Bottomed Out?

[plugger66]

For me they have 5; Mitchell, Roughead, Franklin, Hodge and Rioli.

It doesn't need to be that hard.

I would have Lewis, Gibson, Lake, Burgoyne, Birchall all very close to A grade… high B's probably.

Smith, Breust & Gunston becoming very good players…

They bat very deep.

Rioli's 15 disposals and 1 goal per game doesn't make him A grade in my book, if he's a mid he doesn't get enough footy, if he's a forward he doesn't kick enough goals… He's exciting and tackles well though.

Who were our A's in 2009/10

I have 5: Roo, Lenny, Dal, Chips & BJ
I like your high B's scenario: Joey, Gram, Schneider, Milne and probably Gilbert and maybe Baker.

That's the line that needs developing for mine.
As you say, that's how you bat deep.

I reckon they don't get many injuries either.....

Havent Hawthorn had many this year and plenty of them were A and high B graders from your list. matter of fact a few finals sides have had injuries to important players this year.

[dragit]

Who were our A's in 2009/10

I have 5: Roo, Lenny, Dal, Chips & BJ
I like your high B's scenario: Joey, Gram, Schneider, Milne and probably Gilbert and maybe Baker.

That's the line that needs developing for mine.
As you say, that's how you bat deep.

I reckon they don't get many injuries either.....

I think Montagna is safely A grade… making the AA team is a pretty good indicator, making it twice should confirm it… which would also make Milne & Dempster close if not… though they weren't AA in 09/10

[maverick]

Who were our A's in 2009/10

I have 5: Roo, Lenny, Dal, Chips & BJ
I like your high B's scenario: Joey, Gram, Schneider, Milne and probably Gilbert and maybe Baker.

That's the line that needs developing for mine.
As you say, that's how you bat deep.

I reckon they don't get many injuries either.....

I think Montagna is safely A grade… making the AA team is a pretty good indicator, making it twice should confirm it… which would also make Milne & Dempster close if not… though they weren't AA in 09/10

Have never though Joey to be A grade, appreciate others will, just short for me.
Milne very close, Dempster had one great season, good others.

[maverick]

I would have Lewis, Gibson, Lake, Burgoyne, Birchall all very close to A grade… high B's probably.

Smith, Breust & Gunston becoming very good players…

They bat very deep.

Rioli's 15 disposals and 1 goal per game doesn't make him A grade in my book, if he's a mid he doesn't get enough footy, if he's a forward he doesn't kick enough goals… He's exciting and tackles well though.

Who were our A's in 2009/10

I have 5: Roo, Lenny, Dal, Chips & BJ
I like your high B's scenario: Joey, Gram, Schneider, Milne and probably Gilbert and maybe Baker.

That's the line that needs developing for mine.
As you say, that's how you bat deep.

I reckon they don't get many injuries either.....

Havent Hawthorn had many this year and plenty of them were A and high B graders from your list. matter of fact a few finals sides have had injuries to important players this year.

4 players have played every game
5 more have missed 1 game
4 more have missed 2 games
2 more missed 3 games

SO:
9 of 22 missed 1 game tops
13 of 22 missed 2 games tops
15 of 22 missed 3 games tops

Only Birchall and Rioli who have missed 8 games each have missed anything significant.

Pretty consistent for mine.

[plugger66]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

[The Fireman]

I don't think we have bottomed out yet.
Roo, Milne, Hayes, Blake to go, Dal's input waining, Sammy nearing the end. More pain....bottoming out start of 2015 season then improvement

[southernsaint]

Next year will probably be our lowest point in the bottoming out process but still think we wont get the spoon, thank god for melbourne

[maverick]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

[plugger66]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Simpkin couldnt get a game when he was fit. gwilt has been terrible most of the year. the only real players of importance out of our backline are Fisher and Gilbert. You used figures and ours were similar but of course ours are worse. What about Suckling not playing a game and Schoenmakers only playing 4. Very vital players to the hawthorn backline. Shiels has also missed 7 games.

[dragit]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Varcoe, Rivers, McIntosh, Chapman, Hawkins, Menzel, West, Corey… Johnson, Bartel,
plenty of games missed there

I guess the problem for us is that since we have cleaned out a lot of our depth players, the injuries hurt more than they do other sides.

[maverick]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Simpkin couldnt get a game when he was fit. gwilt has been terrible most of the year. the only real players of importance out of our backline are Fisher and Gilbert. You used figures and ours were similar but of course ours are worse. What about Suckling not playing a game and Schoenmakers only playing 4. Very vital players to the hawthorn backline. Shiels has also missed 7 games.

Serious?
Suckling I forgot, Shiels is not in their best 12, bottom 6
Schoenmakers missing helps them.

Simpkin has not been selected because of fitness from injury
Gwilt i don't reckon is right, again because of injury.

You than throw in Maister as well.

You said we similar availability, you didn't say standard...they are all 1st team players....

[plugger66]

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Simpkin couldnt get a game when he was fit. gwilt has been terrible most of the year. the only real players of importance out of our backline are Fisher and Gilbert. You used figures and ours were similar but of course ours are worse. What about Suckling not playing a game and Schoenmakers only playing 4. Very vital players to the hawthorn backline. Shiels has also missed 7 games.

Serious?
Suckling I forgot, Shiels is not in their best 12, bottom 6
Schoenmakers missing helps them.

Simpkin has not been selected because of fitness from injury
Gwilt i don't reckon is right, again because of injury.

You than throw in Maister as well.

You said we similar availability, you didn't say standard...they are all 1st team players....

Well Simpkin and Gwilt arent in our best 12 either. So we have had 4 out of our best 12 out for extended periods and they have had 3. Seems very similar to me. I dont think you can use injuries as an excuse for us because if you have an old list injuries are likely to come with it. its probably going to be the same next year.

[maverick]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Varcoe, Rivers, McIntosh, Chapman, Hawkins, Menzel, West, Corey… Johnson, Bartel,
plenty of games missed there

I guess the problem for us is that since we have cleaned out a lot of our depth players, the injuries hurt more than they do other sides.

Bartel has missed 1 game...through suspension
Hawkins has missed 2
Corey has missed 3


Varcoe, Menzel and Chapman are big injuries...Johnson has missed 6, probably mainly through suspension

Rivers and West are borderline in the team, McIntosh hasn't played a good game for 3 years

Not that bad.

Their very best don't miss much

[maverick]

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin


Simpkin couldnt get a game when he was fit. gwilt has been terrible most of the year. the only real players of importance out of our backline are Fisher and Gilbert. You used figures and ours were similar but of course ours are worse. What about Suckling not playing a game and Schoenmakers only playing 4. Very vital players to the hawthorn backline. Shiels has also missed 7 games.

Serious?
Suckling I forgot, Shiels is not in their best 12, bottom 6
Schoenmakers missing helps them.

Simpkin has not been selected because of fitness from injury
Gwilt i don't reckon is right, again because of injury.

You than throw in Maister as well.

You said we similar availability, you didn't say standard...they are all 1st team players....

Well Simpkin and Gwilt arent in our best 12 either. So we have had 4 out of our best 12 out for extended periods and they have had 3. Seems very similar to me. I dont think you can use injuries as an excuse for us because if you have an old list injuries are likely to come with it. its probably going to be the same next year.

Suckling's not in their best 12.
I never said Simpkin was best 12, structurally important though.
Gwilt is.

Why are you picking parts of the argument out to suit your cause.
They are a settled, consistent line up, pretty much have been since 2007.

[gringo]

Would you believe our figures are similar and people say we have had a bad run with injury.

No.
Gwilt's missed 7
Fisher's missed 11
Gilbert's missed 13
Simpkin's missed 15

and there's most of our defence...

and then we have

Lenny missed 8
Schneider missed 17

All of those players are comfortably best 18, and probably best 12 bar Simpkin

Varcoe, Rivers, McIntosh, Chapman, Hawkins, Menzel, West, Corey… Johnson, Bartel,
plenty of games missed there

I guess the problem for us is that since we have cleaned out a lot of our depth players, the injuries hurt more than they do other sides.

Hit the nail on the head there.

[Kickit]

For me they have 5; Mitchell, Roughead, Franklin, Hodge and Rioli.

It doesn't need to be that hard.

I would have Lewis, Gibson, Lake, Burgoyne, Birchall all very close to A grade… high B's probably.

Smith, Breust & Gunston becoming very good players…

They bat very deep.

Rioli's 15 disposals and 1 goal per game doesn't make him A grade in my book, if he's a mid he doesn't get enough footy, if he's a forward he doesn't kick enough goals… He's exciting and tackles well though.

Who were our A's in 2009/10

I have 5: Roo, Lenny, Dal, Chips & BJ
I like your high B's scenario: Joey, Gram, Schneider, Milne and probably Gilbert and maybe Baker.

That's the line that needs developing for mine.
As you say, that's how you bat deep.

I reckon they don't get many injuries either.....

Dal Santo, Montagna, and Milne had an amazing run with Injury throughout their careers. I'd have Joey either very close to A or Dal Santo very close to B, yeah silky smooth and all that ...BUT

[Zed]

I think a good example of how to do it and how quickly it can improve is the Bulldogs...

2011 they just missed the finals
2012 they won 5... but GWS and GC were still very raw.
2013 they've won 7 and clearly improved...

I see similarities to us, just we are a year later.

It's going to be tough for a few years, and SW has been pretty adamant on saying how many preseasons you need to be able to maintain pressure for an entire game (4-5).

I'm excited about the future of this club and our list.

Slight difference. well a reasonably big difference. 2 father son picks for a start and also I doubt there recruiting was as bad as ours for about 5 years which has left us with bugger all 24 to 28 year olds. And we havent had a pick below 10 for about 6 years which usually but not always means to dont get the A grade players. And we have bottom out yet because we still have about 7 over 30 year olds who are still nearly our best players.I expect us to take at least 3 years from now to be where the WB are now.

Unfortunately I think you will be proven right on this P66. If you look through our best players list for every game this year its dominated by 28+ year old players, with the only standout exception of Jack Steven. How well our 3rd year players perform next year (ie Ross, Webster, Newnes - and Markworth to a degree) together with Hickey & Lee, will be the barometer for how fast we will improve. Barring injury, we may be able to see the first green shoots of improvement in 2015 if these guys can play every game in 2014 and hopefully every week at least 2 of this group feature in the best players. If any of our 2nd year players (Murdoch, Saunders, Wright) can also start to get themselves into the best players then that would be a bonus.

I will say though, that it does feel like we are building a better foundation this time around - the guys who have come in over the last 2 years all have the makings of good solid footballers. We just have to get the next 3 drafts right if we want any hope of returning to the top 4 this decade. We will get a top 3 pick this year - and almost certainly next year - and just like 2001/2/3 we need to draft an equivalent of Reiwoldt, Ball & Goddard

[Con Gorozidis]

Next year will be really hard.
Hopefully Markworth and Siposs surprise us.

[70s sainter]

Next year will be really hard.
Hopefully Markworth and Siposs surprise us.

If markworth ends up a gun it won't surprise me. He seemed to have an X factor.
If sipposs does it will surprise me - but I ll be very happy about.

[bergholt]

We'll win a total of less than 10 games across 2014 and 2015, but by the start of 2016 we'll start to have kids moving into the crucial 50 to 150 game bracket.

The group we're waiting for is:

Stanley (39 games), Simpkin (26), Siposs (25), Milera (25), Newnes (24), Hickey (22), Ross (12), Webster (11), Saunders (10), Dunell (9), Lee (9), Wright (8), Murdoch (7), Curren (5), Minchington (2), Ferguson (1), Markworth (0), White (0), Pierce (0), draft picks 2013 (0), draft picks 2014 (-22)

It's only early 2015 that many of these guys start to hit 50 games, Stanley should already be there and Newnes will join him, maybe Siposs and Milera will be close also. By the end of 2015 a bunch of these guys will be between 30 and 50 games, and in 2016 anyone who's still on the list will be starting to graduate to become real footballers.

But that's almost three years away, so don't hold your breath.

[borderbarry]

If only all of our players were like big Carl. Starred from his first game, and as a 17 year old.

[evo]

If we finish around bottom of the ladder for three years we will have no sponsors or members left. We cannot afford to bottom out for long or we will become the Gold Coast/GWS Saints.

[Richter]

Would have to a lot wrong to finish below Melbourne

Melbourne have a air bit of young talent coming through...

Hogan, Viney, Toumpas - three potential stars of the comp. All teenagers.

[Griggsy]

Unless someone else emerges like Steven has I see only 3wins next year aswell, and hopefully that person is in the midfield.

What team will drop off next year? GWS will improve. Who knows about the Melbourne rabble. We could finish last. See a lot of rising teams at the moment and not so many declining.

[bergholt]

If we finish around bottom of the ladder for three years we will have no sponsors or members left. We cannot afford to bottom out for long or we will become the Gold Coast/GWS Saints.

Nah. The AFL needs 18 teams for the TV rights deal, so I can't imagine they'll be pushing for mergers any time soon. More likely would be the Tassie Saints or the Wellington Saints.

I don't think we'll have no members left but we'll probably fall to about 25k before long. Anyway, it is what it is - we are going to be s*** for the next few years so the management need to plan for that. Hence the NZ option, which I think is an excellent move from that point of view. We should sell a couple of games to Cairns as well and really bolster revenue.