Mark Fine

[Con Gorozidis]

For the record i have no issues with jaxons.
Hes awesome.
And finey may have had good intentions but i just dont get why he put up a huge song and dance and drama and then couldn't back it up and came up with oh just trust me on it.
Dont hype up the drama and then say oh sorry im not telling but trust me i know.

But i agree with the advice.
I really need to move on.

[BackFromUSA]

Byron
You misconstrue egoism.
There is an element of egoism about saying trust me im in the know and take my word for it.
Just follow me on trust. Thats egoism.
I dont want all the gory details or anyone to give up their sources but we have not got a semblance of substance at all.
Im not going to join a hang mob based purely on a wink or nod from a self proclaimed insider.
Im not demanding equal knowledge nor do i expect it just something slightly above innuendo and a knudge before i get my noose out.
Hardly egoism on our part.

Fair call Con. Good argument.
I don't reckon that Jaxons is calling for a hang mob. Doesn't give me that impression. Passing on info with as much detail as possible without doing damage to the club is how I read his posts.
Fine on the other hand, without having heard him myself, seems to be making shyte up and stirring up rumour without much consideration of the club's best interests.

Thanks St Byron....most of what you say is right.
Although disagree with you on Finey.
I think he is a mad saints man and did what he did because he knows things that make him believe that we need to change our coach.
I only want what is best for the Saints.
If the board think it is SW then so be it.
The problem is the board don't share this belief and would have acted but felt it was too unsettling with no CEO at the helm.
So we go into next year with a coach that the board and players don't want.
Even though we performed well at trade week it will be a long year until our board can manage the club properly.

Nettlefold is still CEO.

Board backed Watters after review by Thompson and Pelchin.

Board clarified KPIs.

Board is working fine.

Better than some ex board members ... they are not listening purely to our champions of the Naughties.

[jaxons]

For the record i have no issues with jaxons.
Hes awesome.
And finey may have had good intentions but i just dont get why he put up a huge song and dance and drama and then couldn't back it up and came up with oh just trust me on it.
Dont hype up the drama and then say oh sorry im not telling but trust me i know.

But i agree with the advice.
I really need to move on.

Thanks CG
Finey didn't because he couldn't, it wasn't his place to expose it publically.
Don't worry the Board know it all now, everything Finey alluded to and couldn't say.
Aside from all the crap going on with SW I am amazed so many support him.
Not one young player improved in 2013, except Steven and can someone tell me what our game style is at present?
What brand of footy do we stand for?
If you hone in on our season we probably won one genuine game of footy in 2013 against Carlton.
I don't count wins against Melb and GWS.
Gold Coast were cooked by second last round.
And as good as the last game was the result against the Fremantle 3rds should not give us any false expectations!

[BackFromUSA]

My personal opinion is:

Mark Fine is an arrogant egotist (some people love that about him) - always has been - off and on air - known him for close on 40 years. He is also one of the media's greatest hypocrites ... I laugh when he talks about being anti-bullying and then listen to him verbally abuse and bully his callers.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - even an opinion on those that are negative or positive in their opinions of the club - he has his, I have mine:

When the first rumblings about the coach appeared pre the B&F, I spent time at the B&F talking with players, admin, board members etc and there is no doubt the complaints are from senior players and they are based on the coaches focus being on 2016+ which discounts them personally from serious finals action. It is hard for these champs of the past 10+ years to hear that they are not the focus going forward, that a forward line will not be built around one player and that a midfielder who should be a hard working leader will not be sent back to half back to release a tag ... because pandering to these individual needs hurts the team overall and especially hurts team development. Personally I congratulate the coach for taking the team approach.

Those players have yet come to terms with their failure to deliver a flag and feel they have unfinished business and want one last title shot. Now they call into question Scott's strategy, his game plan and his communication skills. They also feel that Scott has ignored their desires to help develop the younger generation - with Scott rightly leaving that to the newly established academy team. IMHO perhaps they should not have spent 2011 sooking because it was their last real chance to deliver given the age profile of the list then and if they threw as much emotion (as they are showing now in white-anting the coach) into that final tilt then they could have given it a shake.

Having said that, no matter who is right and who is wrong ... making this conflict public (players speaking to board and ex board members and financial patrons of the club and then these people leaking the conflict via 'Caro' and 'Finey' and other journalists who investigated and elected not to run the story) was without the WRONG way to move forward and try to resolve the conflict. IMHO using the mass media is unhelpful and disloyal IMHO because this needs to be addressed and resolved behind closed doors. 'Finey" should have investigated further before speaking and he would have found a younger playing list determined to succeed with Scott. The whole thing should be handled behind closed doors and remember "loose lips sink ships".

I hope and believe that the board understands that nothing is gained by letting the tail wag the dog and they learn from 70s and 80s Saints history that changing the coach gains nothing and loses much more. Scott should be given the opportunity to show that he can steer the Saints in 2014 and beyond.

Scott should and will be be judged on the development of the team over 2014 now that we have 2 key defenders and a more balanced list which still lacks 20 - 40 games experience. I personally believe that we shall have better results this year with better structure, more competition for spots and importantly better depth to cover inevitable injuries. I believe that we will win 6 to 10 games in 2014. Any less and his job will be under threat.

I also believe if the board can land Clarkson, Scott will be moved on. It will be a Harvey / Lyon situation. I still credit Harvey for building that team.

I sincerely believe history will eventually show that Scott's faith in this next generation of players will bare fruit even if he is long gone and replaced by the time we win the flag we deserve around 2020 ... I believe his philosophy of recruitment and development of youth at the expense of the previous generation of players will be a huge foundation of any such success.

[jaxons]

Nettlefold is still CEO.

Board backed Watters after review by Thompson and Pelchin.

Board clarified KPIs.

Board is working fine.

Better than some ex board members ... they are not listening purely to our champions of the Naughties.

Nettlefold is not still CEO.
Has left the club quietly a few weeks ago and Terry Dillon is acting CEO.

[BackFromUSA]

Not one young player improved in 2013, except Steven and can someone tell me what our game style is at present?
What brand of footy do we stand for?

Players that improved in and through 2013:

1. Hickey
2. Steven
3. Ross
4. Lee
5. Geary
6. Newnes
7. Roberton
8. Gilbert (not young but back to his best)
9. Armitage
10. Webster
11. Murdoch
12. Wright
13. Saunders
14. Maister (huge improvement pre injury)
15. Minchington
16. Curren

There was improvement.

Our season was destroyed by injury to key personnel and inadequate depth in those positions - this particularly impacted our backline and we leaked goals.

Our game plan is not unlike those of other teams but with the team we had on the park with 6 to 10 young players each week was not experienced enough or fit enough (with one or two pre-seasons behind them) ... which is why we were competitive for a time but at the end of quarters and at the end of the match we were simply overrun.

[Devilhead]

I only want what is best for the Saints.

If that's what you want then STFU and stop acting as if you are a factual spokesperson for the club!!

[BackFromUSA]

Nettlefold is still CEO.

Board backed Watters after review by Thompson and Pelchin.

Board clarified KPIs.

Board is working fine.

Better than some ex board members ... they are not listening purely to our champions of the Naughties.

Nettlefold is not still CEO.
Has left the club quietly a few weeks ago and Terry Dillon is acting CEO.

OK then we have an acting CEO ... so we have a CEO ... rather than being rudderless Should not prevent a board from axing a coach IF it is the right thing to do. The board chose to retain the coach. You and others may disagree but causing instability through publicly aired dissatisfaction does NOT help the club.

[Mackaysaint]

I don't think anyone can justify the type of rants Mark Fine has publicly made - absolutely destroying the credibility of the club and ruining next year's membership numbers
How he can call himself a supporter is beyond me. Assassin is closer to the mark

[howlinwolf]

I don't think anyone can justify the type of rants Mark Fine has publicly made - absolutely destroying the credibility of the club and ruining next year's membership numbers
How he can call himself a supporter is beyond me. Assassin is closer to the mark

I agree with you 100% MS.
A true supporter would never air our dirty linen in public.
Fine didn't have to be happy with what he'd heard but it should never have been broadcast to the media pack to run with and expand.
That was done purely for ratings in my opinion. J.ust as the ensuing media storm.
This crap just grows legs and multiplies. Truth doesn't need to be a part of it.

The KD affair was blown way out of proportion to what the facts actually were. It has been stated this has cost our club 2 million dollars in lost sponsorship and membership.

A true supporter would NEVER air their clubs issues publicly and then let it inevitably overrun.

What would most people do if they had a problem in their family ? Would they want it to go public and let the story escalate or deal with it within the family ?

If you are a true supporter Mr Fine then the club is your family.

[Scollop]

My personal opinion is:

When the first rumblings about the coach appeared pre the B&F, I spent time at the B&F talking with players, admin, board members etc and there is no doubt the complaints are from senior players and they are based on the coaches focus being on 2016+ which discounts them personally from serious finals action. It is hard for these champs of the past 10+ years to hear that they are not the focus going forward, that a forward line will not be built around one player and that a midfielder who should be a hard working leader will not be sent back to half back to release a tag ... because pandering to these individual needs hurts the team overall and especially hurts team development. Personally I congratulate the coach for taking the team approach.

BINGO

[plugger66]

Not one young player improved in 2013, except Steven and can someone tell me what our game style is at present?
What brand of footy do we stand for?

Players that improved in and through 2013:

1. Hickey
2. Steven
3. Ross
4. Lee
5. Geary
6. Newnes
7. Roberton
8. Gilbert (not young but back to his best)
9. Armitage
10. Webster
11. Murdoch
12. Wright
13. Saunders
14. Maister (huge improvement pre injury)
15. Minchington
16. Curren

There was improvement.

Our season was destroyed by injury to key personnel and inadequate depth in those positions - this particularly impacted our backline and we leaked goals.

Our game plan is not unlike those of other teams but with the team we had on the park with 6 to 10 young players each week was not experienced enough or fit enough (with one or two pre-seasons behind them) ... which is why we were competitive for a time but at the end of quarters and at the end of the match we were simply overrun.

Lets be honest if all those players improved during the year then we have some other real issues. If individuals improve but the side gets worse which it did then the game plan is stuffed. And yes we had a few injuries but apart hayes none to the most important area on the ground, the midfield. I have no idea if SW can coach or not yet but those saying he cant and those saying he can must have some sort of agendas because i cant see proof either way. happy for those on both sides to present arguements to prove it one way or another.

[st.byron]

Thanks St Byron....most of what you say is right.
Although disagree with you on Finey.
I think he is a mad saints man and did what he did because he knows things that make him believe that we need to change our coach.
I only want what is best for the Saints.
If the board think it is SW then so be it.
The problem is the board don't share this belief and would have acted but felt it was too unsettling with no CEO at the helm.
So we go into next year with a coach that the board and players don't want.
Even though we performed well at trade week it will be a long year until our board can manage the club properly.

Sad to know that SW is going into next year something of a lame duck. I wouldn't want to be in a job knowing the only reason I wasn't sacked was beacuse another position was also vacant at the time. It's certainly no vote of confidence from the board in SW.

About Fine.....I can only comment from reading the descriptions on here of what he's said, but if he's a real Saints man then he's not a very intelligent one. That and a twat chasing ratings. Exactly what the club didn't need is a high profile supposed supporter publicly bagging the club on radio to a wide audience. His raves make not a jot of difference to the board's process and the only thing it can achieve is encourage people to think badly of the club.

[samoht]

We need to cut SW some slack going forward.

We were under rapid decline under RL (20 wins, 15 wins, 12 wins in successive years) - so logically that declining trend was still going to continue as our experienced stars age or leave (Ball, Goddard and now Dal) and we try to develop the youngsters - and we haven't had the benefit of top draft picks until this year.

RL's recycling policy, our team's recent success and our aging and departing stars are going to make things tough for a while.

So let's be realistic and patient.
SW certainly is!

[Cairnsman]

Byron
You misconstrue egoism.
There is an element of egoism about saying trust me im in the know and take my word for it.
Just follow me on trust. Thats egoism.
I dont want all the gory details or anyone to give up their sources but we have not got a semblance of substance at all.
Im not going to join a hang mob based purely on a wink or nod from a self proclaimed insider.
Im not demanding equal knowledge nor do i expect it just something slightly above innuendo and a knudge before i get my noose out.
Hardly egoism on our part.

Fair call Con. Good argument.
I don't reckon that Jaxons is calling for a hang mob. Doesn't give me that impression. Passing on info with as much detail as possible without doing damage to the club is how I read his posts.
Fine on the other hand, without having heard him myself, seems to be making shyte up and stirring up rumour without much consideration of the club's best interests.

Thanks St Byron....most of what you say is right.
Although disagree with you on Finey.
I think he is a mad saints man and did what he did because he knows things that make him believe that we need to change our coach.
I only want what is best for the Saints.
If the board think it is SW then so be it.
The problem is the board don't share this belief and would have acted but felt it was too unsettling with no CEO at the helm.
So we go into next year with a coach that the board and players don't want.
Even though we performed well at trade week it will be a long year until our board can manage the club properly.

Aren't you just regurgitating unsubstantiated facts now.

And as far as Finey is concerned on this matter he is just choosing between survival and supporting a football club. Finey is just like you, he is just trying to get people to listen.

Where does Finey's career go after SEN are finished with him, maybe he can work for the Leader news papers.

[maverick]

Whilst I have no doubt some people at the club have issues with SW, nothing has been posted to substantiate any of the bulldust that has been put out on radio, so how can any of us judge, until anything is posted to back up his claims, I will remain sceptical. Personally sick of changes to back rooms and not on field when things are not 100% right....

In terms of player development, I remember the same thing being said at the end of 2007, with a vastly superior list.....

Put up or shut up.

[defacto]

Not one young player improved in 2013, except Steven and can someone tell me what our game style is at present?
What brand of footy do we stand for?

Players that improved in and through 2013:

1. Hickey
2. Steven
3. Ross
4. Lee
5. Geary
6. Newnes
7. Roberton
8. Gilbert (not young but back to his best)
9. Armitage
10. Webster
11. Murdoch
12. Wright
13. Saunders
14. Maister (huge improvement pre injury)
15. Minchington
16. Curren

There was improvement.

Our season was destroyed by injury to key personnel and inadequate depth in those positions - this particularly impacted our backline and we leaked goals.

Our game plan is not unlike those of other teams but with the team we had on the park with 6 to 10 young players each week was not experienced enough or fit enough (with one or two pre-seasons behind them) ... which is why we were competitive for a time but at the end of quarters and at the end of the match we were simply overrun.

Lets be honest if all those players improved during the year then we have some other real issues. If individuals improve but the side gets worse which it did then the game plan is stuffed. And yes we had a few injuries but apart hayes none to the most important area on the ground, the midfield. I have no idea if SW can coach or not yet but those saying he cant and those saying he can must have some sort of agendas because i cant see proof either way. happy for those on both sides to present arguements to prove it one way or another.

Lol improvement doesn't have to mean there yet. We have a long way to go but each of those players have improved under watters. Surely you agree

[Cairnsman]

Thanks St Byron....most of what you say is right.
Although disagree with you on Finey.
I think he is a mad saints man and did what he did because he knows things that make him believe that we need to change our coach.
I only want what is best for the Saints.
If the board think it is SW then so be it.
The problem is the board don't share this belief and would have acted but felt it was too unsettling with no CEO at the helm.
So we go into next year with a coach that the board and players don't want.
Even though we performed well at trade week it will be a long year until our board can manage the club properly.

Sad to know that SW is going into next year something of a lame duck. I wouldn't want to be in a job knowing the only reason I wasn't sacked was beacuse another position was also vacant at the time. It's certainly no vote of confidence from the board in SW.

About Fine.....I can only comment from reading the descriptions on here of what he's said, but if he's a real Saints man then he's not a very intelligent one. That and a twat chasing ratings. Exactly what the club didn't need is a high profile supposed supporter publicly bagging the club on radio to a wide audience. His raves make not a jot of difference to the board's process and the only thing it can achieve is encourage people to think badly of the club.

Yes Caro wrote a similar thing regarding the alleged non-removal of SW due to there being no CEO, HOWEVER, the important thing to remember about this unsubstantiated fact is that it was in the email that both Caro and Jaxons shared. That doesn't make the information factual one little bit, in actual fact I can't recall having heard the board coming even close to saying anything like that.

[Johnny Member]

Not one young player improved in 2013, except Steven and can someone tell me what our game style is at present?
What brand of footy do we stand for?

Players that improved in and through 2013:

1. Hickey
2. Steven
3. Ross
4. Lee
5. Geary
6. Newnes
7. Roberton
8. Gilbert (not young but back to his best)
9. Armitage
10. Webster
11. Murdoch
12. Wright
13. Saunders
14. Maister (huge improvement pre injury)
15. Minchington
16. Curren

There was improvement.

Our season was destroyed by injury to key personnel and inadequate depth in those positions - this particularly impacted our backline and we leaked goals.

Our game plan is not unlike those of other teams but with the team we had on the park with 6 to 10 young players each week was not experienced enough or fit enough (with one or two pre-seasons behind them) ... which is why we were competitive for a time but at the end of quarters and at the end of the match we were simply overrun.

Lets be honest if all those players improved during the year then we have some other real issues. If individuals improve but the side gets worse which it did then the game plan is stuffed. And yes we had a few injuries but apart hayes none to the most important area on the ground, the midfield. I have no idea if SW can coach or not yet but those saying he cant and those saying he can must have some sort of agendas because i cant see proof either way. happy for those on both sides to present arguements to prove it one way or another.

I think it says more about the list that Watters inherited.

Looking at the above list, I'd actually agree that that they all improved.

It was countered however, by losing Goddard, having no Fisher, barely having Gwilt, Blake being basically retired, Hayes being out, McEvoy getting worse, Milne dropping off and the above mentioned guys basically playing their first season together.


I do agree with this comment though:

"I have no idea if SW can coach or not yet but those saying he cant and those saying he can must have some sort of agendas because i cant see proof either way. happy for those on both sides to present arguements to prove it one way or another"

To present results and/or performances from last year as evidence that he can't coach is madness.

However what I have seen, and heard (which some see clearly as a negative) suggest that we're heading in the right direction. Whether or not he's capable of bringing it to fruition, time will tell - but I firmly believe his ideals are spot on.

[thejiggingsaint]

+1 Excellent post Johnny!

[Johnny Member]

Finey didn't because he couldn't, it wasn't his place to expose it publically.

I don't understand, nor agree with this thougth process.



Is it worse to publicly announce with extreme emotion, that the coach is so awful and that the club is in such a horrible state of disarray - but leave everyone hanging as to the details behind it and allow them all to come up with their own theories.

Or to publicly announce with extreme emotion, that the coach is so awful and that the club is in such a horrible state of disarray - and explain exactly why so the fans and public can react accordingly knowing the actual facts.



In my opinion, the first option is far more destabilising and damaging to a club or any entity. Having a deadset public hissy fit with strong suggestions as to the extent of the problems with the coach, without clarifying the facts is far worse for the club and the coach than actually presenting the facts.

Currently, we have the public, and the fans, circling the joint, with theories developing from him being an adulterer, to a bully, to a deadset arsehole, to him being present in Portugal when Madelaince McCann went missing!

What could possibly be more damaging or destabilising to the club than the way that Mark Fine (and also yourself to an extent) has presented his story and opinion?

[maverick]

Finey didn't because he couldn't, it wasn't his place to expose it publically.

I don't understand, nor agree with this thougth process.



Is it worse to publicly announce with extreme emotion, that the coach is so awful and that the club is in such a horrible state of disarray - but leave everyone hanging as to the details behind it and allow them all to come up with their own theories.

Or to publicly announce with extreme emotion, that the coach is so awful and that the club is in such a horrible state of disarray - and explain exactly why so the fans and public can react accordingly knowing the actual facts.



In my opinion, the first option is far more destabilising and damaging to a club or any entity. Having a deadset public hissy fit with strong suggestions as to the extent of the problems with the coach, without clarifying the facts is far worse for the club and the coach than actually presenting the facts.

Currently, we have the public, and the fans, circling the joint, with theories developing from him being an adulterer, to a bully, to a deadset arsehole, to him being present in Portugal when Madelaince McCann went missing!

What could possibly be more damaging or destabilising to the club than the way that Mark Fine (and also yourself to an extent) has presented his story and opinion?

Totally agree, option 1 is far worse.

[dragit]

Nailed it johnny… It's not about whether or not Watters is any good… Fine has been purely inflammatory… and damaging… not helpful.

[stinger]

What is unsettling is people insinuating problems without revealing what they are

Evidently the biggest threat to the club are self-important supposed insiders like yourself and Finey for spreading innuendo without being prepared to substantiate it

And you want respect??

FFS Devilhead, Con, et al.....get over it.
Some people are closer to the club than you or me and know shyte we don't. They come onto the forum and let us know that things aren't all rosy but for reasons they judge to be sound, can't say exactly what the gory details are. I'm glad at least to have the info that's been given rather than spitting the dummy because everything's not being made public. There's an element of egotism in you expecting everything to be openly shared. Just accept some are closer to the club than you or I......

i think some are claiming that they are close to the club..and others think they are just full of it...jaxons such a person.... much prefer tony who is actually close to the club....now they can't both be right can they????

[stinger]

Some people are closer to the club than you or me and know shyte we don't.

Shyte being the appropriate word

They come onto the forum and let us know that things aren't all rosy but for reasons they judge to be sound, can't say exactly what the gory details are.

But how can I judge them to be sound if I dont know what the gory details are??

But hey I am happy that you are wilfully prepared to accept unsubstantiated hearsay on a social forum that has the potential to effectively damage the club's immediate well being

Each to their own

I'm glad at least to have the info that's been given rather than spitting the dummy because everything's not being made public.

Seriously what's there to be happy about - you have unsubstantiated innuendo that is damging the club period

There's an element of egotism in you expecting everything to be openly shared. Just accept some are closer to the club than you or I......

very well said..imho...

If you have unsettling information about the club you have three choices

1 - reveal it with substantaited evidence
2 - reveal it without substantiated evidence
3 - dont reveal it

Jaxons and Finey chose 2

If I was in their position I would choose 3

Why would I pander to the likes of you if not to stoke my own ego and build up my reputation of being "In the know"

If you had the clubs best interest at heart then you would ...... Shut the F*** Up!!