We have some genuine leg speed

[SainterK]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

[St Ick]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

Fantastic work! Wow, just wow...

[Kickit]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

Redrafting an injured Allen after we found out he could never play again.
Drafting Luke Miles from the WAFL, then elevating him, giving him a debut where he was reasonably impressive, then delisting.
Delisting Attard because he dared to injure himself.

[plugger66]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

Redrafting an injured Allen after we found out he could never play again.
Drafting Luke Miles from the WAFL, then elevating him, giving him a debut where he was reasonably impressive, then delisting.
Delisting Attard because he dared to injure himself.

Allen had to be redrafted but dont let that get in the way of the story. Miles was just a draft pick like any other. Miles was not up to AFL standard like many others and was delisted like many others. Attard was delisted like many others because of injury but also not being good enough again like many others.

[Big Ben]

Can we all chip in and get Saunders a haircut.

[Sobraz]

Did he not also draft Doc Clarke in his first season?

[Kickit]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

Redrafting an injured Allen after we found out he could never play again.
Drafting Luke Miles from the WAFL, then elevating him, giving him a debut where he was reasonably impressive, then delisting.
Delisting Attard because he dared to injure himself.

Allen had to be redrafted but dont let that get in the way of the story. Miles was just a draft pick like any other. Miles was not up to AFL standard like many others and was delisted like many others. Attard was delisted like many others because of injury but also not being good enough again like many others.

Allen had to be redrafted because the list management was so poor we didn't have room in the cap to pay out a bottom rung player.
Miles was 21, so a mature ager. ( probably 23 or 24 before he got his game). If he was no good why did we waste a spot on the list after he was rookied for 2 years. ( unless Ross thought it was easier to elevate him and play him in the AFL than to go all the way to TBBO to see what he was like ).
Attard was good enough to play 20 games in 2007. I'd have played him in front of Raph.

[plugger66]

Redrafting an injured Allen after we found out he could never play again.
Drafting Luke Miles from the WAFL, then elevating him, giving him a debut where he was reasonably impressive, then delisting.
Delisting Attard because he dared to injure himself.

Allen had to be redrafted but dont let that get in the way of the story. Miles was just a draft pick like any other. Miles was not up to AFL standard like many others and was delisted like many others. Attard was delisted like many others because of injury but also not being good enough again like many others.

Allen had to be redrafted because the list management was so poor we didn't have room in the cap to pay out a bottom rung player.
Miles was 21, so a mature ager. ( probably 23 or 24 before he got his game). If he was no good why did we waste a spot on the list after he was rookied for 2 years. ( unless Ross thought it was easier to elevate him and play him in the AFL than to go all the way to TBBO to see what he was like ).
Attard was good enough to play 20 games in 2007. I'd have played him in front of Raph.

Dont agree with any of that but so be it. And i dont get the RL going to TBBO to see what he was like. he was certainly there everytime i was so Im suggesting he was there also when I wasnt. Id be blaming drafting before trading if you really want to see where our problems are now.

[Life Long Saint]

It's been awhile.

It's not recycled, it's kids were developing ourselves.

We all love watching Jack burn off opponents, I'm really enjoying watching Saunders do the same.

I think all night he ran hard, forward of the play giving an option. I hope we start to honour his leads inside 50 more often, I think he is going to be great for us.

Nice to have a few jets buzzing around.

It is pleasing but overrated.
Hawthorn don't have a lot of leg speed but they move the ball very quickly by foot. They are decisive and accurate. They have a few that can run and carry but their quick movement of the ball and accuracy by foot is why they're on top of the ladder.

[Fazer]

I was at the game, and I don't think we really use our leg speed to advantage. Many times we stopped and propped and kicked sideways when we clearly had the advantage to take the game on. I'm not sure whether this is a confidence thing or the inability of some of the younger guys to spread when we have the ball. It was especially frustrating when Hawthorn turned the ball over and we had the chance to move it foward before they set up their zones, instead we would hold onto it and wait for that chip kick to a free player. That's great when you're trying to keep possession or play tempo, but if you look at Geelong, or even Collingwood at the moment, they try and move the ball at speed whenever they have the chance so teams can't setup and drop numbers behind the ball. Just my 2 bobs worth...

[skeptic]

Trying to remember all the guys he traded in/took as mature age...

Gardiner, King, Dempster, Schneider, J Smith, Polo, Peake, Gamble, Pattison, Begley, Lovett, Dawson, Ray

Plus re-drafting the same players - Gehrig, Eddy, McQualter, Fisher and Howard.

Have I missed any?

Excellent post Sainter K, now lets put this into context (I LOVE THESE DISCUSSIONS)

I've included the draft as I figure the trades may have influenced the drating

2006
Michael Gardiner and pick #59, came to us for pick #43 (Shane Birss also came to us in that trade period but that was pre-Lyon's appointment).

We also drafted
Armitage at #9 ahead of Nathan Brown, James Frawley and Jack Riewoldt
Howard at #27 ahead of Chris Dawes, Ricky Pettard, Kurt Tippet, Todd Goldstein, Bachelor Houli

After Allan at #59 = Tyson Goldsack, Justin Westoff

We also took Ferguson again at 74 before Jesse White and David Rodan

We also got Matty Clarke in the PSD and let go Cain Ackland

The drafting speaks for itself in the context of this thread, we're not attributing that to RL

So we got Michael Gardiner and what amounted to Jarryd Allen by moving 16 spots down the order. We got a quality season out of MG in 09 but didn't do much more than that and Allan had big wraps on him pre-injury. Between pick #43 and #59 = Robbie Gray, Daniel Currie, Brad Dick, Lindsay Thomas, Simon Hogan and Daniel O'Connor... so some talent there. Can't say that it didn't work out for us but at the same time, a combination of Hogan, Currie and Gray would have been ok too.
WIN
The only potential negative I can see from this is that it may have stopped us from thinking to recruit another potential draftee ruck with Goldstein going at #37 so there could be a philosophical flaw with RL there suggesting that he may have believed in recruiting ready made rucks more than developing his own. I would consider McEvoy's emergence in 2011 after Gardiner went down as evidence of this as he really got more of a sustained shot post that but that's really more my own interpretation rather than a fact. IIRC, we also persevered with Matty Clarke throughout the season and didn't give Barry Brooks much of a go. Though contrary to that, we did get McEvoy in 07.


2007
Adam Schneider and Sean Dempster came to us in exchange for pick #26
Steven King and Charlie Gardiner came to us in exchange for pick #90

We took McEvoy at pick #9 (ahead of Dangerfield, Grimes. Rioli, Taylor, Scott Thompson
Jack Steven at #42 ahead of no one really
Redrafted Gehrig at 57 ahead of Craig Bird, Keplar Bradley
Eljay Connors at #70

Tom Bellchambers went in the PSD, with Shane Mumford, Jared Patrenko. We did redraft McQualter as a rookie at #39

Again the drafting speaks for itself... we can take comfort that Jack Steven at 42 we absolutely nailed with no better players going later than he with the exception of Mumford in the rookie draft but we had 4-5 more picks btw JS and him and still missed out

Between picks 26 and 42, the only players of significance drafted were Whitecross and Scott Thompson... whilst I don't rate Schneider nearly as highly as others, nor Dempster for that matter... we're still overwhelming winners in that one. The King and Gardiner trade was inconsequential

The tendency of getting shall we say players with AFL experience of questionable quality to fill specific defiencies is emerging at this current time. It's largely inconsequential at this point but one does wonder about how much deficiencies on our list influenced who we picked. Did we for example feel that McEvoy was the best pick 9 or was our ruck problem so bad that he moved up the ledger.
We certainly are not taking punts on bigger kids, rucks or KP forwards with later picks


2008
Farren Ray and pick #48 for pick #31

#13 Tom Lynch - ahead of Mitchell Brown, Luke Shuey, Trengrove, Zharakis, Beams, Hannebary, Steven Motlop, Rory Sloane
#47 Rhy Stanley
#48 Nick Heyne - both ahead of Taylor Hunt and a young Tom Lee
#62 Alistair Smith - ahead Leigh Brown
#74 Paul Cahill - ahead of Shane Savage
#83 Colm Begley

PSD = Jurrah, Cousins, Rockliff

Dawson drafted at #13 in rookie draft, Tom Simpkin too

You note a distinct change in drafting this season with really a rather large number of KPP both young and older taken. I believe this was the seaon our recruiter Peake was it, went on record saying they wanted KPP because they would become scarce once the franchise teams got the concessions... think he blew that one. Again I get the impression the teams drafted based on need rather than talent...

Look at the rookie draft... just about all crap with the exception of Gartlett who went beofre our first pick and Broughton who went in the middle... I think we actually won that one.

The Ben Cousins issue dominated this off-season obviously and the contentiousness of it remains. I still believe that RL very much wanted to draft him (a position I support) but was overruled.

Looking t the Farren Ray trade, the bulldogs took Jordan Roughead at that pick... meh however Steven Motlop and Rory Sloane would have been available to us pre our next pick. No guarantee we would have taken them but given what we've got from Farren who has been a GOP at best... not a great outcome IMO. He does sure up our run which is relevant given our drafting of KPPs but again makes me question our strategy.

2009
Andrew Lovett came to us in exchange for pick 16
Brett Peake came to us in exchange for pick #48

#32 Nick Winmar ahead of Max Gawn, Allan Christensen, Nathan Vardy, Dylan Roberton and Sam Reid
#60 Jesse Smith - not much after that
#64 Adam Pattison
#77 Will Johnson

The rookie draft had some quality players b4 our picks, we redrafted Leigh Fisher. Not much else worth mentioning

Xavier Clarke traded to Brisbane for pick #60
Luke Ball and Matt Maguire left

Lets see. It's pretty clear we didn't rate this draft and possibly with good reason. Very little on offer after pick 32. Jesse Smith was absolutely worth the low risk punt we had.
Brett Peake also clearly paid dividends with Roberton, Crichton and TDL the only thing approaching quality after
Pattison ultimately becomes an inconsequential pick as does Johnson

Looking at Lovett - I still think we paid way overs for him personally. Looking at pick 16 --- ended up at Port for Jasper Pittard. Hardly makes me cry at night hoever the players taken after = Nathan Fyfe at #20 and Koby Stevens at #23 pre pick #32... that's it. Whilst Fyfe is a huge miss I u/s the trade better now. Mostly garbage available after the first 15picks which with a few exceptions aren't great.

This period however seems better defined by what we let go


2010
No trades

I won't analyse further as the draft picks were just draft picks based on list needs/talent etc

So summerising...

Most individual trades worked out well in isolation. Schnieder and Demps + King and Gardiner only had upside
The Lovett trade was not as bad as I thought with only Fyfe being a reasonable player we could have used it on... Peake was actually a pretty good get too
The Gardiner trade was pretty good but ultimately didn't work out

Surprisingly, I actually think trading for Farren Ray was the big blunder of the time. Ray worked out don't get me wrong but geeez Steven Motlop or Rory Sloane would look pretty good with us in similar roles

What this highlights to me though is a very inconsistent attitude towards drafting which seems fairly influenced by how we traded though that's my opinion only. There definetly emerges a trend of looking to fill holes with trades rather than develop talent. We recruited 4 ready made ruckman in Clarke, Gardiner, King and Pattison for example and drafted 2 in McEvoy and Stanley... Brooks was cut w/o a go in his final season and McEvoy didn't play consistently until Gardiner went down.

We seemed to really want an outside talented player and brought in Lovett, Peake and Ray and didn't get anyone in the draft that could do it... missed a couple. Wonder how much X. Clarke's knee really hurt us in 09

All in all I'll say our trading was ok but our planinng was extremely poor

[Kickit]

The rot was already there.
Our drafting / trading after 2002 was pretty ordinary.
The fact that Fisher and Gwilt came good from late picks seems to be more good luck than good management.

Our Drafting looks like : 2000 -2002 big tick.
2003 -2005 more misses than hits.
2006 -2007 some good picks but some bizarre ones.
2008 some OK picks but we missed all the really good ones.
2009 -1010 almost a total write off.

Maybe it was more recruitment department than Coach related.

[Kickit]

Dont agree with any of that but so be it. And i dont get the RL going to TBBO to see what he was like. he was certainly there everytime i was so Im suggesting he was there also when I wasnt. Id be blaming drafting before trading if you really want to see where our problems are now.

I don't disagree with that. But drafting is a lottery, and even though it was only Rookie spots and late picks, you still have a chance of winning the lottery If you get a ticket.

[plugger66]

The rot was already there.
Our drafting / trading after 2002 was pretty ordinary.
The fact that Fisher and Gwilt came good from late picks seems to be more good luck than good management.

Our Drafting looks like : 2000 -2002 big tick.
2003 -2005 more misses than hits.
2006 -2007 some good picks but some bizarre ones.
2008 some OK picks but we missed all the really good ones.
2009 -1010 almost a total write off.

Maybe it was more recruitment department than Coach related.

You do realise that coincides with higher draft picks.

[Wayne42]

Agree re leg speed. Just need to get their disposal up to scratch now. All the guys mentioned are fast, but their kicking is a bit ordinary. A mixture of both would be fantastic. Enter our coaching staff.

Enter the Academy, hahaha, do they know where the door is

[gringo]

I still say we had no development program. Geelong got just as hampered by the low draft order but did much more in the development area. We wasted our high draft picks by offering the young guys like Cripps and Lynch no vision for their future with us. Armo was on his way out before Lyon too by the sounds of it. If you are just twiddling your thumbs for 4 years and have no contact with the senior team you might get sick of waiting.

[BigMart]

Don't let reality get in the way of excuses...

[bergholt]

Don't let reality get in the way of excuses...

?

[saintsRrising]

Well firstly thank you for for such a detailed post and analysis.

Surprisingly, I actually think trading for Farren Ray was the big blunder of the time. Ray worked out don't get me wrong but geeez Steven Motlop or Rory Sloane would look pretty good with us in similar roles

The big flaw in such a hypothesis though is our recruiters were so crap then that there is no way that we would have picked up Motlop or Sloane.

Given the under-performance of our then recruiters, I for one can understand why both GT in his later years, and RL were such heavy traders of of talent.

THE FUTURE:

It will be interest seeing what Pelchen does the next two trading periods. He has always traded, and so I do not think he will stop now.

However I think the GWS the last two trades provided a unique trading leverage opportunity that Pelchen could not resist taking advantage of.
That window of opportunity has now vanished.

[SaintPav]

Attard was good enough to play 20 games in 2007. I'd have played him in front of Raph.

err. no.

How did Raph go in the first two finals in 2009?

[BigMart]

Not that well, but was good in the 2008 finals

[SaintPav]

Saved our arse in the 09 prelim when we had no run or drive out of the backline. Had a good qualifying final as well from what I remember.

[skeptic]

Well firstly thank you for for such a detailed post and analysis.

Surprisingly, I actually think trading for Farren Ray was the big blunder of the time. Ray worked out don't get me wrong but geeez Steven Motlop or Rory Sloane would look pretty good with us in similar roles

The big flaw in such a hypothesis though is our recruiters were so crap then that there is no way that we would have picked up Motlop or Sloane.

Don't get me wrong SRS - that's purely a hindsight post. There is absolutely no indication that we would have taken either of those 2 players... My hypothesis is that those 2 players that are similar types to Ray went around a similar pick... that is all.
With no indication available for what we were interested in/looking at, any definitive conclusions cannot categorically be drawn. In hindsight of course they can but that doesn't mean they they didn't make the most reasonable decision at the time. In hindsight that was a fluff though

[saintsRrising]

Don't get me wrong SRS - that's purely a hindsight post. There is absolutely no indication that we would have taken either of those 2 players... My hypothesis is that those 2 players that are similar types to Ray went around a similar pick... that is all.
With no indication available for what we were interested in/looking at, any definitive conclusions cannot categorically be drawn. In hindsight of course they can but that doesn't mean they they didn't make the most reasonable decision at the time. In hindsight that was a fluff though

Yes all cool, as I know that you were being wistful. But getting more picks right more often is why we and the cats are poles part at present, and not Father sons.

On Rory Sloane...here's hoping that Saunders can continue to develop that way as there are quite a few similarities apart from the haircut!

Both can find the ball, and are vigorous in how they play.

I think our list now has some likely young players, but we just need a few more Jack Steven types (ie future stars). A bit more cream, and a FB and we will be a lot better.

Our first 2 picks are vital this year.
FB does not have to be a star, but like Zac capable of going ok on big full forwards.... If we can get a FB we have ample good flankers and our backline will suddenly look a lot more robust.

One aspect where Pelchen seems to have it wrong is gaining too many small forwards. Though may he thought that he had to gain several to find the one to replace Milne!
We need more mids in the team IMO. Both the Blues and the Saints suffer IMO from having small midfield groups with too many small forwards.

[plugger66]

Yet we resign Milera and we also have TDL and Minchington who in one game has shown just about more than those 2 this year. Is Saad and Milney stay i will just about explode.