Tom Ledger??

[Bernard Shakey]

Saw him kick 60 metres on his non preferred. No wonder he is not getting game.

I could have kicked it 100 metres with either foot in that wind, and I'm not getting a game!

Really. Nobody else did.

You obviously weren't at the game.

[Bernard Shakey]

Shakey youve always had something against this kid. Every post is negative from you. He has a crack and averages over 27 touches for the year. Simply deserves a chance

I've got nothing against Tom and if you cared to go back to 2011 you'd find that I was one of his most staunch supporters. Unfortunately he has not developed his game at all since then. He gets plenty of it, does nothing with it and if he doesn't get it he stands around wondering what to do next.

[St Ick]

Shakey youve always had something against this kid. Every post is negative from you. He has a crack and averages over 27 touches for the year. Simply deserves a chance

I've got nothing against Tom and if you cared to go back to 2011 you'd find that I was one of his most staunch supporters. Unfortunately he has not developed his game at all since then. He gets plenty of it, does nothing with it and if he doesn't get it he stands around wondering what to do next.

I must say, he is an absolute butcher! His decision making was woeful, his execution by foot was horrific, and while he got so much of the ball today - he wouldn't last a full game before a frustrated coach would give him a red vest due to the turnovers. There was a time on the back flank where he was free, he jogged to draw a player, then instead of kicking it down the line he handballed it to a player under the pump, who subsequently lost it and Bombers kicked a goal. Those sorts of things should not happen at VFL level unless you are only a VFL standard player.

I liked him when he first came too, along with the other WA kid, not Cripps, the other one whose name escapes me but couldn't bulk up or stay on the park, either way, he is not the type of player we play now.

Its for this reason that James Magner doesn't get a game for the lowly Demons, its one thing to get your hands on the ball but I'd rather 16 elite possessions than 30+ possies with 20 turnovers. He will be delisted, picked up by someone else, and average 100 dream team points but provide a massive source of frustration for people who actually watch the game of footy closely.

[Dr Spaceman]

St Ick, everything you say above is probably correct.

However, given where we lie this season and given we are giving games to kids who are having only 2 or 3 kicks, I reckon the Ledge deserves a run in the seniors. If he butchers it; if he's delisted at the end if the year, so be it.

[skeptic]

Pbly the single biggest annoyance of the season for me

The bottomline is he deserves a game based on what he has produced and added to the fact that we are so terrible.

SW refusal to play him is the first sign of the bizarre decision making that became evident early in his predesscors tenure which was masked by team the fact that the team began winning.

That decision making came back to bite us again and again and even is now.

Personally i'm starting to lose faith

[BigMart]

St Ick

How did Jack get BOG last week with 55% efficiency and the most clangers on the ground?

There are worse kicks playing seniors

[St Ick]

St Ick, everything you say above is probably correct.

However, given where we lie this season and given we are giving games to kids who are having only 2 or 3 kicks, I reckon the Ledge deserves a run in the seniors. If he butchers it; if he's delisted at the end if the year, so be it.

Fair assessment, as for gifting him games I guess why not if we are only playing kids anyway, even if he isn't deserving them. I reckon as a selector you'd want him to do more than rack them up, I'd say the decision to delist has already been made.

Big Mart, as for looking at it completely from a numbers point of view, and comparing Ledger's game today vs Jack's game last week, I reckon you are off the mark. I rarely look at disposal efficiency statistics to back up my thoughts, as the criteria are absolute cr@p! I'll never look up a website to try to find a statistic to sway my arguement, I'll just call it how I see it, and I currently see Ledger butchering it a lot despite knowing how to find a footy

[joffaboy]

St Ick

How did Jack get BOG last week with 55% efficiency and the most clangers on the ground?

There are worse kicks playing seniors

You seriously comparing Ledger with Jack Steven, a player who got 36 possessions in a team beaten by 100 points?

Really comparing Ledger to Steven is a joke, surely.

I know you hate Steven, dont know why, maybe there wasn't a picture of him somewhere, who knows, but to compare a VFL butcher to Jack Steven is hilarious.

[plugger66]

St Ick

How did Jack get BOG last week with 55% efficiency and the most clangers on the ground?

There are worse kicks playing seniors

You seriously comparing Ledger with Jack Steven, a player who got 36 possessions in a team beaten by 100 points?

Really comparing Ledger to Steven is a joke, surely.

I know you hate Steven, dont know why, maybe there wasn't a picture of him somewhere, who knows, but to compare a VFL butcher to Jack Steven is hilarious.

You know he has to continue to justify his fair player tag on him because the one thing BM cant do is say the word wrrr.

[St Ick]

What is Viv Mitchie like with his disposal?

Ledger and something for Mitchie?

[Mr Magic]

Without sounding like Captain Obvious there must be something he's not doing, or something he's doing wrong, that the Coaches don't like.
I have heard that there is an 'attitude issue' but I'm not sure what that 'issue' is.

Whatever 'it' is it must be really important to the Coaches for them to continually overlook him for selection.

We on the outside have no idea why he's not being selected and therefore are perplexed, given his continued racking up of possessions in the VFL.

[WellardSaint]

Harves. I will get howled down, but whatever.
I went to hundreds of games at Moorabbin, and Waverley, and remember Harves kicking over guy's outstretched hands, missing targets, more often than not.
We got belted by >100 pts quite often, and his turnovers were all the more obvious.
Some kicks were good, but lots more were very very poor.
Kicks were intercepted, dropped short, way too high, you name it.
Somehow he was forgiven, because he could weave out of traffic and get free.
He ruined his own good work.
Blame was apportioned to the receiver for not having 14 metre long arms.

[plugger66]

Harves. I will get howled down, but whatever.
I went to hundreds of games at Moorabbin, and Waverley, and remember Harves kicking over guy's outstretched hands, missing targets, more often than not.
We got belted by >100 pts quite often, and his turnovers were all the more obvious.
Some kicks were good, but lots more were very very poor.
Kicks were intercepted, dropped short, way too high, you name it.
Somehow he was forgiven, because he could weave out of traffic and get free.
He ruined his own good work.
Blame was apportioned to the receiver for not having 14 metre long arms.

I remember him kicking it to lockett on many occasions and hiting on the chest. I also remember him very occassionally missing a target. I have no idea why you mentioned Haves though. Ledger and harvey have little to do with each other.

[Kernal75]

I watched Ledger closely yesterday. Yes the conditions were ordinary, but Ledgers 38 possessions had absolutely no influence on the game. Gets the footy and then mongrels it down field to no one. I actually saw him miss a handball target under no pressure to a guy 2 metres away, then went and got again himself and hacked it out on the full. That would be compounded even more in the AFL. I personally don't think he'll make it.

[matrix]

so going to elaborate on what you heard BM?
or keep everyone in total suspense

how about you just say it

ill say what ive heard

then we compare hearings

[skeptic]

the problem with all of these arguments RE his disposal or impact or whatever is that there are ppl playing worse and or equally if not moreso undeserving of games that are being given multiple chances.

Guys like TDL, Saad, Siposs at times plus others like Ray and Jones etc have all been given multiple opportunities and some persevered with at times on the back on woeful performances.

PPl may well not agree with this but I'm telling that is the first sign that something is not alright with the coach/match committee. Unless there is a mitigating factor that we don't know about which there must be (and I agree with MM on that) then there is bizarre, inconsistent, irrational form of thinking emerging which if left unchecked, will result in another situation where an Andrew McQualter will play 20 games in a season getting about 10-15 touches, having no impact and us saying "yay he did his role".

It's a real problem

[SaintPav]

Harves. I will get howled down, but whatever.
I went to hundreds of games at Moorabbin, and Waverley, and remember Harves kicking over guy's outstretched hands, missing targets, more often than not.
We got belted by >100 pts quite often, and his turnovers were all the more obvious.
Some kicks were good, but lots more were very very poor.
Kicks were intercepted, dropped short, way too high, you name it.
Somehow he was forgiven, because he could weave out of traffic and get free.
He ruined his own good work.
Blame was apportioned to the receiver for not having 14 metre long arms.

That's garbage. Absolute crap.

We also hardly, if ever got belted by 100+ points often during his time.

BTW, Gordon Ramsay can cook. You don't own numerous Michelin Star restaurants and not know just a bit about food.

Do you just make stuff up..sounds like it.

[ausfatcat]

BTW, Gordon Ramsay can cook. You don't own numerous Michelin Star restaurants and not know just a bit about food.

try his scrambled eggs yummy

[defacto]

Ledgers decision making and disposal is atrocious. Barely VFL quality let alone AFL. Add to that his tackling and it's game set and match I'm afraid

[defacto]

the problem with all of these arguments RE his disposal or impact or whatever is that there are ppl playing worse and or equally if not moreso undeserving of games that are being given multiple chances.

Guys like TDL, Saad, Siposs at times plus others like Ray and Jones etc have all been given multiple opportunities and some persevered with at times on the back on woeful performances.

PPl may well not agree with this but I'm telling that is the first sign that something is not alright with the coach/match committee. Unless there is a mitigating factor that we don't know about which there must be (and I agree with MM on that) then there is bizarre, inconsistent, irrational form of thinking emerging which if left unchecked, will result in another situation where an Andrew McQualter will play 20 games in a season getting about 10-15 touches, having no impact and us saying "yay he did his role".

It's a real problem

Ledger is a classic case of a player playing for himself rather than learning from coaches instructions

We're wasting our time IMO

[skeptic]

I just don't u/s this,

We're talking about development... not the finished product.

The VFL is full of players of different ages, strengths, experiences etc - there are some very hardened, experienced fit players trying to earn a shot in the AFL, rekindle a failed career etc
A sensible expectation is that 18-21yo drafted kids... even if they're future stars will not dominate against 25-30yo men.

All you can realistically hope for is that these kids demonstrate some decent performances, not brilliant but decent, that indicate they have something that is worth persevering with and then focus on developing that.

That's what we did with Seb Ross who up until the early part of the season was hardly a world beater... in fact most were talking about him as though he was another wasted pick.
Tom Lee is another example. Never dominated the VFL either.

You give these guys a few games, send them back to work on a few things and then give them another few goes.

Classic example is Tom Curren. Earned his spot. Played his first game as sub and did well. Was really average against Geelong and by all accounts ok'ish Vs Brisbane.
Now he may be dropped now as he hasn't exactly set the world on fire but that's ok. If we'd started playing him earlier, he'd have the opportunity to work his way back in and demonstrate some improvement and we could decide if he's worth persevering with.
IMO it takes more than 10-12 games to be able to make that decision in an informed way because it's the IMPROVEMENT and potential for further IMPROVEMENT that you're measuring.

Or you loook at Saunders/Murdoch - earned their shot... show potential, have had the butts handed to them on a platter on numerous occasions but we've seen enough of them to say hey they're worth persevering with

Now you take Tom Ledger. How old is he? 21? Has consistently been amongst the better Sandy players but has clear flaws in his game that need to be ironed out for him to be a better player.
If he had an opportunity of say 3-4 games earlier in the season, he may have played one good one... or none and he could go back and work harder at the things he needs to and reload.

How can you possibly measure the kids potemtial when you don't play him???

I don't think there's even a point of playing him now because he'd have a total of 5 games against grown men to save his career. Realistically, who can do that when they've played only a handful of games in 3 years.

On form he's earned his shot. He's earned it ahead of Saad, TDL, Siposs, Murdoch, Ross (at times) and the flaws in his game are no worse then those of Jones, Ray etc These reasons ppl keep dishing out... bad disposal, poor attitude blah blah blah - it's crap when he has the form which he has consistently demonstarted. AGain it's not about him being a ready made perfect player that waltzes into the 22 and dominates games... it's ok if he has defiencies in his game now... that question is can he go up a level... and he needs to play AFL for us to see.

Honestly... I wouldn't blame him if he's got a major chip on his shoulder and a bad attitude now. He's worked his butt off and he's been written off for a reason we don't know and I bet he doesn't know either.

I love how ppl who have watched him in the VFL can just KNOW he won't make it.

[Mr Magic]

Skeptic, whilst you acknowledge that 'there must be something going on that we don't know about' regarding Ledger you've ignored that possibility completely in your post.

Maybe he has continually refused to work on the 'aspect' that the Coaches feel is holding him back?
He might just be a kid that dominated his local junior comp and refuses to take note of what his Coaches are telling him on how to improve 'for the team' thinking that he is 'too good'? (I don't know that is the case just putting it out there as a possibility)

If he is continually ignoring what he's been told to do then it wouldn't make any difference how good his form is in the VFL.
He's not going to succeed by thumbing his nose at those who are doing the selecting.

And FWIW, I don't believe there is any coach/selection panel in AFL football who cannot see talent and will purposely not select a player for any reason other than he is
out of form
injured
not doing what he is asked to do
not capable of doing what he is needed to do

So the premise of many of the countless posts on 'why isn't Ledger getting picked' completely ignores the obvious (to me) fact that Ledger is not doing what he is supposed to be doing.

[skeptic]

Maybe if they reward his form, he'll work harder on whatever it is he's not doing.

A player that needs to work on his disposal ala Curren, still gets to play and work on his disposal

That said, i guess ur right MM

what do u think it is MM?

[Mr Magic]

Maybe if they reward his form, he'll work harder on whatever it is he's not doing.

A player that needs to work on his disposal ala Curren, still gets to play and work on his disposal

That said, i guess ur right MM

what do u think it is MM?

I don't really know - I've heard snippets that he is 'very sure of himself' and does not necessarily accept what he's being told by his coaches.
If that is true then I cannot understand why the recruiters wouldn't have picked up such an attitude when interviewing him before recruiting him.
Surely an attitude issue would have revealed itself in any interview they would have conducted with him. Where was he picked up in the draft (#)?
Did he slip lower than expected?
If so, maybe that was a sign that others overlooked him for a reason?

Unlike many on here I don't accept for one second that the coaches will not a play someone who will improve our performances, for no good reason.

[spert]

I think Ledger looks OK generally and should be given a chance in the seniors- a player who regularly gets possession of the ball is much more value than a player who can't get hands on ball...all players have some skills or attitude flaws- have a look at our senior team!