Loyalty at breaking point - The Age

[Moolie]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/l ... 2r6cw.html

Interesting to read about the Football Supporters Federation in the UK.

[Junction Oval]

Missed it, but read it now. Interesting.

I think that Aussie apathy will come in here - nothing will happen. They leave the media to drive things. There are obviously more serious issues at hand in the UK.

The AFL seem to be conscious of keeping general attendance and Club memberships down (except Grand Final), so until they get out of control, I can't see much public support for a Supporters Federation.

Friends of mine (2 + 2 children) attended a US Basketball match in LA - $600 for the event !!

[dragit]

"Though still impressive by world standards, average crowds - at their lowest since 1996 - have dropped 17 per cent since 2008"

Seems odd this year when we have collingwood with nearly 80,000 haw/rich/wce/ess around 60,000 each & carlton with 50,000 members… two more teams than 2008, yet a drop in crowds.

What is the point in continually growing teams like collingwood & essendon any further with the same blockbuster fixtures, they are strong enough surely?

[The OtherThommo]

There as an article published last week about a big drop in MCG profit. The analysis was a bit murky, but AFL crowd size was deemed a significant contributor to the fall.

[Bernard Shakey]

"Though still impressive by world standards, average crowds - at their lowest since 1996 - have dropped 17 per cent since 2008"

Seems odd this year when we have collingwood with nearly 80,000 haw/rich/wce/ess around 60,000 each & carlton with 50,000 members… two more teams than 2008, yet a drop in crowds.

What is the point in continually growing teams like collingwood & essendon any further with the same blockbuster fixtures, they are strong enough surely?

The only reason the average has dropped is two new low drawing teams. Total attendances have not dropped, they've gone up.
Don't forget you can make stats say whatever you want them to.

[dragit]

"Though still impressive by world standards, average crowds - at their lowest since 1996 - have dropped 17 per cent since 2008"

Seems odd this year when we have collingwood with nearly 80,000 haw/rich/wce/ess around 60,000 each & carlton with 50,000 members… two more teams than 2008, yet a drop in crowds.

What is the point in continually growing teams like collingwood & essendon any further with the same blockbuster fixtures, they are strong enough surely?

The only reason the average has dropped is two new low drawing teams. Total attendances have not dropped, they've gone up.
Don't forget you can make stats say whatever you want them to.

That would make sense… having ess, rich, haw, coll, in the top 8 should bring numbers up, especially considering they are fixtured to play each other twice every year.

Still, makes no sense to me having 5 vic teams with a combined membership of over 310,000, while the other 5 teams share around 170,000 members… yet the fixture is still geared around making sure the big sides play each other twice… unsustainable, but I guess the AFL are hoping a couple drop off or move.

[plugger66]

"Though still impressive by world standards, average crowds - at their lowest since 1996 - have dropped 17 per cent since 2008"

Seems odd this year when we have collingwood with nearly 80,000 haw/rich/wce/ess around 60,000 each & carlton with 50,000 members… two more teams than 2008, yet a drop in crowds.

What is the point in continually growing teams like collingwood & essendon any further with the same blockbuster fixtures, they are strong enough surely?

The only reason the average has dropped is two new low drawing teams. Total attendances have not dropped, they've gone up.
Don't forget you can make stats say whatever you want them to.

That would make sense… having ess, rich, haw, coll, in the top 8 should bring numbers up, especially considering they are fixtured to play each other twice every year.

Still, makes no sense to me having 5 vic teams with a combined membership of over 310,000, while the other 5 teams share around 170,000 members… yet the fixture is still geared around making sure the big sides play each other twice… unsustainable, but I guess the AFL are hoping a couple drop off or move.

If they dont have the fixture like that a couple of teams will definately drop off. Tv rights would drop by a huge amount.

[matrix]

yup
all about a FIXture

not about random draws etc
not about spreading the wealth

nope
its a fixture to maximize profit for the afl heads
they can then just keep giving the struggling clubs a few bucks here and there to prob them up just to make sure they are still around and we have an 18 team comp, until the next rights deal is due to be made and they can then cut back on the teams that they have to give handouts to, because those teams wont be around anymore or will have merged

my faith in this 'league; has all but diminished
i watch every game we play, just because im a saints supporter but im slowly not caring about other games etc

i couldnt even tell you who won yesterday (apart from the showdown, ill always watch a showdown)
i know we lost,port won and the bombers got pumped, other than that mehhhh

my loyalty, to the game and who runs it is gawn
my loyalty to st kilda is for life

[plugger66]

yup
all about a FIXture

not about random draws etc
not about spreading the wealth

nope
its a fixture to maximize profit for the afl heads
they can then just keep giving the struggling clubs a few bucks here and there to prob them up just to make sure they are still around and we have an 18 team comp, until the next rights deal is due to be made and they can then cut back on the teams that they have to give handouts to, because those teams wont be around anymore or will have merged

my faith in this 'league; has all but diminished
i watch every game we play, just because im a saints supporter but im slowly not caring about other games etc

i couldnt even tell you who won yesterday (apart from the showdown, ill always watch a showdown)
i know we lost,port won and the bombers got pumped, other than that mehhhh

my loyalty, to the game and who runs it is gawn
my loyalty to st kilda is for life

If we didnt have the fixture like it is then some clubs including us could be gone. The TV rights are worth 250 million a year because of the fixture. make it random which still is in no way equal and it may be worth much less than that. I want my club to survive no matter how the fixture works out. We have the second lowest melbourne membership. We dont deserve any favours. We had a great fixture, tv wise when we were a good side. It will only get worse until we improve again.

[dragit]

If they dont have the fixture like that a couple of teams will definately drop off. Tv rights would drop by a huge amount.

I don't believe that sorry… I don't have the actual figures of course but the league is hardly hard up for cash.

The longer it goes, the worse it gets, poor clubs need prime-time exposure and reasonable stadium deals… handouts are like giving bandaids to a person whose lost an arm…

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

I guess this is why Andy has been over to the US, 'finding facts' on how to run a sustainable competition with genuine equalization.

[plugger66]

If they dont have the fixture like that a couple of teams will definately drop off. Tv rights would drop by a huge amount.

I don't believe that sorry… I don't have the actual figures of course but the league is hardly hard up for cash.

The longer it goes, the worse it gets, poor clubs need prime-time exposure and reasonable stadium deals… handouts are like giving bandaids to a person whose lost an arm…

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

I guess this is why Andy has been over to the US, 'finding facts' on how to run a sustainable competition with genuine equalization.

You are right they arent hard up for cash because of the TV rights deal. Why would channel 7 pay the same for a Saints WB game on a friday night as a Richmond pies game? They wouldnt.

[dragit]

Surely the aim of having 10 clubs with 50,000 members would be favourable over 5 with 70,000 and 5 with 30,000?

At least you would know that every game would have a good attendance, not 90,000 at one game and 20,000 at the next…

Who is more likely to attract new members and corporate sponsors… a team with 15 free to air games and 5 friday nights or a team that mostly plays sunday twillight on foxfooty? Essendon & North finished around the same spot on the ladder last year, one team was given amazing coverage, the other bansihed again.

At some stage you have to forgo some revenue for the integrity of the competition. Hopefully in the end you build 18 healthy, viable teams, not a handful that fight over crusts from the force-fed obese…

[plugger66]

Surely the aim of having 10 clubs with 50,000 members would be favourable over 5 with 70,000 and 5 with 30,000?

At least you would know that every game would have a good attendance, not 90,000 at one game and 20,000 at the next…

Who is more likely to attract new members and corporate sponsors… a team with 15 free to air games and 5 friday nights or a team that mostly plays sunday twillight on foxfooty? Essendon & North finished around the same spot on the ladder last year, one team was given amazing coverage, the other bansihed again.

At some stage you have to forgo some revenue for the integrity of the competition. Hopefully in the end you build 18 healthy, viable teams, not a handful that fight over crusts from the force-fed obese…

Of course it would be better to have it like that but some clubs just have more members. it isnt all about people following a club because they get on friday more often because if that was the case we would have more members than the Hawks because before the last couple of years we got many friday night games. WB also got a lot as well when they were a good club. The Hawks dont really get the blockbusters but they have 60k members.

If a random fixture would be an even fixture i would go for it but it still will not be even it will just be random. I would rather a fixture that will get more money into the AFL so we all survive. it wont be random but it will be uneven just like a random fixture.

We had the Friday nights and the FTA TV for about 6 years and lok where it got us. Some clubs are just small clubs no matter when they play.

[dragit]

You are right they arent hard up for cash because of the TV rights deal. Why would channel 7 pay the same for a Saints WB game on a friday night as a Richmond pies game? They wouldnt.

The idea is that you set-up a fair and equitable competition and fixture first, then you sell the tv rights to that for whatever they are worth.

You don't rig a whole competition because a tv network will pay more… or we could just play essendon v collingwood every second week, be great for tellie and crowds.

If the tv rights are only worth $900,000,000 with a genuine draw then so be it. The competition wouldn't implode, the poorer clubs would be better off with more exposure and less handouts.

[plugger66]

You are right they arent hard up for cash because of the TV rights deal. Why would channel 7 pay the same for a Saints WB game on a friday night as a Richmond pies game? They wouldnt.

The idea is that you set-up a fair and equitable competition and fixture first, then you sell the tv rights to that for whatever they are worth.

You don't rig a whole competition because a tv network will pay more… or we could just play essendon v collingwood every second week, be great for tellie and crowds.

If the tv rights are only worth $900,000,000 with a genuine draw then so be it. The competition wouldn't implode, the poorer clubs would be better off with more exposure and less handouts.

It would implode though. The VFL was going to implode before they made it national. Good players wont take pay cuts so the poor players will just not play AFL anymore when we lose clubs which would happen under a random draw which still isnt fair.

[dragit]

Some clubs are just small clubs no matter when they play.

That is true, but it is also exacerbated when north play melb, wbd, port, freo, saints twice every year, while ess play coll, carl, haw, rich, geel twice every year… particularly with the stadium deals we are stuck with, that we didn't even sign…

[dragit]

It would implode though.

I disagree but that is okay… if we can afford the hundreds of millions to launch 2 new teams that nobody wants, we can afford to even up the draw slightly.

[rodgerfox]

If we didnt have the fixture like it is then some clubs including us could be gone. The TV rights are worth 250 million a year because of the fixture. make it random which still is in no way equal and it may be worth much less than that. I want my club to survive no matter how the fixture works out. We have the second lowest melbourne membership. We dont deserve any favours. We had a great fixture, tv wise when we were a good side. It will only get worse until we improve again.

I don't agree with that sentiment at all.

[rodgerfox]

You are right they arent hard up for cash because of the TV rights deal. Why would channel 7 pay the same for a Saints WB game on a friday night as a Richmond pies game? They wouldnt.

The idea is that you set-up a fair and equitable competition and fixture first, then you sell the tv rights to that for whatever they are worth.

You don't rig a whole competition because a tv network will pay more… or we could just play essendon v collingwood every second week, be great for tellie and crowds.

If the tv rights are only worth $900,000,000 with a genuine draw then so be it. The competition wouldn't implode, the poorer clubs would be better off with more exposure and less handouts.

Absolutely agree.


I don't want to follow or support a staged and choreographed reality show.

I want to follow and support a sporting competition.


Sadly, the AFL is the former.

[dragit]

Absolutely agree.

oh dear…

[plugger66]

Absolutely agree.

oh dear…

You have a friend. good luck. Depression may set in.

[Life Long Saint]

This has such an easy fix.
We all want a fair fixture with all Melbourne teams travelling interstate the same amount of times as other Melbourne teams.
We all want our teams to play in high drawing games against local teams as much as possible.

Well the answer is conferences (or pools or leagues or whatever - the name isn't important).
Into conference A goes:
Carlton
Collingwood
Essendon
Geelong
Hawthorn
Melbourne
Richmond
St Kilda
Western Bulldogs

Into conference B goes:
Adelaide
Brisbane
Fremantle
GWS
Gold Coast
North Melbourne
Port Adelaide
Sydney
West Coast

Each team plays every team in their own conference twice - maximising the block busters - and every team in the other conference once.
Conference B has all the interstate teams in it (plus North - because 1 team from Vic had to go in there). All the local blockbusters are played twice a year. The non Victorian teams travel every second week as it is so there's no difference there.
Conference A has the big blockbusters played twice a season and interstate travel is limited to four or five times/season.

The problem, of course, is that the total games increases from 22 to 25. Well, we play 23 rounds now and it's soon to be 24. So 25 is not that big a stretch if you ditch the NAB cup.
The AFLPA will, of course, whinge that the players are playing too much football. Well, fine, let's make each player only allowed to play 22 of the 25 H&A games. With no NAB cup, this may even be increased to 23 or 24.
What about grounds, I hear you ask?
Well, with all the "alternative" venues around the place, I am sure that some arrangement can be made. In Victoria, we have Etihad and Kardinia Park available if the 'G can't be used. Don't forget that the AFL are looking to start the season earlier as it is because Rugby League is getting the jump on AFL.

And now we move to finals.
Each conference would have a top 4 with the top 2 in each having the double chance and playing the top two from the other conference.
Qualifying Finals: A-1 v B-2; B-1 v A-2
Elimination Finals: A-3 v B-4; B-3 v A-4

Win/loss records would determine draft order for those teams that didn't make the finals.

More games, fairer fixture, maximised revenue.

[plugger66]

Seems very fair on North. But who cares about them. lets swap North and the saints and then see how fair people think it is.

[dragit]

Seems very fair on North. But who cares about them. lets swap North and the saints and then see how fair people think it is.

Yes I actually laughed out loud…

It's not the worst format I have seen, but it would need only 9 victorian teams to work… easily arranged, send essendon to tassie…

also, not sure about literal divisions… the draw could be set out that way, but they should all play on the same ladder… otherwise you end with inferior sides playing finals… richmond would miss out for wce this year - they are 4 wins apart at the moment.

[mr six o'clock]

Seems very fair on North. But who cares about them. lets swap North and the saints and then see how fair people think it is.

Using this system , geelong should be in the other group as they are not part of metro area !