Finey on SEN

[howlinwolf]

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to air his negative thoughts about his own club without any real evidence is poor form. I hate to think it's purely to be controversial and make ratings.
I used to enjoy his program but lately he he goes left field just to make a headline like Hinch himself.

His take on the Essendon saga was embarrassing. His support of Whately's grand statement really lost me.
Now this..

To be honest I'm sick to death of us being in the headlines for the wrong reasons. If Watters causes friction from within because he doesn't want Dusty then so be it.
If we ever want to rise up and be a power club with great sponsors and flags then it is time to draw a line in the sand.
I don't take what Watters said about mediocrity as a sledge on the Lyon era. I see he means we didn't achieve what we set out to and we need to raise the bar higher. Not accept that as the bar.
That's not denigrating those achievements.

This rant by Finey should have been something he kept to himself or talk with mates over the bar. Not in a public forum.

[gringo]

Mark Fine is the most anti-St Kilda supporter I have ever had the misfortune to listen to. If he has the opportunity to stick the boots in to St Kilda, he does. His summary of our games and the team (even in our Grand Final appearance years) were never complimentary and he more often than not has a swipe at the club at any given opportunity. He made a complete tool of himself over the Essendon saga and his comments about Patrick Smith and Caroline Wilson were deplorable. Out and out personal attacks that challenged not one piece of evidence or information presented in any of their articles or reports regarding the Essendon Saga (which they turned out to be pretty much correct about).

All I heard in that brief clip was an opinion that had not much factually to back it up. I can sit here and tell you that I have it on good authority that he is much loved (which I don't, but just because I say it does not make it true or not true - especially if I provide no evidence to back it up).

In regards to Martin, I actually do know for a fact (but won't be divulging the source so make of it what you want as I am not prepared to use names on a public forum to back this up) that he has been on a 24/7 watch on numerous occasions in the recent past to ensure he stays out of trouble and has been in incidents that have never came to light. Same with the Cousins debacle. He had 3 (yes 3) very serious 'slips' during his time at Richmond. A great move by Ross not to recruit him (which if I remember rightly had Finey and many other St Kilda supporters up in arms at the time - myself included). Sometimes you will get this anyway, you can't avoid it, but why in the heck would you go out and put yourself in the firing line deliberately when you are aware of potential issues? You cannot have a player at the club that has the potential to cause serious damage with off field issues. St Kilda supporters should realise this better than anyone after the Lovett debacle. Not every player or club is going to be offered the same level of protection as Franklin and Hawthorn were in Franklins younger 'wilder' days.

In regards to mediocrity, maybe we have accepted defeat far too easily in the past as a supporter base and a club in general. I would prefer to have a few players with their noses out of joint that to go another 60 years without a flag. If you don't like a strong hard line, don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you think for a second that any other coach would allow players to run their club and bend to their whims, you are delusional. There is more angst at Collingwood at the moment than there is at St Kilda. Maybe Finey should have a chat with Harves and get on his high horse about that. Heck, I just wish he would change teams and go support someone else!!

None of our players have been 'disrespected'. All of the retiring players from this year (which were no surprise) were given a magnificent send off. Their time was up, thank you for your service. Time to move on to the next chapter. That next chapter being youth with a blend of still well performing veterans and mature age players to lead the way.

I am a fan of Scott Watters so far (jury is still out though). I like his stance. I saw the same qualities in Ross and was (and still am) a fan of his. Perhaps Ross wanting to leave had more to do with the clubs attitude than purely a financial decision? Makes you wonder.

In summary, I want a tough hard line drawn. I don't want to hear about excuses or temper tantrums. I just want to win. End of story.

Pretty fair summary. I think the dwarf might have changed any likely recruiting of Dusty. They controversy would have really pissed off the coaching panel.

When you are down there is often a letting the hair down attitude and players get in an uncompetitive zone. Usually takes a change of coach to pull them out after a few years of it. Watters will be aware that if they wallow for too long his job goes. I hope he can slap them into line because he has some great qualities even if the players don't like it. I think he has inherited a little of the happy to see out our days on past glories attitude right now. Dal's late season form showed he was just coasting early.

[Teflon]

Good call on Dals late season form he certainly lifted for some reason..

[thejiggingsaint]

Hey Howlinwolf! Well said Mr Burnett! I particularly endorse your final line! EXCELLENT! I didn't hear the original broadcast (to be perfectly honest I don't listen to Mr. Fine) but thanks to the link (well done!) was able to take in what Mr. Fine had to say. In my humble opinion, the "rant/sermon/whatever" was pretty ordinary. His opinion; so what? As others have posted, there seemed little factual evidence provided for such a radical decision as dismissing the Senior coach. To the assertion that SW "showed no respect to Ross Lyon and his teams" I would humbly ask; what sort of "respect" did Ross Lyon show to us? just a thought Alan Richardson? well hell yeah! AFL clubs are trampling over themselves to recruit him as a senior coach, lets get him quick! You know, I HATE to say this, BUT to my way of thinking Mr. Fine represents a brand of thinking that would keep us back in the dark days. What did Mr. Watters say that was so wrong at the B&F? Maybe some truth is what we need at the St Kilda footy club? but some "supporters" cannot (As Jack Nicholson said) "Handle the truth"! Change is often painful, long term change can be VERY painful, but I for one am prepared to endure that pain if it gets rid of once and for all, the perception that its all somebody else's fault that we are seen as a mediocre club.
"The truth shall set you free" the first step in solving a problem is admitting that there is one.
Recruiting Dustin Martin is a move that borders on lunacy (IMHO) let Richmond deal with him. He was a good kid doing the "sign" after his goal, but I saw not a lot of character when the Carlscum revival began!
Mark Fine has far more importance given to him (a 9 page thread no less) than his utterances merit. If he's reading this, (and he probably is) I know you have a job to do finey, but for goodness sake get it right it's "last VESTIGES" not "last vestments" OKAY? I mean, you're the one paid to be articulate, not me!

[Moods]

I've read about a half of this thread. Haven't got time to read ALL of it. From what I can gather, Finey believes that Watters isn't respecting what the players (and previous coach) achieved 3- 4 years ago. Now I'm on record as being a big admirer of the previous coach, and I LOVE the players that gave me that era where we just fell short - BUT that was the past and we did fall short. I am 100% behind the coach and what he is trying to do. If Milney is unhappy about retirement - BIG DEAL, he played terrible this year. If Kos is unhappy - BIG DEAL, he played on one year too many, If Fisher is unhappy - BIG DEAL, don't hang around with tools. If Dal is unhappy - fair enough. He's given everything to the club and never put a foot wrong. He's the only one with a legitimate grievance - but that's footy sometimes.

As for recruiting Martin - anyone with half a brain would steer clear of that. And if the players don't like that, bad luck. In a sense Watters is right. Forget what happened 3-4 years ago. Yeah, we played some good footy but ultimately we didn't win the thing. We simply have to get better. Don't put the bloke in charge and then undermine him. The players can suck it up or retire.

[thejiggingsaint]

Fair comment Moods. I for one think that Mark Fine is (like most of the footy media) very cynical. he "wears his saints heart on his sleeve" Yeah? So? don't we ALL?! and makes these outbursts to get attention for his show. I'm afraid I'm not one of those who wants to listen to someone who is becoming the AFL equivalent of Neil Mitchell or Alan Jones.

[Darth Vader]

Some comments from a person who was very highly placed at the club until recently but is no longer there, but still has involvement with many of the players:
- playing group is very unhappy with Scott. Main gripe is that he has multiple game-plans, and tries to switch between them too often within a quarter, let alone a game. This annoys the older players and confuses the younger ones. Older players therefore concernced for development of younger group.
- Main factor in Scott's appointment was media skills. Club was getting feedback from members and sponsors that the Ross-era (ie the bubble) was too insular and shut key stakeholders out. Led to club wanting a more open coach.
- At time of appointment, Scott's view was that rebuild was not required and we could challenge for top-four again in short-term - ie underestimated extent of decline post 2010 and didn't address it initially.
Also made scathing comments about CEO, but not relevant here.

Main concern for me is the development of the younger players - we all know that, assuming it takes a long while to get good again, Scott won't be around as coach to get the benefit of that because clubs are too impatient. Therefore his prime responsibility in that time is to develop the kids - ie good habits (training, diet, behaviour etc) and learning what to do on field (positioning, structures, drills etc). I worry if this is not getting done properly because younger group being confused. The fact is, like any rookie coach, Scott is getting his on the job training at our expense. Hopefully he gets good quickly enough to help rather than hinder our young players.

[thejiggingsaint]

Interesting post Lord Vader, most interesting.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

A few weeks ago it was "sack Bill Davoren"...

This week it is "sack Scott Watters"...

Give him another month and he will be demanding someone else be sacked!

Mark Fine = FLOG

[joffaboy]

Dont want to enter into the pro v anti Mark Fine comments, I like Finey and his take on football, is usually fair.

What I woudl like to comment on is that it seems that many people who come to the Saints from outside the club form the opinion that the Saints accept mediocrity.

And all seem to fall to the "Sack the Coach" mantra at the Saints.

Stan Alves many time railed at the clubs workings - sacked.

Tim Watson - talked about how the Saints used to hark back to the 97 GF as some sort of success, three and four seasons later

Malcolme Blight - said we accepted mediocrity and was sacked a week later.

Now Watters - and lo and behold a call to sack him.

Seems like the STKFC and its supporters doesn't like the perception from many outside its bubble, that mediocrity is good enough.

Now all (apart from Stan, and yet to be convinced about Watters) deserved to be sacked, but the fact remains, they all came from other environments and can see the issues at the Saints with outside eyes.

Lets face it, one flag in 140 year. 26 wooden spons, and due to thsi a culture of individual player worship (because for most of the tiem the Saints have not much else).

From what I have heard Saints are still into Dustin Martin, and haven't heard Watters has stopped anything there.

So once again the mirror has been held up to the Saints by an "outsider" and some at the Saints dont like it? Seems to be a pattern.

[thejiggingsaint]

Sound comments JB!

[Joey]

Some comments from a person who was very highly placed at the club until recently but is no longer there, but still has involvement with many of the players:
- playing group is very unhappy with Scott. Main gripe is that he has multiple game-plans, and tries to switch between them too often within a quarter, let alone a game. This annoys the older players and confuses the younger ones. Older players therefore concernced for development of younger group.

The above comment is in line with comments I was told by someone who spent a game day in the coaches box, and they told me that it was a mess in there, a lot of confusion and no one seemed to know what was going on.

[saint75]

Some comments from a person who was very highly placed at the club until recently but is no longer there, but still has involvement with many of the players:
- playing group is very unhappy with Scott. Main gripe is that he has multiple game-plans, and tries to switch between them too often within a quarter, let alone a game. This annoys the older players and confuses the younger ones. Older players therefore concernced for development of younger group.

The above comment is in line with comments I was told by someone who spent a game day in the coaches box, and they told me that it was a mess in there, a lot of confusion and no one seemed to know what was going on.

Are you sure they didn't mistake our coaching box with Carlton or Richmond from the last 2 weeks.....LOL

[Bluthy]

that was a powerful post Joffa

Some comments from a person who was very highly placed at the club until recently but is no longer there

The above comment is in line with comments I was told by someone who spent a game day in the coaches box, and they told me that it was a mess in there, a lot of confusion and no one seemed to know what was going on.

That seems to be a pattern here from the rumblings of discontent - "no longer there" (or at risk of no longer being there). Does anyone really expect Scott to be a great coach after 2 extremely difficult years? Yes he is learning on the job as are the young players and even the board and admin. Do you remember how much of joke Geelong was under Mark Thompson when they tried to get a more defensive style happening and had players running back literally just watching the ball carrier. It was mess of a game plan. You need the chaos to give birth to a new order. I would be more worried if no one was whinging at the club - that would mean nothing is really changing.

[The OtherThommo]

Used to like Finey but then he became a gym-junkie, starting talking about his sex life on air, became more abrasive and short-tempered ... and lost me.

Mmmm....."gym-junkie"? "Abrasive and short tempered"....Mmmmm.

So many dots.

[markp]

Not a fan of SEN or Finey, or sold at all on the claims, but I think it's probably worth being open to exploring whether there is much behind them rather than simply dismissing them outright and shooting the messenger.

I'd hate to be ceding control to someone who sooner or later proves unsuitable and unworthy, but in the meantime has shipped many of our past famed and loyal servants off to the knackery, leaving a trail of good people with their noses out of joint, and years of valuable development wasted or under utilised.

No you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs, but just because you're breaking eggs doesn't mean you're necessarily making an omelette.

And there may very well be more to it than a few disgruntled older players/employees just looking out for themselves.

Who knows.

[matrix]

What if his points are valid

Ifor one don't subscribe to everything I hear on radio.... Nor do I dismiss it, because its not what I want to hear...

From what I've heard.... Things are very unstable at Seaford...

Big changes next year I reckon!

well what have you heard then
you do this quite often

tell the forum 'what you have heard' or you are no better than the bloke on the radio
if you have something spill it
ive heard pelch and watters dont see eye to eye on 100% of things
and bugger me who wouldve thought that two people would never agree on something 100%

so
back it up
what have you heard and elaborate on your comments that things are unstable at Seaford

[mullet]

Used to like Finey but then he became a gym-junkie, starting talking about his sex life on air, became more abrasive and short-tempered ... and lost me.

Mmmm....."gym-junkie"? "Abrasive and short tempered"....Mmmmm.

So many dots.

TOT was the first thing I thought of too.

[Con Gorozidis]

Great post and great memory jb.

I am so sick of people harking backs years ago like it was some golden era.
We lost in 2010 to the pies who history shows ain't that good.

Anyone dares disrespecting our great almost heros we sook and can't take it.

None wants to own up that Milne is on rape charges or that a 29 year old set a dwarf on fire or that a 31 year old is apparently led by a 22 year old delinquent from another club.

Nah ignore our own issues. Lets sack the coach for disrespecting us and our esteemed history and stay in our inner world of denial and delusion. Much easier I guess.

[SainterK]

In regards to a confusing gameplan, I'm torn on that one.

There has certainly been times this year I've scratched my head as to what is going on, question marks even in regards to roles and structures.

However all I've known as a fan the past 6 or so years, is a coaching style that was heavily based on preparation, and implementing roles and structures more often than not predetermined.

Perhaps that's not how it's done across the comp, perhaps other coaches focus more on game day rather than the leadup to it, and try to pay a game according to how it is panning out. More flexible, more adaptable to respond to the opposition?

Maybe it's just different rather than wrong?

[maverick]

Dont want to enter into the pro v anti Mark Fine comments, I like Finey and his take on football, is usually fair.

What I woudl like to comment on is that it seems that many people who come to the Saints from outside the club form the opinion that the Saints accept mediocrity.

And all seem to fall to the "Sack the Coach" mantra at the Saints.

Stan Alves many time railed at the clubs workings - sacked.

Tim Watson - talked about how the Saints used to hark back to the 97 GF as some sort of success, three and four seasons later

Malcolme Blight - said we accepted mediocrity and was sacked a week later.

Now Watters - and lo and behold a call to sack him.

Seems like the STKFC and its supporters doesn't like the perception from many outside its bubble, that mediocrity is good enough.

Now all (apart from Stan, and yet to be convinced about Watters) deserved to be sacked, but the fact remains, they all came from other environments and can see the issues at the Saints with outside eyes.

Lets face it, one flag in 140 year. 26 wooden spons, and due to thsi a culture of individual player worship (because for most of the tiem the Saints have not much else).

From what I have heard Saints are still into Dustin Martin, and haven't heard Watters has stopped anything there.

So once again the mirror has been held up to the Saints by an "outsider" and some at the Saints dont like it? Seems to be a pattern.

Most of what you say is good, but you lost me with the apart from Stan comment...

[The OtherThommo]

Used to like Finey but then he became a gym-junkie, starting talking about his sex life on air, became more abrasive and short-tempered ... and lost me.

Mmmm....."gym-junkie"? "Abrasive and short tempered"....Mmmmm.

So many dots.

TOT was the first thing I thought of too.

Mullett, me olde mate, I'm not a Fine listener and if the driver turns on his post game drivel after a game, I tell the driver to pull over so I can punch him....twice, just for emphasis.

But, I was sent a couple of links of this Fine imbecile's rants over the E'dope exposes. Let me just say such illogical, grovelling, sycophantic, ill informed boondoggling, on behalf of crass vested interests, disgraceful peddlers of influence and the fundamentally illiterate and thick, did not encourage me to return to his Fine show, or his radio outlet, any time soon.

Apart from that I'm happy to let the people in charge of our beloved footy club try and dig us out of our current predicament, and with a considerable leeway provided because they didn't dig the hole. Having said that, I understand the approach taken during the Lyon years - I commended it then, and I commend it now. But, it did have its consequences and The Pelican, Watters and the rest have a job to do and need time to do it.

The subject of this tread just ain't relevant. He has defined himself in recent times, let him live with it. Most of their output is driven by mere grasping desperation to survive.

[Kickit]

He said he should be replaced by Alan Richardson

Damn I thought we were heading in the right direction.
After some "I reckon Tim Watson/Malcom Blight/ bugger its all too hard can't you just do it Thommo " type decisions, they had a robust selection process to appoint Ross Lyon.
That seems to have worked OK.
They then used a robust selection process to appoint Scott Watters.
Apparently WRONG.
We should have asked some random Saints supporting radio jock.

But Richardson has a glowing track record.
Assistant at the Bulldogs when they were spooners, 3rd bottom and 9th.
Development Manager at Collingwood. Funny it was after he left that we saw really rapid development of young Collingwood players like Beams and Sidebottom.
Then he went to Essendon and Carlton.

Robert Walls claim that one of the things teams look for in a senior coach is a history at successful clubs.
Obviously Fine's opinion is different, did he give any reasons WHY Richardson would be a better coach.

[Cairnsman]

So are there any actual facts that would warrant such an over blown "sack the coach" rant...nup!

When is Finey's contract up for renewal? How are his rating going? I know he is paid to be some type of sporting Kyle Sandilands but surely we the supporters and consumers of social media are now becoming more savvy at understanding how the media industry works and how we can hold people such as Mark Fine to account.

Without facts it will be difficult to understand his true agenda other than he is employed to reach certain ratings.

And really...does anybody really think that sacking the coach is going to get us higher than 16th in 2014?

[SainterK]

I remember stories being written about Grant Thomas haunting Lyons reign early on, then the flack when he dropped dal and Milne for not buying in, and the media and us fans gave him a hard time for much of 07/08.

Not convinced Rossy was as loved initially by the players as when he left the club....

Then there was a total buy in led by Roo, Len, Dempster & others, and we know what happened.

Will Scott be ok?

Who knows, but it's early days.