Thanks for the laugh loser!!!

[st.byron]

A game plan that yields only 60 points consistently in Grand Finals, clearly means that taking every opportunity becomes much more critical than with a game plan that yields 80-100 points.

In a GF, opportunities are rarer, and conversion is statistically worse than in the regular season.

So I do blame the game plan.


Under Lyon, it's a fact that you don't give yourself as many scoring opportunities. In a Grand Final, it's fact that conversion is lower.

So you do the maths.

This is the guts of Lyon's losing GF habit I reckon. Interesting article by Rohan Connolly in today's Age where he talks exactly about what JM has posted above. The forward 50 entry conversion rate being much more critical when there are less entries.

Link here :

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/f ... 2umii.html


In it Connolly gives this stat :

"........but the Saints who went within a Matthew Scarlett toe-poke of a premiership are the only one of Lyon's teams in seven years as an AFL coach to rank higher than eighth for attack. In the four grand finals he's now coached, his teams have scored nine, 10, seven and eight goals. "

So he's made the GF three (four) times but his teams, apart from us in '09, have never ranked higher than 8th for points scored in a season. That's a telling stat.

[Johnny Member]

In 09, our Points For dropped towards the end of the years also.

As teams 'worked us out', we stopped scoring so heavily.


To lost that 09 Premiership was criminal really.

[dragit]

A game plan that yields only 60 points consistently in Grand Finals, clearly means that taking every opportunity becomes much more critical than with a game plan that yields 80-100 points.

In a GF, opportunities are rarer, and conversion is statistically worse than in the regular season.

So I do blame the game plan.


Under Lyon, it's a fact that you don't give yourself as many scoring opportunities. In a Grand Final, it's fact that conversion is lower.

So you do the maths.

This is the guts of Lyon's losing GF habit I reckon. Interesting article by Rohan Connolly in today's Age where he talks exactly about what JM has posted above. The forward 50 entry conversion rate being much more critical when there are less entries.

Link here :

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/f ... 2umii.html


In it Connolly gives this stat :

"........but the Saints who went within a Matthew Scarlett toe-poke of a premiership are the only one of Lyon's teams in seven years as an AFL coach to rank higher than eighth for attack. In the four grand finals he's now coached, his teams have scored nine, 10, seven and eight goals. "

So he's made the GF three (four) times but his teams, apart from us in '09, have never ranked higher than 8th for points scored in a season. That's a telling stat.

The maths on Saturday was that they had the same amount of inside 50's & freo had 6 more marks inside 50.

It doesn't matter if it's free flowing or a tight low scoring match, if you miss easy goals… you'll lose. Fremantle actually had more shots on goal if you consider the outs on the full.

It's not about maths, it's about skill… Hawthorn executed, they have more skilful players > they won.

In 2008 Geelong scored 34 times and lost by 26 points, you know why? Cause they missed easy goals.

[Scollop]

Same amount of inside 50's. Freo had more marks inside 50. Hawthorn have more skillful players.

2 facts and one opinion perhaps subconsciously made to help people perpetuate the legend of Ross Lyon

They were within a goal late in the match and the difference at 3 quarter time was 10 points.

Don't tell me that Hawks have more skillful players when Fyfe and Pav were among the main culprits. Fyfe and Pav missed gettable goals early BUT who ever won a GF (or a prelim) by being in front at 3 quarter time. Sheees that would mean we'd have at least 2 extra flags at St Kilda (and the Cats would've been palying versus the Dockers on Sat)

If Freo had 'taken their chances' and 'executed' they may have been in front at 3 quarter time but what happened in the last quarter. Was it bad kicking that cost Freo in the last quarter? No they were friggin outcoached and Lake won the Norm Smith.

[St DAC]

Thanks. The simpletons all agree with you. You could get a job on radio or on the special comments team with BT with that type of analysis.

Apparently not. You don't ...

Yet another keyboard hero ... if you disagree, fine, refute my argument. Play the ball, not the player ...

[St DAC]

In a GF, opportunities are rarer, and conversion is statistically worse than in the regular season.

So I do blame the game plan.


Under Lyon, it's a fact that you don't give yourself as many scoring opportunities. In a Grand Final, it's fact that conversion is lower.

So you do the maths.

I did. One more point in 2010 and we were premiers. It's irrefutable.

We had enough opportunities to win both 2009 & 2010 (GF1), and Freo had enough on Saturday. Yes, I agree they are more important if you don't get that many, but that wasn't the case in any of those 3 GFs.

[saintspremiers]

In a GF, opportunities are rarer, and conversion is statistically worse than in the regular season.

So I do blame the game plan.


Under Lyon, it's a fact that you don't give yourself as many scoring opportunities. In a Grand Final, it's fact that conversion is lower.

So you do the maths.

I did. One more point in 2010 and we were premiers. It's irrefutable.

We had enough opportunities to win both 2009 & 2010 (GF1), and Freo had enough on Saturday. Yes, I agree they are more important if you don't get that many, but that wasn't the case in any of those 3 GFs.

Under Lyon you work your arse off getting an inside 50 in a GF. Maybe players are spent and struggle to convert as a result

[St DAC]

Under Lyon you work your arse off getting an inside 50 in a GF. Maybe players are spent and struggle to convert as a result

As you do under any gameplan .. the modern game is all about covering the ground well. All teams have to run both ways to succeed.

We missed some shots in 2009 my grandmother could have kicked, and she wasn't even alive then.

[Scollop]

Under Lyon you work your arse off getting an inside 50 in a GF. Maybe players are spent and struggle to convert as a result

As you do under any gameplan .. the modern game is all about covering the ground well. All teams have to run both ways to succeed.

We missed some shots in 2009 my grandmother could have kicked, and she wasn't even alive then.

Get over it and stop trying to lay blame on one thing or one player. That poor kicking in the 2009 GF that Lyon devotees and messiah worshippers are harping on about happened in the first half. Grand Finals are not won at half time or 3 quarter time.

We were outplayed and outcoached and the team lost in 2009 because we couldn't kick 1 measly friggin goal in the last quarter. I wonder if the focus was on defense in that last quarter 2009 or on going for broke and trying to win it?

Why don't some of the journos do their job and ask the Freo players what was said in the 3/4 time huddle in this GF. The Ross Lyon game plan after 4 GF losses is now in the spotlight and the silent voices are starting to get louder and louder. The buck always stops with the head coach and he failed again to inspire his team to get over the line.

[matrix]

ironically we had a go about Ball being left on the bench for too long incident and now freo fans are questioning the subbing of clarke

[Scollop]

Clarke is a tall defender right? So would he have been anywhere near Lake? Maybe it's the gameplan and the fact that he relies on Mayne or Ballantyne and the only key tall in the forward line is Pav. Sound familiar?

[st.byron]

The maths on Saturday was that they had the same amount of inside 50's & freo had 6 more marks inside 50.

It doesn't matter if it's free flowing or a tight low scoring match, if you miss easy goals… you'll lose. Fremantle actually had more shots on goal if you consider the outs on the full.

It's not about maths, it's about skill… Hawthorn executed, they have more skilful players > they won.

That's interesting that the Inside 50's on Saturday were the same.
You're spot on about execution being critical.
Painfully reminds me of McQualter, Schneider and Milne.....

[dragit]

Clarke is a tall defender right? So would he have been anywhere near Lake? Maybe it's the gameplan and the fact that he relies on Mayne or Ballantyne and the only key tall in the forward line is Pav. Sound familiar?

[Scollop]

Clarke is a tall defender right? So would he have been anywhere near Lake? Maybe it's the gameplan and the fact that he relies on Mayne or Ballantyne and the only key tall in the forward line is Pav. Sound familiar?

Ok. Got me again. I got him mixed up with Johnson

[St DAC]

Get over it and stop trying to lay blame on one thing or one player. That poor kicking in the 2009 GF that Lyon devotees and messiah worshippers are harping on about happened in the first half. Grand Finals are not won at half time or 3 quarter time.

We were outplayed and outcoached and the team lost in 2009 because we couldn't kick 1 measly friggin goal in the last quarter. I wonder if the focus was on defense in that last quarter 2009 or on going for broke and trying to win it?

Actually, I'm neither of those. He ain't the messiah ... he's just a very naughty boy (sorry, couldn't help myself there)

But he can coach ... his teams tend to contend and the sum of their whole is usually greater thantheir parts, so he seems to be able to maximise what he has to work with. I do agree though that a team needs both great defense and great offense to be truly great. Hawthorn were better offensively than Freo, and ended up winning. Of couse, they were the deserved favourites, and the best team all year on balance, so Freo were up against it anyway.

Of couse GF's are not won or lost at half time. But I'd rather have a 6 goal lead at half time than a 2 goal lead. And IMO we should have had a 6 goal lead at least in 2009. We didn't purely down to poor execution of skills. That's players, not the coach. And we squandered scoring chances in Q4 as well (Schneider, Milne et all)

Anyway it seems we aren't going to agree. So it goes sometimes ...

(For what it is worth I don't think Lyon is the man for a rebuild, and IMO the jury is still out on Watters.)

[The Fireman]

I wish I was a loser like him

[Spinner]

Already the best coach in Fremantle's history and done something no one has or had the guts to in their dismal 19 years.

Should be paying all you muppets instead of Lyon. Those that can't appreciate are bitter and twisted.

Fremantle fans very happy with their coach. As is the board.


Where were the expert analysts down in Geelong 3 weeks ago, and against the reigning premiers last week. Do we quickly forget Freo finished third this year? Pretty good effort considering he has been their 5 mins.


What's our game plan again?

[Spinner]

In a GF, opportunities are rarer, and conversion is statistically worse than in the regular season.

So I do blame the game plan.


Under Lyon, it's a fact that you don't give yourself as many scoring opportunities. In a Grand Final, it's fact that conversion is lower.

So you do the maths.

I did. One more point in 2010 and we were premiers. It's irrefutable.

We had enough opportunities to win both 2009 & 2010 (GF1), and Freo had enough on Saturday. Yes, I agree they are more important if you don't get that many, but that wasn't the case in any of those 3 GFs.

Under Lyon you work your arse off getting an inside 50 in a GF. Maybe players are spent and struggle to convert as a result

Yeah cos other teams don't run, make multiple efforts or work.

They were also really tired in the first quarter, and the first last week after having two weeks off.

[Spinner]

Clarke is a tall defender right? So would he have been anywhere near Lake? Maybe it's the gameplan and the fact that he relies on Mayne or Ballantyne and the only key tall in the forward line is Pav. Sound familiar?

Ok. Got me again. I got him mixed up with Johnson

On Grand Final day they create a double spread of the all players from the two teams coupled with pictures, numbers, position and key stats.

My aunties use it to enter the sweeps we have on grand final day.

Get one out from Saturday if you're serious about having a discussion. Clearly don't watch any other teams during the year.

[plugger66]

Ok. Got me again. I got him mixed up with Johnson

On Grand Final day they create a double spread of the all players from the two teams coupled with pictures, numbers, position and key stats.

My aunties use it to enter the sweeps we have on grand final day.

Get one out from Saturday if you're serious about having a discussion. Clearly don't watch any other teams during the year.

H doesnt care about players. Its only RL he cares about. Very strange for an apparent Saints supporter.

[maverick]

Under Lyon you work your arse off getting an inside 50 in a GF. Maybe players are spent and struggle to convert as a result

As you do under any gameplan .. the modern game is all about covering the ground well. All teams have to run both ways to succeed.

We missed some shots in 2009 my grandmother could have kicked, and she wasn't even alive then.

Get over it and stop trying to lay blame on one thing or one player. That poor kicking in the 2009 GF that Lyon devotees and messiah worshippers are harping on about happened in the first half. Grand Finals are not won at half time or 3 quarter time.

That is not correct.
Heaps of misses in he third.
The point is, the game should have been wrapped up, the Cats would have taken more risks giving us more opportunities.....
We dominated and didn't kick straight, should definitely won....

[st.byron]

Get over it and stop trying to lay blame on one thing or one player. That poor kicking in the 2009 GF that Lyon devotees and messiah worshippers are harping on about happened in the first half. Grand Finals are not won at halft time or three quarter time.

Scollop, you're pretty easy with the generalisations and sometimes loose with facts.

I'm no Lyon devotee or messiah worshipper but if those three easy shots in the second quarter had been nailed then we go into half time with at least a four goal lead. Our dominance would have been reflected on the scoreboard. More pressure on them.
As it was we dominated and went in with a one goal lead and that only thanks to Milburn gifting Kosi a goal by abusing the umpire just before half time.

Yeah I know it's all history..........move on and all that, but since we're talking about it........

[SainterK]

doesnt care about players. Its only RL he cares about. Very strange for an apparent Saints supporter.

Spinners a self confessed groupie

[Scollop]

We missed some shots in 2009 my grandmother could have kicked, and she wasn't even alive then.

Get over it and stop trying to lay blame on one thing or one player. That poor kicking in the 2009 GF that Lyon devotees and messiah worshippers are harping on about happened in the first half. Grand Finals are not won at half time or 3 quarter time.

That is not correct.
Heaps of misses in he third.
The point is, the game should have been wrapped up, the Cats would have taken more risks giving us more opportunities.....
We dominated and didn't kick straight, should definitely won....

How many games have you seen? I don't recall the VFL or AFL giving the points to a team in front at 3/4 time. It's all theory and guess work to say that we 'should have had it wrapped up' or we would have won because things might have been more in our favour. Says who? The opposition will let you do that will they?

I don't buy what you bought and what was sold to you by Ross Lyon. Comentators and sports media who gobbled it all up back then are now analysing the gameplan and questioning a few aspects of the legend of Ross Lyon

I've seen plenty of finals where a team comes back from 4 goals down at half time or 3/4 time? It happened to us in the 2005 prelim against the Swans and in the famous Prelim final in 93 the Crows were up by 7 goals at half time and still ended up losing!!!!!