List management conundrums...

[Kickit]

You develop your ruck and clearance work so the ball is going in the opposite direction and pressure is on the opposition midfield.

We will be flogged mercilessly next season if we got rid of our main ruckman.

We will be flogged mercilessly next year anyway.

McEvoy doesn't win hitouts, I can't remember him winning them in a match ever… so that doesn't help our clearance work much.

I hear what you're saying though, we have developed him for 5 or so years… here's hoping he still has heaps of improvement, unfortunately right now he has stagnated.

Trade only if it's a super deal.

I had a look at the last few from last year. ( didn't look at this year, where he's admittedly been pretty ordinary ).
He lost to Kreuzer vs Carlton.
Lost to Giles vs GWS.
Won against West vs Cats
Won against Spencer vs Melbourne

I assume there were others.

[borderbarry]

Ifwe were to offer up Ben for trade I would make a play for Jonathon Paton before Boyd. He is a St.kilda supporter, has had two years in the system, and because he is in rehab for a knee, his value would be down at the moment. Maybe Ben and 3 for Paton and 10.

[dragit]

I had a look at the last few from last year. ( didn't look at this year, where he's admittedly been pretty ordinary ).
He lost to Kreuzer vs Carlton.
Lost to Giles vs GWS.
Won against West vs Cats
Won against Spencer vs Melbourne

I assume there were others.

Point taken, bit of a stretch though…
Vs Geelong 29 hitouts to 26 west
Vs Melbourne 39 hitouts to spencer 28 & sellar 12 (pretty much no-names)

I hope Mac turns out great… I've just been very disappointed this year though… he is one of the guys we really needed to step up and improve.

Nowhere near captain material (yet) in my book.

[gringo]

Ifwe were to offer up Ben for trade I would make a play for Jonathon Paton before Boyd. He is a St.kilda supporter, has had two years in the system, and because he is in rehab for a knee, his value would be down at the moment. Maybe Ben and 3 for Paton and 10.

I would offer up our second rounder and a couple of players personally- maybe Mac and Fisher. He is going to be good but if they get Buddy they will need to do some quick off loading and the General will have lost a bit of currency because he has knee problems. You would hate to have given up a gun mid for a guy who has stuffed knees. Perhaps if you could guarantee Sheed or someone would slip to 10 you would do it.

Still prefer to wait and see on how Lee and White will go longer term and get a top 4 mid, Garlett and Rodda and go preseason for a mature KPB who we lure into it with big cash offers or a FA.

[Dis Believer]

McEvoy doesn't win hitouts, I can't remember him winning them in a match ever…

Ever ???? You should go to the occasional game if you think we've been consistently playing a ruckman who NEVER wins hit outs......

I hear what you're saying though, we have developed him for 5 or so years… here's hoping he still has heaps of improvement, unfortunately right now he has stagnated.

Remind us again how old Ben is? Then remind us again of what age a ruckman normally hits his straps? Then do the maths......

In the age of instant gratification, this line of thinking takes the cake for the most childish and uninformed drivel it has been my misfortune to stumble across.

Please also enlighten me as to the logic that dictates that sporting development must be a linear trajectory?

Almost as bad as our supporter's craving for a messiah is our compulsion to seek out a scapegoat.......

[mad saint guy]

Jones has to go. He gets thoroughly beaten by his opponent 4 weeks out of 5 and is getting in the way of Ross/Curren/Wright's development. I'd throw Ledger in there as well but it seems he's not considered a St Kilda listed player by the coaches.

I think we've made a huge mistake in investing so much in two ruckmen who can't play anywhere else. Hickey is better tap ruckman while McEvoy is a better mark and has better skills. Neither can play forward and neither work well as the number two ruck. Both have value, I think we need to pick one and trade the other. Stanley is the perfect second ruck, and we should take a big strong ruckman in the rookie draft as cheap insurance. I don't really see a trade happening this year, but maybe in a year or two when either Hickey or McEvoy have clearly moved ahead as the number one ruck and the other is wasting away in the ressies.

We also need to offload one of Gwilt or Gilbert. Gilbert might net us a pick in the late 20's, Gwilt mid-late 30's. We have far too many tallish flankers who can't play key position.

Changes I'd make to the list (not a prediction, contracts would need to be broken/paid out)

Delist:

Jones
Dennis-Lane
Milera
Saad
Lever
Ferguson (r)
Shenton (r)
Staley (r)

Retire:

Milne
Blake
Koschitzke

Trade:

Gwilt

Upgrade:

Curren
Minchington

That's 7 free spots on the senior list and 5 rookie spots. 4 National Draft picks and 3 trade/PSD/free agent picks. Leaves Hayes, Riewoldt, Montagna, Fisher, Dal Santo, Schneider and Dempster as the remaining veterans over 30 to guide the kids. No way could we have more 30yr old+ players in a rebuilding team.

[mad saint guy]

Ifwe were to offer up Ben for trade I would make a play for Jonathon Paton before Boyd. He is a St.kilda supporter, has had two years in the system, and because he is in rehab for a knee, his value would be down at the moment. Maybe Ben and 3 for Paton and 10.

That's really not a bad suggestion. GWS would get a ruck that perfectly fits their age profile and a chance to snare a 12 year defender/utility in Scharenberg. They lose a number one pick in Patton, but with Cameron dominating and Buddy potentially on the way it's hard to see how he'd fit in their side. We would still be able to pick a quality mid with 10, someone like Dunstan/Sheed/Taylor/Crouch/Kelly/Hartung will still be available.

I'd rather Patton and Sheed than McEvoy and Scharenberg, to be honest.

[dragit]

Ever ???? You should go to the occasional game if you think we've been consistently playing a ruckman who NEVER wins hit outs......

Roll your eyes as much as you like… but why don't you tell me all the games that Ben has comfortably won the hitouts this year?

Remind us again how old Ben is? Then remind us again of what age a ruckman normally hits his straps? Then do the maths......

Yes he is only 24 so hopefully still plenty of improvement…
Goldstein, Leuenberger, Jacobs, Giles, Lobbe… all around the same age, all averaging a lot more hitouts.
McEvoy is 28th for average hitouts… with around 15 guys ahead of him around the same age…
Yes he is better around the ground than most, but we are 17th for clearances this year…

In the age of instant gratification, this line of thinking takes the cake for the most childish and uninformed drivel it has been my misfortune to stumble across.

Are you trying to win "the most obnoxious and rudest SS poster" award?
If you could stop cupping your own farts for just a sec, you might notice that I haven't called him a dud, I haven't said to trade him at all costs…
If a really good deal came along it would be worth considering… He is struggling at the moment, has done all year, that's a fact.

Please also enlighten me as to the logic that dictates that sporting development must be a linear trajectory?

So you are happy that a 24 year old footballer is having less impact than he was 2 and a half years ago…
I would imagine most players would expect that their development is linear, improving each year.

Almost as bad as our supporter's craving for a messiah is our compulsion to seek out a scapegoat.......

I haven't blamed McEvoy for our current predicament… not once.
I'm not a hater… I like him, hope he improves out of site…
Unfortunately right now, he isn't improving and looks very slow…

So if we were offered the best key forward prospect in the country for McEvoy, I think it would be worth considering…

Hope that okay with you, all knowing one…

Now about all those hit out wins we've had this year? Hit me.

[Kickit]

Ever ???? You should go to the occasional game if you think we've been consistently playing a ruckman who NEVER wins hit outs......

Roll your eyes as much as you like… but why don't you tell me all the games that Ben has comfortably won the hitouts this year?

Remind us again how old Ben is? Then remind us again of what age a ruckman normally hits his straps? Then do the maths......

Yes he is only 24 so hopefully still plenty of improvement…
Goldstein, Leuenberger, Jacobs, Giles, Lobbe… all around the same age, all averaging a lot more hitouts.
McEvoy is 28th for average hitouts… with around 15 guys ahead of him around the same age…
Yes he is better around the ground than most, but we are 17th for clearances this year…

In the age of instant gratification, this line of thinking takes the cake for the most childish and uninformed drivel it has been my misfortune to stumble across.

Are you trying to win "the most obnoxious and rudest SS poster" award?
If you could stop cupping your own farts for just a sec, you might notice that I haven't called him a dud, I haven't said to trade him at all costs…
If a really good deal came along it would be worth considering… He is struggling at the moment, has done all year, that's a fact.

Please also enlighten me as to the logic that dictates that sporting development must be a linear trajectory?

So you are happy that a 24 year old footballer is having less impact than he was 2 and a half years ago…
I would imagine most players would expect that their development is linear, improving each year.

Almost as bad as our supporter's craving for a messiah is our compulsion to seek out a scapegoat.......

I haven't blamed McEvoy for our current predicament… not once.
I'm not a hater… I like him, hope he improves out of site…
Unfortunately right now, he isn't improving and looks very slow…

So if we were offered the best key forward prospect in the country for McEvoy, I think it would be worth considering…

Hope that okay with you, all knowing one…

Now about all those hit out wins we've had this year? Hit me.

People just don't seem to get how trade works.

Its not whether McEvoy is good or bad. Its what you can get for him, and how we can cope without him.
If we didn't have Hickey it wouldn't be a discussion.

[southernsaint]

I dont think we have to pull the trigger as quick as this year, ruckman will always attrack could trade value anyway. Next years draft is shaping up to have good key position players and clubs plan over a couple of drafts.....Hugh Goddard anyone? 195cm key forward and cousin to um....whats his name again?

[plugger66]

I dont think we have to pull the trigger as quick as this year, ruckman will always attrack could trade value anyway. Next years draft is shaping up to have good key position players and clubs plan over a couple of drafts.....Hugh Goddard anyone? 195cm key forward and cousin to um....whats his name again?

Hugh Grant?

[Saint wagga]

Would love to see mcevoy trialled as a key backman! The matches he's played well in, bar none are the ones in which he's taken lots of defensive marks. Yes he's probably not quick enough, but given it could be a novel idea. He certainly always looks much more comfortable in the defensive 50. I reckon I could count his attacking marks inside 50 on one hand this year. I'd try it for a quarter, see how he went on the big power forwards. Couldn't do any worse than Stanley's completely failed experiment! Hickey certainly looked a better tap ruckman and just more athletic when rucking predominantly as the main man. I'd be very reluctant to trade big boy, depth is important...and competition for spots is a good ingredient for good squads. In the games they've played together, thy just don't seem to be used well...weather that's poor coaching, I'm not sure. Would seem wired to winge all season (2012) about lack of ruck depth, then trade away ur most established ruck the very next season when he is only 24!!

[8856brother]

I dont think we have to pull the trigger as quick as this year, ruckman will always attrack could trade value anyway. Next years draft is shaping up to have good key position players and clubs plan over a couple of drafts.....Hugh Goddard anyone? 195cm key forward and cousin to um....whats his name again?

We might possibly have pick 1 next year. Not something to wish for, but a strong chance. Could live with it as long as some youngsters keep developing and we stay reasonably competitive.

[noob]

I dont think we have to pull the trigger as quick as this year, ruckman will always attrack could trade value anyway. Next years draft is shaping up to have good key position players and clubs plan over a couple of drafts.....Hugh Goddard anyone? 195cm key forward and cousin to um....whats his name again?

We might possibly have pick 1 next year. Not something to wish for, but a strong chance. Could live with it as long as some youngsters keep developing and we stay reasonably competitive.

And another wooden spoon.

[8856brother]

I dont think we have to pull the trigger as quick as this year, ruckman will always attrack could trade value anyway. Next years draft is shaping up to have good key position players and clubs plan over a couple of drafts.....Hugh Goddard anyone? 195cm key forward and cousin to um....whats his name again?

We might possibly have pick 1 next year. Not something to wish for, but a strong chance. Could live with it as long as some youngsters keep developing and we stay reasonably competitive.

And another wooden spoon.

That's one record we hold that will take some catching I suppose.

[SainterK]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

[ROLS-LEE]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

if so I hope they all play last round to say good bye and maybe a jumper hand over like years gone past.

[SinCitySainter]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

One of them could be Saad, two years out at his age could be the end of the line.

Kosi and Blake are pretty much certainties you would think. Milney seems very likely and I would have thought Lenny was 50/50.

[Con Gorozidis]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

One of them could be Saad, two years out at his age could be the end of the line.

Kosi and Blake are pretty much certainties you would think. Milney seems very likely and I would have thought Lenny was 50/50.

Sounds about right to me.
We know Chips plans one more year for sure.
If Saady can get away with just a one year ban - no point him retiring. And either way Pelchen wouldnt have factored that in yet.

Lenny doesnt strike me as a guy who wants to stick around and be a fringe player battling injuries/fitness week to week. He is way too cool for that.

So I reckon we can lock in Hayes, Milne Blake and Kosi as retiring.

[plugger66]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

One of them could be Saad, two years out at his age could be the end of the line.

Kosi and Blake are pretty much certainties you would think. Milney seems very likely and I would have thought Lenny was 50/50.

Sounds about right to me.
We know Chips plans one more year for sure.
If Saady can get away with just a one year ban - no point him retiring. And either way Pelchen wouldnt have factored that in yet.

Lenny doesnt strike me as a guy who wants to stick around and be a fringe player battling injuries/fitness week to week. He is way too cool for that.

So I reckon we can lock in Hayes, Milne Blake and Kosi as retiring.

How can it be a lock on Lenny. The club want him to play so there must still be a chance. And I dont think many would call lenny cool.

[maverick]

Sounds about right to me.
We know Chips plans one more year for sure.
If Saady can get away with just a one year ban - no point him retiring. And either way Pelchen wouldnt have factored that in yet.

Lenny doesnt strike me as a guy who wants to stick around and be a fringe player battling injuries/fitness week to week. He is way too cool for that.

So I reckon we can lock in Hayes, Milne Blake and Kosi as retiring.

How can it be a lock on Lenny. The club want him to play so there must still be a chance. And I dont think many would call lenny cool.

He's cool because he doesn't mean to be...the pure definition

[desertsaint]

Gee it'll be a different team to watch.
No more Milney. The most exciting player we've had since Nicky Winmar.
No more Lenny. Our heart and soul.
No more Blake. Our most loyal foot soldier.
No more Kosi. Our lost potential.

My favourite generation of players has been this bunch, alongside their mates maxy, ball, bj, and baker.
An era is at an end.

[evo]

Brett Anderson ‏@BrettAndersonIF
Chris Pelchen told St Kilda members last night that FOUR Saints will retire at the end of the year. Kosi, Blakey, Lenny, Milney? #afl

I believe he also said four more will be delisted/traded and two more will be traded, that's ten players that must be replaced. Surely not all dp's and rookie upgrades ?

[Kickit]

Sounds about right to me.
We know Chips plans one more year for sure.
If Saady can get away with just a one year ban - no point him retiring. And either way Pelchen wouldnt have factored that in yet.

Lenny doesnt strike me as a guy who wants to stick around and be a fringe player battling injuries/fitness week to week. He is way too cool for that.

So I reckon we can lock in Hayes, Milne Blake and Kosi as retiring.

How can it be a lock on Lenny. The club want him to play so there must still be a chance. And I dont think many would call lenny cool.[/quote]

They may want Lenny to play again, BECAUSE they expect someone else from the midfield to be traded.

If Saad is on the list is it likely it will be as a rookie? Even if he only cops 6 month he cant even train at the club until March.