I love Ross Lyon

[spert]

Lyon was just another coach who failed to get premiership for St Kilda, that's all I remember him for.

[samoht]

Lyon was just another coach who failed to get premiership for St Kilda, that's all I remember him for.

He is going to do us all a favour now by winning one at another club.
We can win it vicariously through him.

[Kickit]

Lyon was just another coach who failed to get premiership for St Kilda, that's all I remember him for.

He is going to do us all a favour now by winning one at another club.
We can win it vicariously through him.

Yeah like I celebrate all the success we had with Hawthorn in the 80's wooo bloody hoo.

[Moods]

And how are we going now? Or is the analysis only confined to 2012? Soo on your logic SW would have won 21 H&A games and the flags in 09 and 2010 because he was a better coach. I men we were only a kick away in both GF's.

Damn - we got SW 2 years too late

[samoht]

And how are we going now? Or is the analysis only confined to 2012? Soo on your logic SW would have won 21 H&A games and the flags in 09 and 2010 because he was a better coach. I men we were only a kick away in both GF's.

Damn - we got SW 2 years too late

RL is an OK coach.

How many wins did RL achieve in 2011?
Why were we in a rapid decline under RL?

We are still declining, obviously - after all, how many A and B grade players do we have in the key 23-28 age bracket?

It was interesting to compare the two coaches given they had the same list one year apart ... SW still had Gram and Goddard back then in 2012, even if we had lost Dawson.

Take from it what you will, but I'm not going to be singing RL's praises when a first year coach matches him with a list that was in decline (and still is).

[dragit]

Take from it what you will

Clearly you are.

6 of our 12 wins in 2012 were against bottom 4 sides. We had a breeze of a draw.

2011 we finished 6th. After back to back GF losses the players were clearly shot, we won our second game in round 9 but still finished 6th with no Hayes.

Ross Lyon was chased by a number of clubs and would walk into a head coach role tomorrow if he left freo. He is universally known as one of the best coached in the comp, only a few sooking saints fans disagree.

If we sacked Watters he would likely never coach again.

I know it's hard for you to accept this reality, but your desperate clinging to a good percentage in 2012 is sad.

[Johnny Member]

None of the above matters.

He's lost 3 GFs - that's failure.

He's won the same amount as Watters.

[samoht]

I have to agree with johnny member.

RL has the strongest list in the AFL - so no excuses this time (4th time).

I'd like to know how RL would have done in 2012 without Dawson and with Gwilt and Fisher injured at various stages - i.e., without a strong or settled backline - as we were declining rapidly year on year anyway under his coaching and he was lucky he didn't have to deal with these problems, while SW, a first year coach did.
He didn't stick around - so we'll never know.

So it leaves me to conclude SW => RL

[Moods]

None of the above matters.

He's lost 3 GFs - that's failure.

He's won the same amount as Watters.

Well that's peculiar logic. So 17 coaches fail every year? Kenny Hinkley was a failure this year at Port?

All this crap that if you don't win the flag you're a failure is chest thumping macho rubbish. It's also so simplistic it's beyond belief. Yes, the ultimate aim is to win a flag - and yes I agree that sometimes as saints fans we celebrate the chase rather than the end result a little bit too often sometimes. However lumping every coach as the same because they didn't win a flag is very strange indeed - I bet Tim Watson enjoys that type of analysis though. He would love to be lumped in the same category of coach as RL I reckon.

[Johnny Member]

A coach is employed to win a flag. Eventually.

They will have expectations from their bosses, to achieve certain things over certain periods of time.

Lyon, when taking over the Saints, would have absolutely been expected to win a flag within 5 years. The club would have expected it, the players would have expected, the supporters expected it - he would have expected it.

He failed.

Hinkley would have had different expectations. He most probably met them.

Watters would have different expectations. He may or may not have met them.

Lyon at Fremantle, would absolutely be expected to win a flag with. I'd imagine within 3 years.

If he doesn't win it this year or next, he's a failure at two clubs.


Simple.

[dragit]

Success isn't black and white unless you are completely daft.

Most sports celebrate making finals, silver, bronze medals… AFL is particularly obsessive about 'premierships' as the only measure of success, but winning games is success, playing finals, top 4, prelims, playing grand finals, then the ultimate of winnings premierships.

If Watters get us into the top I will be stoked. Ross will probably win a flag if he is given enough time… most premiership coaches are lucky to win one every 10 years, Dean Bailey might have won one too if he was given the latitude that Malthouse is afforded…

[Legendary]

Ross is one of the best coaches in the AFL, and if he wins a premiership he will go top of the list IMO.

Brilliant tactical mind, excellent at getting buy-in from players, good communicator. Winning % over 7 seasons is evidence enough.

To put it in perspective: in 2013, Ross Lyon will most probably coach his 3rd grand final in 5 years at 2 different clubs.

[Johnny Member]

But unless it's a winning one - he could quite genuinely be labelled a choker who can't deliver the goods.

It's like a great jockey who runs second all the time. Sadly, it makes them not so great.

[plugger66]

I have to agree with johnny member.

RL has the strongest list in the AFL - so no excuses this time (4th time).

I'd like to know how RL would have done in 2012 without Dawson and with Gwilt and Fisher injured at various stages - i.e., without a strong or settled backline - as we were declining rapidly year on year anyway under his coaching and he was lucky he didn't have to deal with these problems, while SW, a first year coach did.
He didn't stick around - so we'll never know.

So it leaves me to conclude SW => RL

You still using that flawed logic? I would imagine many clubs will be chasing SW at the end of next year under your logic or is RL just lucky with the list all the time. Have to laugh at those who say Freo have the best list. My guess is no one thought that at the start of the year but hey RL left us so he is a failure if Froe dont win the flag this year even though they were probably 4th or 5th favourite at the start of the year.

[whiskers3614]

OK so tell me how many attempts a coach gets with a real good list before he is considered so-so for not having won even one?
Is it 5, 7 or maybe 10?
There must be some sort of cut off point when you are taking on ready made lists.
Could be a moot point if Freo win it this year but if not I would like somebody to give me a number.

[gringo]

I have to agree with johnny member.

RL has the strongest list in the AFL - so no excuses this time (4th time).

I'd like to know how RL would have done in 2012 without Dawson and with Gwilt and Fisher injured at various stages - i.e., without a strong or settled backline - as we were declining rapidly year on year anyway under his coaching and he was lucky he didn't have to deal with these problems, while SW, a first year coach did.
He didn't stick around - so we'll never know.

So it leaves me to conclude SW => RL

You still using that flawed logic? I would imagine many clubs will be chasing SW at the end of next year under your logic or is RL just lucky with the list all the time. Have to laugh at those who say Freo have the best list. My guess is no one thought that at the start of the year but hey RL left us so he is a failure if Froe dont win the flag this year even though they were probably 4th or 5th favourite at the start of the year.

I'd say the truth is in the middle. He has taken over two very good lists and now is in the box seat with a very deep list but possibly less top end talent. He will hit a very lame Sydney in Wa and should make a GF. I would say they will more than likely hit the Hawks who will not want to miss out or will be seen as the ultimate chokers. Interesting year from two very good tactical coaches probably playing off in the big one. Freo have probably lucked the timing a little better because we played our best team in 09 and hit the Cats juggernaut at full power.

i think Ross might just snag this one- hawks have baggage and the loss of a couple of defensive players for the year leaves them more vulnerable. As long as they get their stars through the prelim he might just make the argument pointless.

[plugger66]

OK so tell me how many attempts a coach gets with a real good list before he is considered so-so for not having won even one?
Is it 5, 7 or maybe 10?
There must be some sort of cut off point when you are taking on ready made lists.
Could be a moot point if Freo win it this year but if not I would like somebody to give me a number.

I dont know those answers but I do know people who understand footy more than us rate him him clearly in the top 3 coaches and have for at least 4 years and i also know a club chased him hard and sacked their coach to get him. Those are facts.

[saintsRrising]

Lyon was just another coach who failed to get premiership for St Kilda, that's all I remember him for.

Do you apply the same logic to players?

[gringo]

OK so tell me how many attempts a coach gets with a real good list before he is considered so-so for not having won even one?
Is it 5, 7 or maybe 10?
There must be some sort of cut off point when you are taking on ready made lists.
Could be a moot point if Freo win it this year but if not I would like somebody to give me a number.

I dont know those answers but I do know people who understand footy more than us rate him him clearly in the top 3 coaches and have for at least 4 years and i also know a club chased him hard and sacked their coach to get him. Those are facts.

That's a bit like saying your ex wife must have been a great wife because she ran off with another man. I'm not sure getting pinched is proof of better coaching ability. It means they rated him highly.

[whiskers3614]

OK so tell me how many attempts a coach gets with a real good list before he is considered so-so for not having won even one?
Is it 5, 7 or maybe 10?
There must be some sort of cut off point when you are taking on ready made lists.
Could be a moot point if Freo win it this year but if not I would like somebody to give me a number.

I dont know those answers but I do know people who understand footy more than us rate him him clearly in the top 3 coaches and have for at least 4 years and i also know a club chased him hard and sacked their coach to get him. Those are facts.

Eade and Wallace were also highly rated and sought after.
People on here want to rank small forwards on total/game average goals kicked.
I just want to rate coaches on finals/GF's contested without a win.

[plugger66]

OK so tell me how many attempts a coach gets with a real good list before he is considered so-so for not having won even one?
Is it 5, 7 or maybe 10?
There must be some sort of cut off point when you are taking on ready made lists.
Could be a moot point if Freo win it this year but if not I would like somebody to give me a number.

I dont know those answers but I do know people who understand footy more than us rate him him clearly in the top 3 coaches and have for at least 4 years and i also know a club chased him hard and sacked their coach to get him. Those are facts.

That's a bit like saying your ex wife must have been a great wife because she ran off with another man. I'm not sure getting pinched is proof of better coaching ability. It means they rated him highly.

Can you give us a list of bad coaches chased by another club?

[gringo]

Can you give us a list of bad coaches chased by another club?

How many get poached when their team is in a down cycle? Winning coaches get poached, losers are sacked. Dennis Pagan experienced both. Ross jumped ship at exactly the right time. If he had us in the bottom half of the ladder he would have had a dramatic drop in his stocks.

[plugger66]

Can you give us a list of bad coaches chased by another club?

How many get poached when their team is in a down cycle? Winning coaches get poached, losers are sacked. Dennis Pagan experienced both. Ross jumped ship at exactly the right time. If he had us in the bottom half of the ladder he would have had a dramatic drop in his stocks.

So only good coaches get poached then. Thanks for that.

[gringo]

Can you give us a list of bad coaches chased by another club?

How many get poached when their team is in a down cycle? Winning coaches get poached, losers are sacked. Dennis Pagan experienced both. Ross jumped ship at exactly the right time. If he had us in the bottom half of the ladder he would have had a dramatic drop in his stocks.

So only good coaches get poached then. Thanks for that.

Well is Pagan a good coach? he got sacked as well. Successful teams attract suitors s*** ones are stigmatised. Same goes for coaches. A coach is still good when the team drops down the ladder only perceptions change.

[plugger66]

How many get poached when their team is in a down cycle? Winning coaches get poached, losers are sacked. Dennis Pagan experienced both. Ross jumped ship at exactly the right time. If he had us in the bottom half of the ladder he would have had a dramatic drop in his stocks.

So only good coaches get poached then. Thanks for that.

Well is Pagan a good coach? he got sacked as well. Successful teams attract suitors s*** ones are stigmatised. Same goes for coaches. A coach is still good when the team drops down the ladder only perceptions change.

He was a great coach but when was he poached from another club? And i have no idea what your point is anyway. people rate RL in the top 3 coaches. Im yet to find a footy person in the media who dioesnt rate him that highly.