Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

[BigMart]

Oh, and he's not responsible for on field performance? SW is clearly responsible for that...

He maybe responsible for a rubbish footy dept... Not results

[hayes66]

I have more confidence in elsgaugh to use the picks wisely than Peake. He's done well so far but this year will be critical.

The ONLY way he could do worse than Peake would be if he read MY name out for #3 on Draft Day. And NO, I'm NOT a Half Back Flanker !!

Elshaugh my be the best recruiter of all time. I don't know yet. And Peake may have been shyte but to be fair here are his picks that are still on an AFL list and were they were taken: Pick 9 McEvoy, Pick 42 Steven, Pick 13Lynch, Pick 47 Stanley, Rookies: Simpkin, Dawson. Rookie: Hutchings. Pick 25 Cripps, Pick 72 Siposs, rookie Curren.
Ledger may get picked up pick 50 something.
To me his two biggest mistakes were: pick 31Winmar and not taking Darling but I have a feeling that was not his call as Drain had left and Lyon was put in charge.
Shyte, matter of opinion but I think a few of those players can play and how many top twenty picks did he have over four years? Two. I don't know how well many on this board do their jobs or how well they perform in their yearly reviews. But I wonder how well they would go reviewing themselves ,as harshly and without taking in crucial criteria ie: where the picks where?, as they review Peake.

[bergholt]

Agree on most of the breakdown.... And yes he would manage and report to the board on all of those areas.... But he would or should not be dictating to them... He is not ultimately responsible? Otherwise that renders SW a half coach?

Nah, that's not how delegation works. The Board has ultimate responsibility for on-field performance. They delegate that to the CEO, who delegates it to the Head of Football, who delegates that to the Head Coach, who delegates that to his coaching team and eventually to the players on the field. But everyone in that chain has responsibility for performance, in the same way that the Board have ultimate responsibility for membership sales, but delegate it down through the organisation. Everyone plays their role and hopefully we get a good result. If we don't get a good result then we work out where the weak link was and fix it.

Watters got the senior job with a presentation
It would not have been that I will put into place Chris Pelchins plan and try to carry it out?

Even if the plan originates with Watters, he needs to sell it to his boss and then they can go forward united. I don't necessarily tell my guys what to do, but I get them to pitch to me and if they can convince me then they get 100% support of the organisation to make it happen. If Pelchen has any sense then he will have worked with Watters to come up with a plan that makes sense to both of them. If he thinks Watters' plan is unrealistic then he should move him on and get someone who can fit into the team better.

Question is, how much power has Pelchin got at StKilda? And why...

Who is in that position at Freo, Sydney, Hawthorn??

Chris Bond at Freo is the obvious one: "In 2009, Chris was appointed GM Football Operations and oversaw major changes in the playing list as well as overseeing a new direction in coaching and player development..."

Sounds very much like he's ultimately in charge of football, to me.

But anyway, different organisations can be structured in different ways and have success. Depends on the resources available and the way the club wants things done.

He should not be setting the PLAN and suggesting to the senior coach, this is how you make it happen?! He never did that with Clarkson or Chocolates and neither would cop it?

Like I said, he should be working with his Head Coach to come up with a plan acceptable to both of them, and then they can present a united front to the rest of the organisation. From the outside I have no idea if that's happening, but I don't understand this fixation on who comes up with the plan? That's completely separate to who has ultimate responsibility for carrying it out.

Not sure why those love to have a shot at me about wrt

Been in education for many years and people are of the assumption I am a teacher still...

You understand how a forum works, right? People don't know you but you've mentioned many times that you're a teacher. So is it surprising that's what people assume? I'm just going on what you say, which presents a pretty old-school view of top-down management.

Management and leadership are different in some respects, and although distributive leadership is very much invogue and it can be very effective ..... The Romans paved the way 3000 years ago IMO and the hallmarks of a great organisation are simply organisation, structure, communcation, resources and logistics.... Maybe it's my defense force background but IMO those with the most responsibility call the shots?

...and I guess this explains it. The ADF isn't exactly a model of excellent management practices, from what I hear. I thought most organisations had agreed nowadays that top-down, "command and control" is just far too inflexible for a modern environment? Running everything up the chain of command to the CEO means that decisions take days or weeks when they need to take minutes or hours, even assuming that the CEO can possibly have enough information about conditions on the ground to make a sensible decision.

I haven't heard the term "distributive leadership" but I assume you're talking about decentralised decision-making. Seems pretty straightforward in football - Watters can't say to the players "when you get the ball, ask me what you should do". He has to give them the broad direction and empower them to make the decisions they need to on the ground. Same applies to the rest of the organisation and indeed most organisations these days - good leadership is giving people a clear enough direction that they can make decisions themselves which are good for the organisation.

Obviously this isn't something you've had a lot of experience with, so maybe you should treat this as a learning experience. Have a think about if you could be a better boss by delegating more authority rather than forcing all decisions to go through you. And realise that there's a chance the Saints have the right structure even though it's different to what you would do in their shoes.

[Con Gorozidis]

BigMart i hope you didnt teach any courses in logic.

Your trading up and down argument is flawed to bilio.

Eg we got Jack Steven for pick 47.
Under your logic if we now traded him for pick 30 then we would have 'won'.

[BigMart]

No con

Didn't read all my post did you....

None of those players were established.....

If we traded Jack Steven for Pick 30 after two years it would be a break even IMO

47 + two years of development and the potential of being successful likely.... Actually, possibly it would take pick 20ish....

What I do try to teach is common sense...

If we traded Nathan Wright at the end of this year... I would think anything lower than pick 20 would be a loss... Or trading down

What I actually said was this
Because of those facts... Three years on a row we traded our best pick for lower picks in following drafts suggest
Poor drafting, or poor development, or poor trading.... My suggesting is a mixture of the first two

No other explanation is there....

[plugger66]

No con

Didn't read all my post did you....

None of those players were established.....

If we traded Jack Steven for Pick 30 after two years it would be a break even IMO

47 + two years of development and the potential of being successful likely.... Actually, possibly it would take pick 20ish....

What I do try to teach is common sense...

If we traded Nathan Wright at the end of this year... I would think anything lower than pick 20 would be a loss... Or trading down

What I actually said was this
Because of those facts... Three years on a row we traded our best pick for lower picks in following drafts suggest
Poor drafting, or poor development, or poor trading.... My suggesting is a mixture of the first two

No other explanation is there....

Ive read rot before but this is now leading.

[BigMart]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations

What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Again any organisation that gets the following right, will prosper

Communication, logistics. Team work, resources

I spent an afternoon with the ex CEO of Coles Myer recently to discuss management of supply chains and logistics.... And supply and demand

He knew a thing or two about leadership, team building and managing having reached a salary of 850K.....

He had plenty advice but it always got back to the fundamentals of running an organisation....
Top down management only does not work.... In huge organisations in particular.... But at the end of the day.... The one who runs the show, must be the one setting the agenda.... All teams need, a captain, a director.... A LEADER!!

[plugger66]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations

What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Again any organisation that gets the following right, will prosper

Communication, logistics. Team work, resources

I spent an afternoon with the ex CEO of Coles Myer recently to discuss management of supply chains and logistics.... And supply and demand

He knew a thing or two about leadership, team building and managing having reached a salary of 850K.....

He had plenty advice but it always got back to the fundamentals of running an organisation....
Top down management only does not work.... In huge organisations in particular.... But at the end of the day.... The one who runs the show, must be the one setting the agenda.... All teams need, a captain, a director.... A LEADER!!

What are you writing about? Have you had a nervous breakdown?

[dragit]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations

What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Again any organisation that gets the following right, will prosper

Communication, logistics. Team work, resources

I spent an afternoon with the ex CEO of Coles Myer recently to discuss management of supply chains and logistics.... And supply and demand

He knew a thing or two about leadership, team building and managing having reached a salary of 850K.....

He had plenty advice but it always got back to the fundamentals of running an organisation....
Top down management only does not work.... In huge organisations in particular.... But at the end of the day.... The one who runs the show, must be the one setting the agenda.... All teams need, a captain, a director.... A LEADER!!

What are you writing about? Have you had a nervous breakdown?

Needs more Lithium…

[Con Gorozidis]

Not sure what BM is on about.
Sounds like he is waiting for some autocratic leader/messiah to follow.
Mussolini was a charistmatic leader.

We just need a team effort with everyone from the president to the boot studder all working on the same mission.
The hawks dont have a messiah. the swans lost roos and carried on like nothing had happened.
Thats the kind of organisation i aspire to.
Only s*** organisations crave a messiah or a saviour.

[joffaboy]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations

What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Again any organisation that gets the following right, will prosper

Communication, logistics. Team work, resources

I spent an afternoon with the ex CEO of Coles Myer recently to discuss management of supply chains and logistics.... And supply and demand

He knew a thing or two about leadership, team building and managing having reached a salary of 850K.....

He had plenty advice but it always got back to the fundamentals of running an organisation....
Top down management only does not work.... In huge organisations in particular.... But at the end of the day.... The one who runs the show, must be the one setting the agenda.... All teams need, a captain, a director.... A LEADER!!

What are you writing about? Have you had a nervous breakdown?

Cut lunch commando - choco

[HitTheBoundary]

He had plenty advice but it always got back to the fundamentals of running an organisation....
Top down management only does not work.... In huge organisations in particular.... But at the end of the day.... The one who runs the show, must be the one setting the agenda.... All teams need, a captain, a director.... A LEADER!!

[dragit]

The final piece of Foiney's bombshell…

Mugabe to take over as head coach… strong leader.


"There will be no more f****** small forwards in a team I coach"

[joffaboy]

The final piece of Foiney's bombshell…

Mugabe to take over as head coach… strong leader.


"There will be no more f****** small forwards in a team I coach"

wow - legit?

[dragit]

The final piece of Foiney's bombshell…

Mugabe to take over as head coach… strong leader.


"There will be no more f****** small forwards in a team I coach"

wow - legit?

You heard it here first… I beat Jaxons this time at least… YES!

Bashar al-Assad was a very good contender too, he'll make a ripping head coach somewhere… just a matter of time.

[joffaboy]

The final piece of Foiney's bombshell…

Mugabe to take over as head coach… strong leader.


"There will be no more f****** small forwards in a team I coach"

wow - legit?

You heard it here first… I beat Jaxons this time at least… YES!

Bashar al-Assad was a very good contender too, he'll make a ripping head coach somewhere… just a matter of time.

LEADER

[SaintPav]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations
What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Now you’re getting all military and political on us.

US Military? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib

You have to be joking for god sake.

Give us a break agent provocateur.

Too frigging weird

No con

[joffaboy]

So the military is not an effective model of leadership structure..... Although this structure has survived 3000 years, won world wars, has had the most expensive training budget of any organisations
What do you suppose is the budget is of the us military?

Now you’re getting all military and political on us.

US Military? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib

You have to be joking for god sake.

Give us a break agent provocateur.

Too frigging weird

No con

= 16 trillion debt.

Oh BTW military also lost two world wars

[SaintPav]

When he said 'budget" I wanted to bring up all money printing, QE etc etc but wanted to keep it simple...

A bit of reality on US foreign experiments...



Not clever enough either to say, oh it was the politicians not the military,,that we could discuss.

[BigMart]

If there is a more effective model of leading a million or more troops..... Why is it not used... There's plenty at stake, no?

Why still follow the same model as people who ruled the known world.... Thousands of years ago...

And Joffa

Just responding to you, someone who seems to think I'm not entitled an opinion.... And have zero idea.... That's your opinion... But your counters are generally just personal

Read back through the thread, pay attention to your posts, and notice how often you digress and just make a personal comment?

And like you're old buddy before you

I won't be told what to think, by cronies with an agenda - emotive support - and refusal to allow any view that is contrary

[plugger66]

If there is a more effective model of leading a million or more troops..... Why is it not used... There's plenty at stake, no?

Why still follow the same model as people who ruled the known world.... Thousands of years ago...

And Joffa

Just responding to you, someone who seems to think I'm not entitled an opinion.... And have zero idea.... That's your opinion... But your counters are generally just personal

Read back through the thread, pay attention to your posts, and notice how often you digress and just make a personal comment?

And like you're old buddy before you

I won't be told what to think, by cronies with an agenda - emotive support - and refusal to allow any view that is contrary

Its about time you were told to think. I dont be your typical gutless self. mention names instead of saying your old buddy. I suppose you cant expect anymore from a person either to scared or arrogant to quote like everyone else does.

[joffaboy]

If there is a more effective model of leading a million or more troops..... Why is it not used... There's plenty at stake, no?

Why still follow the same model as people who ruled the known world.... Thousands of years ago...

And Joffa

Just responding to you, someone who seems to think I'm not entitled an opinion.... And have zero idea.... That's your opinion... But your counters are generally just personal

Read back through the thread, pay attention to your posts, and notice how often you digress and just make a personal comment?

And like you're old buddy before you

I won't be told what to think, by cronies with an agenda - emotive support - and refusal to allow any view that is contrary

You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

And I can tell from working in a membership organisation, you are out of your depth and completely clueless in this matter.

As far as telling you how to think, well its not my responsibility to educate you, however I wont let complete ignorance and falsehood be presented as fact.

So don't play victim because the a bunch of people on here who actually no what they are talking about pull you up.

So I have no problem with you and your deluded ignorance, in fact I have enjoyed reading it all day. Hugely entertaining and very very funny.

So BM I encourage you to think for yourself especially when you are completely ignorant of the topic.

Kudos

[Wayne42]

If there is a more effective model of leading a million or more troops..... Why is it not used... There's plenty at stake, no?

Why still follow the same model as people who ruled the known world.... Thousands of years ago...

And Joffa

Just responding to you, someone who seems to think I'm not entitled an opinion.... And have zero idea.... That's your opinion... But your counters are generally just personal

Read back through the thread, pay attention to your posts, and notice how often you digress and just make a personal comment?

And like you're old buddy before you

I won't be told what to think, by cronies with an agenda - emotive support - and refusal to allow any view that is contrary

You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

And I can tell from working in a membership organisation, you are out of your depth and completely clueless in this matter.

As far as telling you how to think, well its not my responsibility to educate you, however I wont let complete ignorance and falsehood be presented as fact.

So don't play victim because the a bunch of people on here who actually no what they are talking about pull you up.

So I have no problem with you and your deluded ignorance, in fact I have enjoyed reading it all day. Hugely entertaining and very very funny.

So BM I encourage you to think for yourself especially when you are completely ignorant of the topic.

Kudos

If we are going to nit pick what people post then may i point out it should be know in that context

[joffaboy]

ipad in the dark watching the victory v heart borefest.

saw it but couldn't be fagged editing it, after all the person I was responding to cant be bothered ever quoting

[SaintPav]

oh, for god sake. get a life.