Who the HELL????

[markinUSA]

Sainter K,

I didn't tarnish the Saints players. I didn't write the article. I shared it because people on here feel I was the only one saying it was a disability hate crime.
I'm not, but the level of hostility I experience, and the hate language towards little people here, is plenty of evidence that this is not a safe space for disabled people. So I didn't share the link where the story came from. Just cut and pasted it.
But of course I know it was Clint Jones who set him on fire. I have said he should go to jail for it, and I am sad I wasn't in Melbourne at the moment to organise a protest outside the Saints ground. But I didn't write the article.
If I had, it would have been a lot more practical. I would have been giving the Saints twitter address out, so that people had a practical way of venting their outrage to the club.

[plugger66]

Sainter K,

I didn't tarnish the Saints players. I didn't write the article. I shared it because people on here feel I was the only one saying it was a disability hate crime.
I'm not, but the level of hostility I experience, and the hate language towards little people here, is plenty of evidence that this is not a safe space for disabled people. So I didn't share the link where the story came from. Just cut and pasted it.
But of course I know it was Clint Jones who set him on fire. I have said he should go to jail for it, and I am sad I wasn't in Melbourne at the moment to organise a protest outside the Saints ground. But I didn't write the article.
If I had, it would have been a lot more practical. I would have been giving the Saints twitter address out, so that people had a practical way of venting their outrage to the club.

So you still think it is a disability hate crime even though it happened to nearly everyone at the event and only 2 people there were drawfs and only one had his clothes lit. And why would he go to jail for it even if they did find out it was criminal. Id say he wouldnt even get a conviction but may have to put $200 into the poor box. It certainly isnt worth even an hour in jail.

I respect your opinion to have a say but what you are saying doesnt make any sense at all.

[CURLY]

Sainter K,

I didn't tarnish the Saints players. I didn't write the article. I shared it because people on here feel I was the only one saying it was a disability hate crime.
I'm not, but the level of hostility I experience, and the hate language towards little people here, is plenty of evidence that this is not a safe space for disabled people. So I didn't share the link where the story came from. Just cut and pasted it.
But of course I know it was Clint Jones who set him on fire. I have said he should go to jail for it, and I am sad I wasn't in Melbourne at the moment to organise a protest outside the Saints ground. But I didn't write the article.
If I had, it would have been a lot more practical. I would have been giving the Saints twitter address out, so that people had a practical way of venting their outrage to the club.

There is only one person that should be in jail and that is you. The hate that you try and generate can cause so much harm you have no idea what harm the rubbish people like you cause.

[The Fireman]

Is "dwarf Tossing" a hate crime?

if it is then Crime "does" pay.

[markinUSA]

Fireman,

Yes it is a hate crime. Unfortunately, it is one that happens far too often.
Here's a link to another hate crime which was initially mis-labeled a 'prank'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... y-fan.html

And as you can see from the following story, yes, disability advocates did immediately recognize it as a hate crime.
http://www.candocango.com/dinklage-high ... en-globes/

[stinger]

Sainter K,

I have said he should go to jail for it, and I am sad I wasn't in Melbourne at the moment to organise a protest outside the Saints ground. But I didn't write the article.
If I had, it would have been a lot more practical. I would have been giving the Saints twitter address out, so that people had a practical way of venting their outrage to the club.

you are a lunatic....

[markinUSA]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

[CURLY]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

Please please stop this embarrising hate crime towards the club I support just get off.

[plugger66]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

Forget what these people say because they dont have all the facts. Can you tell us why it is a hate crime when it happened to many other people at the venue. Im sure everyone here thinks it was stupid but i reckon you are out on your own saying its a hate crime. it makes no sense at all IMO. If you could explain instead of giving us one eyed articles.

[terry smith rules]

The mob mentality is alive and well I see.

Disagree by all means, but the bullying in thread is ordinary and makes me feel uncomfortable

Agreed

I would like to ask some here

If it was a stupid and dangerous act, which most of you agree to. Then why make fun of the person who is upset by it. Is it because they are a dwarf, if yes then let me ask you this

Would you make fun of them if they were a
a) stripper
b) a singer (bought in for entertainment)
c) a member of the public who just happened to be there
d) your wife or girlfriend

If you answer yes to some and no to others, why?
Think about it people, it's the same act done to a person who is in some way upset by it (no problem there)

So why make fun of the dwarf, and not the others.

Then god forbid anyone should speak out against your view, come down on them as well. Gerard whateley (a cross dresser) look out genius mind at work here.

There have been dicsussions on bullying on here before and look out it is often the same posters who come in with their immature thoughts.

[Con Gorozidis]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

But in this case all the evidence suggests the dwarf was specifically targeted because he was a dwarf.
Surely that is a difference in the hate crime definition?

I believe
1. It was an idiotic immature act that wasnt even funny as hijinks.
2. Blake is more vulnerable and therefore warrants extra care and sympathy
But 3. At the actual time of the incident , Blake wasn't deliberately targeted specifically because he was a dwarf. He was caught up in the crossfire of idiocy so to speak. Doesnt make it ok just means its almost certainly not a hate crime.

[The Fireman]

Mark... isn't it Dwarfs who willingly participated in Dwarf Tossing ? Some of these Dwarfs put themselves out there to be laughed at or even abused so to associate an isolated incident as a hate crime is ludicrous.
I think you may realise you have been a bit over the top and are desperately trying to save face.
My advice...admit it and we can all move on.

[Richter]

Blake gets hired as entertainment. Blake gets involved by Clint Jones in their pranks. Blake is not offended at the time. Blake is asked by other players present if he is ok. Blake says he is. Blake finishes his shift and leaves. (Two separate sources of published eyewitness reports by the way)

A few hours later Blake decides to involve the media, presumably because he can see an angle to make $$ and get free publicity for his emploeyers' business. Blake gives out faux offence and sells his story to ACA.

Some people on various internet fora get angry and offended on Blake's behalf.

----------------------

The conclusions I draw are that....

- Clint Jones was being a drunken prat
- Blake is two-faced, publicity hungry d**khead
- Quite a lot of people on internet fora are happy to judge without the full facts and are pretty gullible.

[Kickit]

CJ did not commit a hate crime.
In fact his mistake was "mucking around" with the hired entertainer in a manner similar to his teammates, a sign of acceptance if anything ( The opposite of prejudice ).
While his actions were obviously juvenile, the entertainer was no more likely to be seriously injured than any of the other victims of CJ's stupid pranking so once again no predudice.

Dwarf tossing is a pretty stupid idea, apparently solicited by Dwarves happy to cash in on their "disability". It must really annoy other dwarves who are then viewed as an object to be tossed by people with very small brains ( rugby players ). ( Mind you the guy who was injured was "cashing in on his disability" by working in a dwarf themed establishment).

I would consider that If my company had hired a dwarf as a qualified Accountant or marketing manager they would get nothing but respect if they did their job well.
Similarly If I hired myself out as "rent -a -derp" I would be stupid to expect too much respect.

I consider markinUSA has a lot more "hate" to go round than any of the StKilda players.
I'm not sure that ALL dwarves would want to be viewed as "disabled" by condescending dogooders.

[Sobraz]

All this rubbish about hate crime being regurgitated over and over is really diminishing the real problem of bigotry that certainly still exists in our society.. It's counter productive and weakens the debate..

Typically someone with an agenda is overreacting to an action that may be perceived as a hate crime, when taken completely out of context and with no other information other than 'able man lights disabled man on fire'... end of story...

Unfortunately it is not as simple as that, and the real crime is how one man's stupid action has had him unfairly labelled by some as something he is clearly not...

Personally, I am a little ashamed to say I now have less respect and empathy re. discrimination of little people if they, and/or their proponents, carry on in a manner as has occurred in this thread that completely destroys any credibility and support they certainly deserve...

[8856brother]

Blake gets hired as entertainment. Blake gets involved by Clint Jones in their pranks. Blake is not offended at the time. Blake is asked by other players present if he is ok. Blake says he is. Blake finishes his shift and leaves. (Two separate sources of published eyewitness reports by the way)

A few hours later Blake decides to involve the media, presumably because he can see an angle to make $$ and get free publicity for his emploeyers' business. Blake gives out faux offence and sells his story to ACA.

Some people on various internet fora get angry and offended on Blake's behalf.

----------------------

The conclusions I draw are that....

- Clint Jones was being a drunken prat
- Blake is two-faced, publicity hungry d**khead
- Quite a lot of people on internet fora are happy to judge without the full facts and are pretty gullible.

Good summary. Please send a copy to that knob jockey Gerard Whateley. Pity most don't see it for what it really is.

[markinUSA]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable, and the one who was brought there to be mocked, laughed at, and just to be a source of amusement because they are little: Blake Johnson, a disabled person. I think it is not co-incidental that the only non-Saints person who they set fire to was the one whose sole reason for being hired was to be the source of ridicule (which is a barely disguised form of contempt), Blake Johnston. He wasn't there because Saints players have any respect for disability rights, or disabled people. He was there because Montagna (and whoever else agreed that it would be a good idea) thought "Let's bring a dwarf in, it would be funny just to have him there and laugh at him".
Then the guy who is hired to be the butt of the joke gets victimized by Clint Jones. He is set afire... because Clint Jones thought it was amusing to do so... and that fits in totally with the broader attitude that little people exist (and are hired) only to amuse non-disabled people. In this case, privileged, athletic, wealthy males.
So... you see, the whole attitude from the get-go reeks of disability abuse... get a little person because we can laugh at them for being different... and when the alcohol kicked in, and him simply being there was no longer amusing, set him on fire, because that will amuse us more. Yes, that is disability-related. And if the reason for setting him on fire is IN PART OR IN WHOLE related to the fact that he is disabled, then that is what disability advocates call a disability hate crime.

I didn't say Clint Jones will be in jail. I didn't even say I think he would be charged. I said I would like to see him in jail. That's because the precedent it would set would be so significant, it might have a detterent effect on others who have similar thoughts or who might take similar actions. And I could easily make a connection between disability discrimination, disability abuse, disability hate crimes, and the words that harm which have been so commonly bandied about in this forum.

[The_Merchant]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

Hi Mark,
I would like to preface this comment by saying I in no way condone the actions of any of the players involved in the incident, the short statured people should never have been hired, no-one should have set fire to anyone particularly hired entertainers, and the aftermath should gave been handled much better.
However your reaction to the incident is mind boggling. To label this as a hate crime deserving of a jail sentence is ludicrous. Did you even read the article that you posted above?
"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line"

This comes as a bit of a footnote in an editorial questioning societies attitude towards short statured people in general. In my opinion the article focuses on why the "dwarfs" are working as entertainment in the first place, and why society makes it difficult for them to find regular work. This is not exactly an article calling for Jones head the way you seem to be. She doesn't say it should be considered a hate crime, just says that some people may see it as the equivalent of a hate crime. People like yourself may see it as a hate crime, doesn't mean you are right. Can you honestly say that you think that Jones behavior was born out of the hate of disabled people?

[CURLY]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable, and the one who was brought there to be mocked, laughed at, and just to be a source of amusement because they are little: Blake Johnson, a disabled person. I think it is not co-incidental that the only person who they set fire to was the one whose sole reason for being hired was to be the source of ridicule (which is a barely disguised form of contempt), Blake Johnston. He wasn't there because Saints players have any respect for disability rights, or disabled people. He was there because Montagna (and whoever else agreed that it would be a good idea) thought "Let's bring a dwarf in, it would be funny just to have him there and laugh at him".
Then the guy who is hired to be the butt of the joke gets victimized by Clint Jones. He is set afire... because Clint Jones thought it was amusing to do so... and that fits in totally with the broader attitude that little people exist (and are hired) only to amuse non-disabled people. In this case, privileged, athletic, wealthy males.
So... you see, the whole attitude from the get-go reeks of disability abuse... get a little person because we can laugh at them for being different... and when the alcohol kicked in, and him simply being there was no longer amusing, set him on fire, because that will amuse us more. Yes, that is disability-related. And if the reason for setting him on fire is IN PART OR IN WHOLE related to the fact that he is disabled, then that is what disability advocates call a disability hate crime.

I didn't say Clint Jones will be in jail. I didn't even say I think he would be charged. I said I would like to see him in jail. That's because the precedent it would set would be so significant, it might have a detterent effect on others who have similar thoughts or who might take similar actions. And I could easily make a connection between disability discrimination, disability abuse, disability hate crimes, and the words that harm which have been so commonly bandied about in this forum.

You seriously warped mind. People like you cause more problems than you solve.

[Kickit]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

In referring to Dwarves as little people are you therefore categorising them with other groups including Pygmy's ( who have by far the worst history of hate crimes ) and children ( who are in fact little people ) ? Maybe its just politically incorrect to refer to any living entity as other than "lifeform". Or maybe you have something stuck inside your anal cavity causing you to be like this.

[Johnny Member]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable,

How do you know that??

[maverick]

Why is this still going?
This is a football forum, can we move all non football discussion to the general forum if it is not locked.

Whilst I completely disagree with Mark's point of view, I respect his efforts and don't want to see any more of this argued out. Nothing will change either side's opinions, but surely this is not a place for its discussion.

[Kickit]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable, and the one who was brought there to be mocked, laughed at, and just to be a source of amusement because they are little: Blake Johnson, a disabled person. I think it is not co-incidental that the only non-Saints person who they set fire to was the one whose sole reason for being hired was to be the source of ridicule (which is a barely disguised form of contempt), Blake Johnston. He wasn't there because Saints players have any respect for disability rights, or disabled people. He was there because Montagna (and whoever else agreed that it would be a good idea) thought "Let's bring a dwarf in, it would be funny just to have him there and laugh at him".
Then the guy who is hired to be the butt of the joke gets victimized by Clint Jones. He is set afire... because Clint Jones thought it was amusing to do so... and that fits in totally with the broader attitude that little people exist (and are hired) only to amuse non-disabled people. In this case, privileged, athletic, wealthy males.
So... you see, the whole attitude from the get-go reeks of disability abuse... get a little person because we can laugh at them for being different... and when the alcohol kicked in, and him simply being there was no longer amusing, set him on fire, because that will amuse us more. Yes, that is disability-related. And if the reason for setting him on fire is IN PART OR IN WHOLE related to the fact that he is disabled, then that is what disability advocates call a disability hate crime.

I didn't say Clint Jones will be in jail. I didn't even say I think he would be charged. I said I would like to see him in jail. That's because the precedent it would set would be so significant, it might have a detterent effect on others who have similar thoughts or who might take similar actions. And I could easily make a connection between disability discrimination, disability abuse, disability hate crimes, and the words that harm which have been so commonly bandied about in this forum.

You don't even know that. For all you know the waiters in the pub could have been set alight but they were just happy to be partying with AFL footballers.
Its really sad when someone who doesn't know anything thinks they know everything.
Its particularly sad when you presume to know what someone else is thinking without them telling you.
Are you suggesting in your rant that Dwarves should not be hired out for entertainment? I may well agree with you ( its not my thing ) but I'm not sure that the guys who want to do that for a living would agree with you.
In fact I could say that you are committing a hate crime against dwarves who only want to work in the entertainment business.

[mullet]

According to the entertainer he wanted his clothes paid for.

CJ did this and paid money to a charity of the entertainers choice. The club fined CJ. ACA paid the entertainer for his story.

The entertainer has not asked for it to go any further. The entertainer has not mentioned that he was targeted because he was a dwarf.

He was asked at the time if he was alright and said yes.

Case closed, unless he wants to press charges. His decision, no one elses.

Seems like CJ is now part of a Hate campain.

Mark, email the club with all your accusations, but stop posting them here, I find them tasteless.

[markinUSA]

Hi Merchant
Thanks for your question.
I didn't say Clint Jones HATED disabled people.
Never.
What I said is that there is bias in the selection of the victim.
That is what "disability hate crime" laws are. Some people just call them "Disability bias crimes" meaning that there just has to be bias (non-random selection of victims) in order to qualify as a 'bias crime' or ''hate crime'.
'Bias crime' or 'hate crime'... these words mean the same.
So, by saying Blake was targetted because he was there solely to be the source of amusement, derision, scorn and ridicule, and that setting him afire was a part of that mindset, says that there is a connection between him being a little person and him being the victim of a crime.
I've never said Clint Jones hates disabled people. I use the term 'hate crime' because that is the disability movement's preferred language; I could have simply "bias crime" (and that might have appealed more to a nondisabled audience, but that was never the point).
This event is a clarion call for disability awareness in AFL. Disabled people deserve respect, not scorn, derision, violence and abuse. And clearly these privileged players need to be educated on that.
There is an epidemic of violence and abuse against disabled people; one way that disabled people's lives can be made safer is by education. Another is by seriously punishing those offenders who harm disabled people (such as by setting them on fire).