial backer of the club who is privileged to a lot of information and always has the inside stuff. She said that the stuff that was made public about Watters was pretty mild compared to the concerns they had about him for quite a while.

She wouldn't elaborate much as she said she promised not to say anything but said that it was definitely for the best to sack him. She is a very reserved person with out any kind of exaggeration in her nature and I would back her word and that of her brother.

For what it's worth I thought he was doing pretty well from the outside so I don't want to rubbish him but if the concerns of the board were that strong there must have been problems.

It doesn't sound like a few spiteful older players with a grudge.

[stinger]

As a supporter base we talk of it as our most successful period, which it was, however apart from maybe the dogs....I'm not sure I'm convinced any other clubs would be consumed by exalting it so highly?
.

not our most successful era at all....1965 to 71 was ...played in three grandfinals...with one flag...twice runner up....

[SainterK]

I'm with K, I'm very skeptical of the events that have been presented to us.

I think that guys like Roo and Joey played a bigger part in this then we're being told.

I don't think Scott showed a lot in his time but I don't think we could have expected too much more with the list that he was left, in fact I think his first season was an admirable effort.

If we bring in Williams it will suggest to me that there is a clique running the club and that all the professionalism of the Lyon era went with him to Fremantle.

My opinions probably aren't popular but this whole thing has been a shambles, I don't know what it is but we just struggle to attract the right sort of people to run our club.

I'm kind of relieved that someone else shares similar sentiments.

I felt incredibly out of sync with the "what a tyrant" chorus based purely on unconfirmed rumblings, some of which included senior players being offside.

We've all just assumed that the club will not go into specifics.

What if the specifics is simply unjustified mutiny from guys not ready to let go of the past....

He got along with "nobody" flies in the face of his career to date.

I get that it wouldn't work if he'd lost the players, but it wouldn't of come to that if we'd shown a bit more spunk.

I keep getting told the fact the players didn't like him told the story, but maybe we're guilty of indulging in a "choose your own adventure" and reading the chapters that sit more comfortably with us than others.

[SainterK]

From what i was told by someone very very very much in the know, i am glad to see him gone.

Him and Neeld were tarred with the same brush, now both are sacked coaches, the big big whip he thought he had because he was the filths successful backline coach? he turned out to be a mememememmemememememememememe coach with no respect for past and senor players and no respect for the club.

Banger didnt leave because he cracked the sads about the decision, he left because? yeah cuddles was going to be at the helm and again went into detail about no respect for past champs etc.

Respect our club or GTFO and he has, thank goodness.

See it's this view I want to explore further.

What past?

Maybe we are all warped on what our club needs and deserves.

Frankly, stepping back a bit and listening to opinions I respect and glean a bit from, we are really in no position to demand respect and our stock put into "champs" is excessive because we are starved of success.

It makes sense, I'm totally guilty of it myself.

Just don't feel like it suddenly, I'm kind of resentful that so many baulked at the bar being raised.

[slider]

I have no problem with the bar being raised, i relish someone like choc with people skills taking over. These boys went within a kick, a friggen bounce of the ball a drawn granny and how many wins on the trot? They all worked their butts off but the final success wasnt there, but never deny that these guys are legends of the club, if you do? hit the road jack and dont come back no more.

[gringo]

I'm with K, I'm very skeptical of the events that have been presented to us.

I think that guys like Roo and Joey played a bigger part in this then we're being told.

I don't think Scott showed a lot in his time but I don't think we could have expected too much more with the list that he was left, in fact I think his first season was an admirable effort.

If we bring in Williams it will suggest to me that there is a clique running the club and that all the professionalism of the Lyon era went with him to Fremantle.

My opinions probably aren't popular but this whole thing has been a shambles, I don't know what it is but we just struggle to attract the right sort of people to run our club.

I'm kind of relieved that someone else shares similar sentiments.

I felt incredibly out of sync with the "what a tyrant" chorus based purely on unconfirmed rumblings, some of which included senior players being offside.

We've all just assumed that the club will not go into specifics.

What if the specifics is simply unjustified mutiny from guys not ready to let go of the past....

He got along with "nobody" flies in the face of his career to date.

I get that it wouldn't work if he'd lost the players, but it wouldn't of come to that if we'd shown a bit more spunk.

I keep getting told the fact the players didn't like him told the story, but maybe we're guilty of indulging in a "choose your own adventure" and reading the chapters that sit more comfortably with us than others.

I was of the opinion that the players seemed to have pushed him out but as I said in another thread I heard from someone on cup day that told me that he was the reason for his own down fall. I didn't get elaborate details but suffice to say I was told he was a concern for a longer period than just recently and definitely had issues with communication and actions and confusion. It didn't seem to be the Pelchen Watters war either. I can't really say anything that I heard because I promised not to gossip especially in a public forum.

[SainterK]

I have no problem with the bar being raised, i relish someone like choc with people skills taking over. These boys went within a kick, a friggen bounce of the ball a drawn granny and how many wins on the trot? They all worked their butts off but the final success wasnt there, but never deny that these guys are legends of the club, if you do? hit the road jack and dont come back no more.

You realise by the time we play another game, that will have been 4 seasons ago.

There is an element of letting go of something good, so something great may happen.

[satchmo]

K, it seems to me that you believe that the players and assistant coaches didn't like Watters because he didn't praise them enough, and Pelchen chimed in because he wants more and more power, so they went to the board and the board said 'oh, we can't have that, so piss off scott'.

Is that what you are suggesting?

[slider]

I have no problem with the bar being raised, i relish someone like choc with people skills taking over. These boys went within a kick, a friggen bounce of the ball a drawn granny and how many wins on the trot? They all worked their butts off but the final success wasnt there, but never deny that these guys are legends of the club, if you do? hit the road jack and dont come back no more.

You realise by the time we play another game, that will have been 4 seasons ago.

There is an element of letting go of something good, so something great may happen.

Do you realise the element of letting go is firmly in your court right now, Cuddles is out the door so embrace the present.

Something great is happening, we are re-blooding with some strong kids, but never forget your past
I will never forget 1966, i will never forget the jumpers on my wall from all the losing grannys since 97.

I have been sitting on the outter at Moorabbin in the pouring rain for years, and no one else was out there, but i was still finding positives about my football club as they get flogged again..

Its your football club too, so respect their decisions, they are not yours to make.

Your a Saint or your not, learn to go with the flow, you have no control over our destiny other than to support the guys who saddle up week after week to take the hits for you.

[Eastern]

I'm not sure we need to celebrate, but we can acknowledge the efforts of a lot of people during that time. Another word that can be added to this topic, in this context is RESPECT !!

[gringo]

I guess we don't want to show a lack of respect like melbourne did with Maloney. Sometimes you need the continuity and the future running along side each other.

[SainterK]

K, it seems to me that you believe that the players and assistant coaches didn't like him because he didn't praise them enough, and Pelchen chimed in because he wants more and more power, so they went to the board and the board said 'oh, we can't have that, so piss off scott'.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I don't think it had much to do with Pelchen, he's a whole other topic, but a topic not significant to the last two coaches leaving us.

That's what I'm saying...

Listen to the presser again, summers VERY clear about what weren't the reasons (Pelchen included) and remarkably more evasive when it came to senior players being disgruntled.

Nettlefold, Thompson, Bourke...all oversaw this era Scott refused to glorify.

Roo, Joey and the likes...all played in this era Scott refused to glorify.

Max, Hamill wanted to walk...all played with players in this era Scott refused to glorify.

I take Chris and Scott at their word, that they were prepared to move forward together.

[BigMart]

For what reason?

[Bluthy]

The cruel irony is those incredibly close losses means you can't neatly assign them into the "close but not quite good enough" file. That little parrot at the back of your brain keeps chirping "bounce of the ball, 2 flags...bounce of ball, 2 flags" SHUT UP GET OUT OF MY HEAD ALREADY AAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! Breathe, breathe....

But I think to move forward we have to make the hard call and say what we should be aspiring to is in fact another level up ie being superior to the other 17 teams by 3 or 4 goals not relying on the bounce of the ball to go our way. Yes I know we missed chances against Geelong and if that ball bounced to Milney our "culture" would be lauded - but its all just an endless loop. Lyon's low scoring pessimistic style always played with fire. And we got burnt - bad. The older players still have the heavy scarring that will probably never heal.

St Kilda is a bit like a possessed person who needs an exorcism. Scott help up the crucifix chanting "medicocre" and sprayed holy water and the players projectile vomited on him while their heads turned around. If Scott did use the words "mediocre" or "second rate" then that is to his shame and shows a dark side in his communication skills. We seem to have seen golden tongue Scott externally, but internally he acted clumsily and inconsiderately. Its ok to set out for a new era, but you have to take people with you. He didn't do that.

In summary I think we stop all the "what if.." and just say no that era wasn't quite good enough. Its the only way to escape the insanity from living in a past that haunts us. Its time for the Saints to conquer its Demons!

[satchmo]

K, it seems to me that you believe that the players and assistant coaches didn't like him because he didn't praise them enough, and Pelchen chimed in because he wants more and more power, so they went to the board and the board said 'oh, we can't have that, so piss off scott'.

Is that what you are suggesting?

I don't think it had much to do with Pelchen, he's a whole other topic, but a topic not significant to the last two coaches leaving us.

That's what I'm saying...

Listen to the presser again, summers VERY clear about what weren't the reasons (Pelchen included) and remarkably more evasive when it came to senior players being disgruntled.

Nettlefold, Thompson, Bourke...all oversaw this era Scott refused to glorify.

Roo, Joey and the likes...all played in this era Scott refused to glorify.

Max, Hamill wanted to walk...all played with players in this era Scott refused to glorify.

I take Chris and Scott at their word, that they were prepared to move forward together.

I think you have taken a snippet of the truth and over emphasised it.

"...Scott refused to glorify"
I don't believe that any of them require glorification. Of course it's possible a few individuals might be a little over impressed with themselves, but enough to roll the coach?
I certainly don't think that this is the way that Nathan Burke and Andrew Thompson do business.

Too many odd situations would have to coincide for this to be possible IMO.