Pick 3- who will we take?

[joffaboy]

Magic

Given our current position.... Agree with your comments

Pity they are sarcastic

Do you think we are in a healthy state...

Joffa
Billings is not hopeless.... Xavier Clarke was not hopeless .... Nor Tambling (A jet U18)
He's jus more a HF and I would select a pure midfielder ATM give losses of BJ, Dal, soon to be Lenny, CJ and Joey

But you quote me how you like?

I didn't quote anybody.

I have not seen Billings and from the sounds of it he doesn't play much in the midfield.

Would have thought we were after a midfielder considering that is part of the stated strategy.

Why do we want a forward who can sometimes play mid?

We cant waste #3 and sounds like Billings is not the right fit.

So what is the clubs rationale for putting him in the frame?

Are they totally incompetent at our club? Dont they know anything about football?

I honestly dont understand why they would consider a risk like Billings if what is being said about him is true.

[Mr Magic]

Magic

Given our current position.... Agree with your comments

Pity they are sarcastic

Do you think we are in a healthy state...

Joffa
Billings is not hopeless.... Xavier Clarke was not hopeless .... Nor Tambling (A jet U18)
He's jus more a HF and I would select a pure midfielder ATM give losses of BJ, Dal, soon to be Lenny, CJ and Joey

But you quote me how you like?

Our list is far from healthy, the natural result of a recruiting plan that put the 'here and now' ahead of 'future development'.

BUT the truth is that posters like you don't really care who we draft (and why we draft them) as you seemingly are only interested in the opportunity it affords you to 'bag out' the Club and everybody involved.

Given your 'insights' into the area, derived from your 'experience' in such matters why don't you nominate your selections for picks 1-20.
If you do it before the draft we will all have the opportunity to 'test' your picks against those of the professionals at all clubs.
Surely if you're going to bag the recruiters (and you will if the past is any guide to the future) then it's not too much to ask you to offer your opinions on who should be taken by which clubs?
I cannot give an opinion on who is better for which club because I have no 'experience' in such matters.

So here's your opportunity to 'silence' posters like me who think you're an incessant bagger of the Club that never actually publishes an opinion until after the event.
An opportunity to let your opinions do your talking.

[joffaboy]

Without this sounding like a witchhunt, I too am interested in your opinion BM.

But for me I would be more interested in your alternative #3 and your reasons for that choice in relation to the list needs and as a difference to Billings and what he may bring.

As for the health of the club, a bit of general statement from you. Do you mean the list, which I am in total agreement with (and the reason for the radical rebuild I would imagine) or the club in general.

Because if it is the club in general, I would direct you to the thread about certain emails posted by ToT.

Many people drank the kool aid and the "rumours" have all been shown to be totally without foundation.

So in a nutshell, your pick for #3 and reasons. And what health are you talking about?

[Eastern]

THREADS LIKE THIS ARE A REFRENCE POINT FOR RECRUITERS & PLAYER MANAGERS

You see, none of them are permitted to make any contact with potential draftees between last Friday (18th) and a couple of days before the Draft !!

[gringo]

Gringo you need to stop comparing the players in this draft to others to prove your point why we should take a player you want. As I said yesterday id rather Dal or Joey than TDL or Milera. means jack all of it. And you can pick anyone you like, I was just pointing out I have never heard of mid being to tall for a mid.

Bontempelli is 194 and some say 196 and still growing but he isn't too tall to play as a mid? Maybe we should just draft Longer as a mid then that way you won't stress about it.[/quote]


Its simple really. if he has the skills of a mid you can never be to big. If hasnt got the skills of a mid he wouldnt be playing there now or did he grow after the season finished. Explain how you can be to big if he already ha midfield skills?[/quote]


I disagree on mid fielders but that's cool. Cods was already a very tall mid but has continued growing and at the combine measured taller again and is considered to be still growing. He would be the tallest mid in history if he was 196 but if he gets to 200cm or what ever does he then get too big? Adam Goodes plays like a mid at times but he can also play forward and ruck and did at under 18 level so was already a known quantity. I'm just saying he's drifting from where he might otherwise be placed in the draft because he is an unusual height for his position and may need to reinvent himself as a rebound defender or half forward.

Josh Kennedy is about Goddard's Height at around 188cm or 6'2" and is considered the archetype tall modern mid. At 196 Bontempelli would be about 6' 6" or 3cm taller than Nick Riewoldt. Koutifedes was only 5'11" and he was considered an extremely tall midfield player when he moved in there.

[Mr Magic]

I thought Kouta was around 190cms?

IIRC he played more like the old traditional Ruckrover than what I think of as a midfielder today (rover, centreman, wingman in the old terminology)

[stinger]

Josh Kennedy is about Goddard's Height at around 188cm or 6'2" and is considered the archetype tall modern mid. At 196 Bontempelli would be about 6' 6" or 3cm taller than Nick Riewoldt. Koutifedes was only 5'11" and he was considered an extremely tall midfield player when he moved in there.

i think bj was 188/189 when initially drafted..he said himself that he had grown 2/3 cm since then......he is more like 191/192cm these days....

[gringo]

I thought Kouta was around 190cms?

IIRC he played more like the old traditional Ruckrover than what I think of as a midfielder today (rover, centreman, wingman in the old terminology)

I would have said he played a lot like a modern mid with his ability to break through the pack with his core strength and win contested possession while keeping his feet. He kind of hit the ball moving at speed from the ruck tap. I think teams kind of saw the way he played and set up to take advantage of the modern athletes playing today. Judd and co probably owe a bit to the way Kouta pioneered the centre set ups. Well that's my memory of him anyway.

I have 3 Blues fans in my family so I have had to endure years of watching Carlton matches and as much as it hurts to admit it he was a gun Kouta. He could play anywhere on the ground and make a go of it, he was unique in his day but now is the norm with one dimensional players getting left out of the system more and more.

[gringo]

Josh Kennedy is about Goddard's Height at around 188cm or 6'2" and is considered the archetype tall modern mid. At 196 Bontempelli would be about 6' 6" or 3cm taller than Nick Riewoldt. Koutifedes was only 5'11" and he was considered an extremely tall midfield player when he moved in there.

i think bj was 188/189 when initially drafted..he said himself that he had grown 2/3 cm since then......he is more like 191/192cm these days....

I have met Goddard a few times and I'm 188cm and we are nearly nose to nose he might be a few cms taller than that but he wouldn't be over 190cm IMO.

[BigMart]

I have made comments ATT with relation to what I felt about picks that we selected? Was belted by posters like you two

There are 5 infamous examples which we don't speak of

I have been wrong about recruits more often than right.... But unfortunately so has the club.... I am not a full time recruiter, don't get 500k per year to manage the list... Don't have the time (as I once did) to see the champs or research selections - which was a fun past time for me... Being interested in Junior Footy.

One thing Ican do, like any armchair expert.... Is comment on our performance and as a member have an opinion?!

Some examples over the years of who I have been keen on us drafting

1-players I would have selected who have failed generally
Josh Dicketts, Barry Brooks, Sam Power, Paul Johnson, Roury Kirkby, Adam Fisher, David Robbins, Ryley Dunn, Daniel Conners, Brett Robinson, David Gourdis, Luke Lowden, recently Gartlett and Manson there are more I forget

2- players I would have selected that we did
Riewoldt & Kosi (given). Ball, Raph, McQualter, Eddy, Dal, L.Fisher, J.Allen, McEvoy, Steven (smart selection)

3 - players I would have overlooked
Maguire, Montagna, Ferguson, S.Fisher (didn't know much about him), S.Gilbert, Armitage, Rix, T.Lynch, Winmar, Cripps, Crocker, Ross, Sweeney, Howard, Gwilt, Raymond

4- players I was keen on that have done well or OK
Steve Johnson, Andrew Carrazzo, Paul Bevan, Joel McDonald, Aaron Edwards, Andrew Swallow, Heath Grundy, Jackson Trengrove, Jack Reiwoldt, J.Darling, Sam Kerridge.... And a few others

Drafting is a not exact but really I don't think our full time recruiting staff has performed well?? Of course, Nor have I.... But why would anyone expect me to be anywhere near right?

I would have definitely taken who were perceived best footballers over any other criteria a and it was up to the development staff to work on other areas... I would back the club staff and leadership to develop a Darling or Gartlett for instance...


Our trading has been excellent IMO
Hall, Penny, Gram, Everitt, Guerra, Watts, Ray, Gardiner, Dempster, Peake, Schnieder, King, Fiora, Saad/Milera.... All in a heartbeat

IMO
Ball was a fiasco
BJ unavoidable
Dal unfortunate
Lovett .... My opinion well publicised - disgraceful to give up a FRP for him
Cousins... Well publicised

Other matures I would have definitely looked at but unlikely
Nick Davis, Nathan Brown, Brendon Fevola, Steven Salopek.

Rookie Selection very good in recent times



On this year

I have already stated
Kelly or Sharunberg would be my preference at 3
Hartung would be a target at 14 (trade for) or 18
Dom Sheed, Dunstan, Acres and Dumpnt in that order....for the other top 20 pick

[Mr Magic]

Thank you for at least partially responding to the actual questions asked.

I'm not speaking for JB and only for myself.
I believe I criticised your opinion re drafting only on Cousins. I don't recall criticising you specifically about us drafting/not drafting any other player ATT.
I certainly have criticised you consistently for being a 'hindsight Harry' on draft/trading selections.

Interestingly you are forthright in your criticisms of past trading decisions based on absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances that were prevalent when those decisions were taken.

Even the Lovett pick, which very few now feel was a correct move must have had 'circumstances' that caused it to occur.
I don't think even you would claim that those responsible for the final decision to select him did so in the full knowledge of what was to transpire.
Even you surely must grant that they would have done some (if not extensive) due diligence on him. hey would have spoken to all sorts of people who could/would have given insights into Lovett. They do that for every kid they draft so surely it would have been similar to someone with the 'baggage' that he had.
They certainly got it wrong, but was it something that could have been foreseen with the 'backgrounding' they did?

That's my major issue with your posts on drafting/trading.
You mainly post in a negative manner based on a 'black/white' basis. You take no heed of anything between black/white.
A basis that you know is false and yet you choose to base your criticisms on a false premise.

You post 'with certainty of opinion' and yet you know nothing about the background circumstances which are the basis of those decisions.
The Club don't tell us why they make certain decisions, yet you feel it is fine to 'bag' those decisions absent any reasons.

I choose to believe that even our recruiters know a little more than you or me and that there are valid reasons as to why they make the decisions they do.
Of course they don't always get it right, in hindsight.
But at the time they make their decisions based on the information they have gathered.

But,
I'd love to know the reasoning for the Howard selection which I find to be the most puzzling we've made in the last 10 years.

[joffaboy]

On this year

I have already stated
Kelly or Sharunberg would be my preference at 3
Hartung would be a target at 14 (trade for) or 18
Dom Sheed, Dunstan, Acres and Dumpnt in that order....for the other top 20 pick

Cool thank you.

What do you think Kelly or Sharunberg brings to our list that Billings cant?

This is not a set up, I genuinely haven't seen any of these players except a couple of youtube clips.

What is the difference, are Kelly and Sharunberg inside where Billing is an outside mid? Speed? Height? Skills? What the Saints need in relation to the relative skills of the other young mids.

I would be interested to know why you say these two over Billings (and don't even mention Aish who many seem to favour).

As for bagging you - yes I did over Howard, because you were trashing him a minute after he was selected. I support all of our player and want nothing but the best for them all of them to succeed. I think all the kids should be given a chance to see if they will make it.

If you remember you also bagged out Armitage because he was from queensland and Cripps because there was no photo of him.

Anyway not interested in the past in this thread, it is about our future.

You put a lot of credence in your football knowledge and you get to many VFL games so I am interested in your opinion re my first questions concerning your preferences over Billings.

As I said I have no dog in this fight. I dont propose to know about young recruits, so the questions are genuine.

[The OtherThommo]

Silvagni is supposedly dead keen on Kelly as the GWS Pick 2.

Billings seems to have had a very good year 1st up @ TAC level, a great start to year 2, then got hurt and didn't play much. People seem concerned he didn't make his name as a midfielder. Didn't Steele Sidebottom play predominantly as a forward, then quickly become a mid at AFL level? Some TAC sides will play kids with elite ball winning and conversion abilities closer to goal to allow them to express their talent. Doesn't mean they're pigeon holed at the higher level.

From what I can glean (and I'm no expert at this stuff) Billings is rated well above Sidebottom as a footballer at the same stage, with greater potential upside, to boot (given Sidebottom's body was further advanced and Billings missed a lot of footy). As I understand it, Billings can get it in a variety of ways, and his use is top notch (including conversion against the %'s). He's also got tricks, the spatial thing and vision (so's Sidebottom), but seems quicker. Leftie, too, which is a Pelchen tick (right's good, too). Get's it in traffic, which suggests mid field capability

I reckon we'll take Billings and I'll be happy if we do. Big upside, I reckon - real X-factor talent. Local kid, too, which helps.

[BigMart]

Debates been done to death.... But again my thoughts, which we know are not hindsight

I honestly think Ross (a smart man) knew we were 1 ingredient away from a premiership and he would of pushed this to the recruiters.... Find me pace (Peake also) possibly due to the fact Lovett exposed us often due to our lack of pace.

Lovett was a well known risk.... His behaviour well documented. What he did and was like was morally poor... He was a person of poor character... Disliked to the point at Essendon where players didn't speak to him, disappointed about his continual breaches of conduct and wanted him gone..... Sheedy and Knights were fans of his offensive damage skill. Never worked to his potential consistently, never achieved consistent results. He hated work at training.

Cousins a different beast... A Captain, from all reports a great bloke with great humour but outstanding leadreship qualities especially wrt football. He was infectious... And even with Judd at the helm in 2006 he was the spiritual leader. He set a training standard no one could compete with... He was involved substance abbuse... Does that make him a person of poor character or a sufferingaddict, and does that mean he cannot rehabilitate.... Did his habit ever interfere with his output and football professionalism

One guy a flighty player who thought he was better than he was for 1M and a three year contact for Pick 16

One guy a bonfide champion who got a 400k two year contract for pick 90 odd

Be honest
If Cousins played in the 2009 GF
Would his experience, leadreship on field, composure, skill and ball use have made a difference....
Would he have unravelled the club under the leadership of Lyon, Riewoldt, Hayes?
And that's without the bizarre treatment of Ball

[BigMart]

Is Sidebottom a quality mid??

He's a back up mid isn't he? He was a good pick 11.... Do you rate Sidebottom a succesful top 3 selection

Like a Hodge, Judd, Delidio, Murphy, Cooney, Griffin....

Don't like the fact he didn't play a lot this year, don't like the fact he didn't test in the combine which may answer some questions about his ability to play as a midfielder....

He may end up elite.... Just not my preference... Question marks

[BigMart]

Kelly.... Elite endurance and a pure mid... A lot of developing ahead.... It's a running game now

Scharenburg.... Like BJ too good to pass up even though we have plenty of mid defender/mids he is fully developed. A Gun

Aish..... Super talent... Rate him and Kelly a nearly a tie with only one point of difference....SA

Billings.... Just don't know why he hasen't played where all the best 175-188cm juniors play... In the midfield.... What is his limitation? He has tricks and can play.... Is he worth a top 3 pick?
As I said I leave those for mids and key forwards

[The OtherThommo]

Is Sidebottom a quality mid??

He's a back up mid isn't he? He was a good pick 11.... Do you rate Sidebottom a succesful top 3 selection

Like a Hodge, Judd, Delidio, Murphy, Cooney, Griffin....

Don't like the fact he didn't play a lot this year, don't like the fact he didn't test in the combine which may answer some questions about his ability to play as a midfielder....

He may end up elite.... Just not my preference... Question marks

Good enough to play a decent sized role in finals, including GF's, early in his career. Was helped by having 2 or 3 guns ahead or him, but he was early in his career. Call him back up, if you like. Given the number of quality mids required these days, the point's almost moot.

I don't see the point of asking if I rate Sidebottom a "successful top 3 selection" - he was taken at 11, as you say. My point was about Sidebottom becoming a mid, quickly, following a TAC stint as a forward. Also, I suggested Billings was rated higher than him at the same stage, even considering he didn't play much, nor test at the camp - the experts at this stuff rate him top 5, which puts well in advance of Sidebottom in their minds. They know more than me, way more. But, Sidebottom worked, well enough to become a regular in a top 4 side, as a midfielder (who can still kick goals, which is what Billings has in his armoury).

I don't reckon a kid not playing much or testing at the camp will define whether he can play midfield, or not. I don't even know what the problem was. Even if I did, I reckon his physical capabilities will have been given a pretty thorough going over by people way more knowledgeable than me. I don't reckon recruiters will be in the dark.

[joffaboy]

Cousins a different beast... A Captain, from all reports a great bloke with great humour but outstanding leadreship qualities especially wrt football. He was infectious... And even with Judd at the helm in 2006 he was the spiritual leader. He set a training standard no one could compete with... He was involved substance abbuse... Does that make him a person of poor character or a sufferingaddict, and does that mean he cannot rehabilitate.... Did his habit ever interfere with his output and football professionalism

Cousins would have been at the Saints with Gardiner, the media would have had a field day, could well have distracted the whole campaign (we did after all go 19-0).

Cousins ripped his hamsting in game one. Same thing happened for the Saints we may well lose the firsat game against Sydney, media get winfd that Cousins and Gardiner are socialising, and we are in the media headlights and distracted and maybe go off the rails

One guy a flighty player who thought he was better than he was for 1M and a three year contact for Pick 16

One guy a bonfide champion who got a 400k two year contract for pick 90 odd

Not much of a choice, one awomen beater and accused rapist, the other consorts with career criminals, forced to leave his club and is an avowed Ice addict.

Be honest
If Cousins played in the 2009 GF
Would his experience, leadreship on field, composure, skill and ball use have made a difference....
Would he have unravelled the club under the leadership of Lyon, Riewoldt, Hayes?
And that's without the bizarre treatment of Ball

In my scenario we may not have even made the GF. After Cousins does his hamstring and gets back on the gear, the media hound him and Gardiner. Gardiner gets depressed and gets done for DUI, the club need to sack him, Saints in dissarray, start losing games, manage to just make the top four like the previous year, gets rolled by Bulldogs or Geelong in the PF.

Or a different scenario, we pick Judd instead of Ball, dont need Cousins and his drug, and we win 22 in a row and beat Geelong by four goals in a GF.

No scenario can be proven. Cousins may have wrecked the club. Judd may have helped us win our second flag. If my aunty had balls..........

[MCG-Unit]

I really hope they take Scharenberg 190/89 - if not, Billings 184/78 at DP 3

Even though they have not had much midfield time - from vision I've seen and reading draft profiles, I reckon both will readily transition into the midfield. Don't think you can be too tall for a mid, look at Josh Kennedy.

Bigger bodied types (esp Scharenberg) ready to go. Scharenberg for sure, and prob Billings are more inside types than Aish or Kelly IMO.
Don't really want any more outside players. Need to win the clearances.

I would use all three first round picks on inside mids.....

[Saint 58]

Agree
Has to be Scharenberg or Kelly ....... (or Boyd if still available!!)

[maverick]

I reckon we will pick Billings or Kelly, just depends on who GWS pick...
This year's slider I reckon will be Scharenberg...
Not sure on Aish, is he any more risky than other go home defectors?

[BigMart]

Armitage, Steven, Jones, Saunders, Curran, Hayes.... All very inside

Skills are lacking a bit in most of those

We need a polished performer through the middle to replace Dal.... Hard to Tag Kelly with his work rate which is elite...

I think we have 3 potential HF types in Murdoch, Markworth and Siposs.... With Minch, Saad and Curran likely small fwds

[Hurricane]

Like everyone else has said I think we will get either of Aish, Kelly or Billings.

My preference after watching the highlights would be Kelly hands down. But GWS are keen on him and will probably do what everyone expects and take Boyd and Kelly. Although considering the fact that they have lost a few midfielders who's to say they don't take Aish and Kelly giving them an elite midfield for years to come. That being the case we would obviously take Boyd but it's very very unlikely

BANG BANG

[maverick]

Savage is outside, good skills too.
Billings or Kelly would add good balance for mine.
Reckon Saunders as he gets bigger could go outside as well.
You can add Newnes and possibly Geary as inside mids as well, if they develop....

[Megamaguire]

Hailing from SA will not stop recruiters calling Aish if he's available i think.
Aish could equate to the Judd of the draft this year If Aish is a potential Rolls Royce then 'I don't have a problem with that'.
That prospect if it's accurate could well swing the recruiters into picking him @ #3.
Aish, Shazza and Billings may be all available come #3.
Our choice this year may well come down to the 2 from SA. Can't see the club ignoring both because of SA origins.

GO SAINTS!