List Management 101

[Lyon Tamer]

At the beginning of the 2013 season, our list was in an abysmal state, the worst in the league, taking into account the age of our top ten players, the lack of middle range players and the lack of quality youth coming through. There are good reasons why this is the case such as topping up for a premiership, which most people agreed with at the time.

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.

1. One or two A graders (preferably midfielders). They don’t exist yet. Will hopefully come from Pick 3 and our 2014 1st draft pick (possibly pick 1?).

2. Most or all of our young core or players to become B graders. Specifically the key position players such as Lee, Stanley, Hickey, Delaney, Bruce(?) and Longer(?).

3. Have at least 10 midfielder players who can make an impact and are natural footballers. Currently we have (excl those aged 28+) Ross, Newmes, Steven, Saunders, Armo, Wright, Geary. This can be improved with our later 1st round picks this year and next.

4. Back your choices in. If we draft a FB, back yourself that we won’t need to draft another one. Have faith that the player will make it in a couple of years or so.

5. Keep contracts in check so that in 2015, just as we are moving up the ladder; land a big name free agent, no need to get one before. Hopefully someone who will help on field, but also someone who is marketable and help drive back the fans.

6. Change the definition of success for 2014. Success should be judged on how many Rising Star awards we get and how many of our young players become reliable and developed footballers. Give them every chance by playing them in key positions during key times within games.

7. A club (board, coaches, players, staff) that is united and professional and is process driven.

We are in for a bumpy ride in the next 2 years and I’m not sure if I have the stomach for it, however given that we have an almost blank canvas, we have an opportunity to set our list and club as one of the most successful in the AFL.

Is there anything else I missed?

[saintspremiers]

Should we trade out anyone at the end of next year?

[borderbarry]

You have left out Curren in your list as mids, and he is better several of the others.

[st.dave]

For me the key for the new generation of players developing is the senior players we keep around/trade in to mentor them. There has to be a good balance of keeping leaders without taking games away from developing players and how we phase people in and out. The gap of players in our mid 20's age bracket has also given us a gap in our leadership. The youngest guys at the club for me are going to be our next leaders, but really don't want to see a scenario like they had at Melbourne. IMO their young players were given too much leadership responsibility early and with their club under a large amount of external pressure it impacted negatively on both leadership and their development as players.

As you said it's going to be a tough couple of years and when a club is in rebuild mode sitting at the bottom of the ladder they are everyone's whipping boy. Add to this that the Saints haven't won a premiership since '66, in financial trouble, our move to Seaford is questionable and don't have a proven coach it makes us a really easy target for negativity on pretty much every level. I have no doubt these things will all improve in time, but until we show improvement really want to see our younger focused on developing as players without the added external pressures. For this to happen i think having a small but strong core of senior leadership to mentor these guys both on and off the field, and then timing the transition for when they are ready is pivotal.

[oldie60]

As much as SW and Pelchen don't see eye to eye its apparent we will be in a strong position over the next couple of years to have adequate funds to snaffle a couple of free agents.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.

What we need to see for when? in 2014? For our next premiership challenge?

If it's the latter, then we're going to need many more than "One or two A graders".

At the beginning of the 2013 season, our list was in an abysmal state, the worst in the league, taking into account the age of our top ten players, the lack of middle range players and the lack of quality youth coming through. There are good reasons why this is the case such as topping up for a premiership, which most people agreed with at the time.

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.

1. One or two A graders (preferably midfielders). They don’t exist yet. Will hopefully come from Pick 3 and our 2014 1st draft pick (possibly pick 1?).

2. Most or all of our young core or players to become B graders. Specifically the key position players such as Lee, Stanley, Hickey, Delaney, Bruce(?) and Longer(?).

3. Have at least 10 midfielder players who can make an impact and are natural footballers. Currently we have (excl those aged 28+) Ross, Newmes, Steven, Saunders, Armo, Wright, Geary. This can be improved with our later 1st round picks this year and next.

4. Back your choices in. If we draft a FB, back yourself that we won’t need to draft another one. Have faith that the player will make it in a couple of years or so.

5. Keep contracts in check so that in 2015, just as we are moving up the ladder; land a big name free agent, no need to get one before. Hopefully someone who will help on field, but also someone who is marketable and help drive back the fans.

6. Change the definition of success for 2014. Success should be judged on how many Rising Star awards we get and how many of our young players become reliable and developed footballers. Give them every chance by playing them in key positions during key times within games.

7. A club (board, coaches, players, staff) that is united and professional and is process driven.

We are in for a bumpy ride in the next 2 years and I’m not sure if I have the stomach for it, however given that we have an almost blank canvas, we have an opportunity to set our list and club as one of the most successful in the AFL.

Is there anything else I missed?

Number 7 - needs to be priority number 1 above everything else by a long, long way.

Number 6 - Summers has already mentioned that the success of 2014 won't be judged by the win-loss column. I hope that turns out to be the case.

Number 2 - All due respect to Delaney I don't think he has the talent level to be a B-level player in the AFL. He is a stop-gap in my eyes, and is part of the reason why we also need to get Bruce - who has a higher development ceiling. The guys that I think can become B grade level players by the end of '14 are: Curren, Newnes, Ross, Savage, Lee, Wright.

Number 3 - In terms of round 1 2014, I reckon the only youngsters who are ready to compete in the midfield will be: Curren and Ross. I'm sure Wright, Saunders and Murdoch will get rotated through but they look a fair way off really being ready. What I'm saying is - the midfield is a long way off at the minute.

[oldie60]

I think we just need to look at Port Adelaide to see its possible with the right people and players wanting to play for the club and its supporters.

[Lyon Tamer]

What we need to see for when? in 2014? For our next premiership challenge?

If it's the latter, then we're going to need many more than "One or two A graders".

I guess it depends what you class as an A grader but I think depth and plenty of reliable B graders are just as important, if not more

[Eastern]

What we need to see for when? in 2014? For our next premiership challenge?

If it's the latter, then we're going to need many more than "One or two A graders".

I guess it depends what you class as an A grader but I think depth and plenty of reliable B graders are just as important, if not more

I think Chris Pelchen uses a formula that includes at least 2 x AA & a B&F or 2 x B&F and an AA. He also said that you need at least five of these to win a Premiership. Sounds about right !!

[bobmurray]

At the beginning of the 2013 season, our list was in an abysmal state, the worst in the league, taking into account the age of our top ten players, the lack of middle range players and the lack of quality youth coming through. There are good reasons why this is the case such as topping up for a premiership, which most people agreed with at the time.

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.

1. One or two A graders (preferably midfielders). They don’t exist yet. Will hopefully come from Pick 3 and our 2014 1st draft pick (possibly pick 1?).

2. Most or all of our young core or players to become B graders. Specifically the key position players such as Lee, Stanley, Hickey, Delaney, Bruce(?) and Longer(?).

3. Have at least 10 midfielder players who can make an impact and are natural footballers. Currently we have (excl those aged 28+) Ross, Newmes, Steven, Saunders, Armo, Wright, Geary. This can be improved with our later 1st round picks this year and next.

4. Back your choices in. If we draft a FB, back yourself that we won’t need to draft another one. Have faith that the player will make it in a couple of years or so.

5. Keep contracts in check so that in 2015, just as we are moving up the ladder; land a big name free agent, no need to get one before. Hopefully someone who will help on field, but also someone who is marketable and help drive back the fans.

6. Change the definition of success for 2014. Success should be judged on how many Rising Star awards we get and how many of our young players become reliable and developed footballers. Give them every chance by playing them in key positions during key times within games.

7. A club (board, coaches, players, staff) that is united and professional and is process driven.

We are in for a bumpy ride in the next 2 years and I’m not sure if I have the stomach for it, however given that we have an almost blank canvas, we have an opportunity to set our list and club as one of the most successful in the AFL.

Is there anything else I missed?

We don't have Bruce and seems less likely now that we'll get him, we don't have a pick to give them unless SOS thinks Bruce is a Spud and he'll gladly accept a pick at around 55

[plugger66]

At the beginning of the 2013 season, our list was in an abysmal state, the worst in the league, taking into account the age of our top ten players, the lack of middle range players and the lack of quality youth coming through. There are good reasons why this is the case such as topping up for a premiership, which most people agreed with at the time.

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.

1. One or two A graders (preferably midfielders). They don’t exist yet. Will hopefully come from Pick 3 and our 2014 1st draft pick (possibly pick 1?).

2. Most or all of our young core or players to become B graders. Specifically the key position players such as Lee, Stanley, Hickey, Delaney, Bruce(?) and Longer(?).

3. Have at least 10 midfielder players who can make an impact and are natural footballers. Currently we have (excl those aged 28+) Ross, Newmes, Steven, Saunders, Armo, Wright, Geary. This can be improved with our later 1st round picks this year and next.

4. Back your choices in. If we draft a FB, back yourself that we won’t need to draft another one. Have faith that the player will make it in a couple of years or so.

5. Keep contracts in check so that in 2015, just as we are moving up the ladder; land a big name free agent, no need to get one before. Hopefully someone who will help on field, but also someone who is marketable and help drive back the fans.

6. Change the definition of success for 2014. Success should be judged on how many Rising Star awards we get and how many of our young players become reliable and developed footballers. Give them every chance by playing them in key positions during key times within games.

7. A club (board, coaches, players, staff) that is united and professional and is process driven.

We are in for a bumpy ride in the next 2 years and I’m not sure if I have the stomach for it, however given that we have an almost blank canvas, we have an opportunity to set our list and club as one of the most successful in the AFL.

Is there anything else I missed?

We don't have Bruce and seems less likely now that we'll get him, we don't have a pick to give them unless SOS thinks Bruce is a Spud and he'll gladly accept a pick at around 55

Dont we have 41 and there is also the PSD. I think we will still get both Longer and Bruce.

[bobmurray]

Friday post 2.00pm we'll know how it panned out, if we want to keep our top 3 picks in the draft then either Brisbane or GWS will have to admit their player is a spud for us to get them both this week. The PSD will be a raffle, Melbourne will trump us if either player is still available, we don't have the smarts to rig it like Collingwobble did with ball

[plugger66]

Friday post 2.00pm we'll know how it panned out, if we want to keep our top 3 picks in the draft then either Brisbane or GWS will have to admit their player is a spud for us to get them both this week. The PSD will be a raffle, Melbourne will trump us if either player is still available, we don't have the smarts to rig it like Collingwobble did with ball

It shouldnt be that hard. We would have much more space in the cap than the Dees so we front end the contract.

[cross2012]

Hope we get Longer. I think he has the potential to be A grade. I saw a few of his games this year and his ruck work, particularly to Black, was very good. If we land him, I think he will go past Hickey very quickly. Also think Delaney could be a very serviceable and atleast as good an option as Mitch Brown would have been.

[seenyer]

What are people's thoughts on why our list is in the relatively crap state that we find it in now - and particularly the nose-dive we experienced from our recent GF tilts - compared to the 'renew and stay very competitive' approach of teams like Geelong and the Swans?

[Rosco]

What are people's thoughts on why our list is in the relatively crap state that we find it in now - and particularly the nose-dive we experienced from our recent GF tilts - compared to the 'renew and stay very competitive' approach of teams like Geelong and the Swans?

it's called "drafting and trading poorly for 5 years", at least in the context of the future; or trading for "now" (which is now "then").

[Lyon Tamer]

What are people's thoughts on why our list is in the relatively crap state that we find it in now - and particularly the nose-dive we experienced from our recent GF tilts - compared to the 'renew and stay very competitive' approach of teams like Geelong and the Swans?

Both teams have won premierships. It's easier to keep an eye on the future after that.

[Scollop]

Sifted through a few topics from 2012 and found this;

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76452&hilit=generation

Dan how many players of the 22 that played last night do you believe will be retired by the end of 2014?

Lets have a look at ages at the end of 2014:
Blake 35
Clarke 29
Dal Santo 30
Dempster 30
Fisher 32
Gilbert 29
Goddard 30
Gram 30
Hayes 34
C. Jones 30
Kosi 32
Milne 35
schneider 32
Monty 31
Peakes 31
Roo 32
--------------
Not saying any will be gone or not, but injury, form, free trade etc would suggest that at least 1/2 of the above players will be gone by or at the end of 2014.

Some of the above players represent once in a generation talent.

The scales are tipped...9 out of 16 retired/delisted or traded.

It's now up to the next generation.

Work your backsides off and GO Saints!!!

[Southern Moss]

At the beginning of the 2013 season, our list was in an abysmal state, the worst in the league, taking into account the age of our top ten players, the lack of middle range players and the lack of quality youth coming through. There are good reasons why this is the case such as topping up for a premiership, which most people agreed with at the time.

So now that we are completely redeveloping our list, this is what I think we need to see.
T
1. One or two A graders (preferably midfielders). They don’t exist yet. Will hopefully come from Pick 3 and our 2014 1st draft pick (possibly pick 1?).

2. Most or all of our young core or players to become B graders. Specifically the key position players such as Lee, Stanley, Hickey, Delaney, Bruce(?) and Longer(?).

3. Have at least 10 midfielder players who can make an impact and are natural footballers. Currently we have (excl those aged 28+) Ross, Newmes, Steven, Saunders, Armo, Wright, Geary. This can be improved with our later 1st round picks this year and next.

4. Back your choices in. If we draft a FB, back yourself that we won’t need to draft another one. Have faith that the player will make it in a couple of years or so.

5. Keep contracts in check so that in 2015, just as we are moving up the ladder; land a big name free agent, no need to get one before. Hopefully someone who will help on field, but also someone who is marketable and help drive back the fans.

6. Change the definition of success for 2014. Success should be judged on how many Rising Star awards we get and how many of our young players become reliable and developed footballers. Give them every chance by playing them in key positions during key times within games.

7. A club (board, coaches, players, staff) that is united and professional and is process driven.

We are in for a bumpy ride in the next 2 years and I’m not sure if I have the stomach for it, however given that we have an almost blank canvas, we have an opportunity to set our list and club as one of the most successful in the AFL.

Is there anything else I missed?

Great post LT. For 8, I would add that we also need to align the list to a gameplan. We can never merely develop the best list: 17 other teams compete for the same players. But we can develop a list that is the best on a particular set of attributes and then develop a gameplan that exploits these attributes, like Hawthorn. A list with many elite endurance runners for example could thrive if the gameplan utilized this skill. The benefit of a strategic list is that you may prefer players that other teams discard, decreasing the premium we need to pay.