Why 'punish the club'?

[rodgerfox]

What's the point of punishing Essendon?


Who are you really punishing?


In reality, it's the fans that get hurt by it.


If a company does something wrong, granted they may be fined as a punishment - but generally it's the board that gets sent to jail. Obviously the extent of the punsihment varies, but it's the board that are accountable.


Let's say the Saints brought the game into disrepute. Why punish us, the fans? Why would we lose flags and points and draft picks etc.? It's not fair - I didn't do anything! But I'm the one that cops it.


Punish the board. Punish the individuals involved.


But why would you punish the fans - which in reality is what happens.

[thejiggingsaint]

Interesting line of thought on the issue.

[plugger66]

Good idea. Lets get a board in for one year and cheat as much as humanily possible and then the AFL just kick the board out. It isnt fair on supporters but you have to punish the club.

[saint6]

giving the club sanctions for bad behaviour does not punish the fans at all. Yes they may be fined and lose draft picks but the club will still exist. Think it would be totally unfair to the 17 other clubs who have not done anything wrong (as far as we are aware) to allow them to get away with a systematic approach to team doping if they are found to be guilty.

[rodgerfox]

Good idea. Lets get a board in for one year and cheat as much as humanily possible and then the AFL just kick the board out. It isnt fair on supporters but you have to punish the club.

Obviously you'd have to do more than just kick the board out.

Like in the corporate world, if they do something really bad, there are genuine legal consequences.


Currently, the board would get voted out, go back to their lucrative day jobs and continue on like nothing happened - and leave the diehard fans to wallow in the mess of supporting a club that has been crippled by punishment and can't win the flag for the next 10 years.

Not fair.

[mambo2706]

Good idea. Lets get a board in for one year and cheat as much as humanily possible and then the AFL just kick the board out. It isnt fair on supporters but you have to punish the club.

What he said.

[rodgerfox]

giving the club sanctions for bad behaviour does not punish the fans at all. Yes they may be fined and lose draft picks but the club will still exist. Think it would be totally unfair to the 17 other clubs who have not done anything wrong (as far as we are aware) to allow them to get away with a systematic approach to team doping if they are found to be guilty.

But I guess that is the question - who is 'them'?


It's kind of like when a horse wins a race when on the juice. The owners have to return the prizemoney - but the punters don't have to give back their winnings. It's not their fault, they had nothing to do with it - so why punish them?

[plugger66]

Good idea. Lets get a board in for one year and cheat as much as humanily possible and then the AFL just kick the board out. It isnt fair on supporters but you have to punish the club.

Obviously you'd have to do more than just kick the board out.

Like in the corporate world, if they do something really bad, there are genuine legal consequences.


Currently, the board would get voted out, go back to their lucrative day jobs and continue on like nothing happened - and leave the diehard fans to wallow in the mess or supporting a club that can't win the flag for the next 10 years.

Not fair.

But it isnt illegal to go over the salary cap or have give the players drugs that are legal but banned by WADA so you couldnt charge them with anything.

[SENsei]

Rodger, you are saying what several friends of mine who support Essendon are saying. I hear them but I think the punishment needs to be strong and public. As P66 says, there needs to be a club sanction. Personally, I'd put them out of the compe for 2014 and let them play in the VFL with whatever players aren't suspended. It's not just the Essendon fans or even the Essendon Football Club at risk here....it's the whole comp they have put in a precariously situation. It will cost some big boys at the AFl their jobs too before this is over.

[rodgerfox]

Obviously.

And that's really where the problem lies. The wrong people actually get punished.


There is no real punishment for those who make the mistakes and/or break the laws of the game. They cheat or stuff up, then simply move on. and 'the club' cops draft losses and fines - which the supporter reels from for the next decade.


Not fair.

[plugger66]

giving the club sanctions for bad behaviour does not punish the fans at all. Yes they may be fined and lose draft picks but the club will still exist. Think it would be totally unfair to the 17 other clubs who have not done anything wrong (as far as we are aware) to allow them to get away with a systematic approach to team doping if they are found to be guilty.

But I guess that is the question - who is 'them'?


It's kind of like when a horse wins a race when on the juice. The owners have to return the prizemoney - but the punters don't have to give back their winnings. It's not their fault, they had nothing to do with it - so why punish them?

Im pretty sure thats a bad analogy. for a start its impossible to give the money back. If a horse is protested against and loses the protest the punters dont get their winnings.

[joffaboy]

Rodger, you are saying what several friends of mine who support Essendon are saying. I hear them but I think the punishment needs to be strong and public. As P66 says, there needs to be a club sanction. Personally, I'd put them out of the compe for 2014 and let them play in the VFL with whatever players aren't suspended. It's not just the Essendon fans or even the Essendon Football Club at risk here....it's the whole comp they have put in a precariously situation. It will cost some big boys at the AFl their jobs too before this is over.

Wow the VFL crowds at the local ovals would be HUGE

[rodgerfox]

Rodger, you are saying what several friends of mine who support Essendon are saying. I hear them but I think the punishment needs to be strong and public. As P66 says, there needs to be a club sanction. Personally, I'd put them out of the compe for 2014 and let them play in the VFL with whatever players aren't suspended. It's not just the Essendon fans or even the Essendon Football Club at risk here....it's the whole comp they have put in a precariously situation. It will cost some big boys at the AFl their jobs too before this is over.

The problem is that those in control of these clubs, come and go.

They're not major shareholders or trustees in a financial sense. They're just some dudes that are either employed for a period of time, or sit on a board for 4 years. They then move on, and someone else comes in.


The concept of 'the club' doesn't really fit. When we talk about 'the club' these days, the only common thing between 'the club' 15 years ago, and now is really only the supporters. The odd boot studder or Dustin Fletcher freak may still be there, but 'the club' is really made up of 1000s od people with no actual input, and certainly no responsibility of the running of the joint.


Clearly there needs to be punishment. And it needs to fit the crime.

But just for me, it seems the ones who actually cop the most severe punishment are the fans. And as much as I love seeing Essendon fans miserable and getting punished, I can't really see how it's fair.


Kind of like bombing innocent civilians because you hate a country because of their government. I mean dude, if someone needs to be punished, don't take it out on the innocent civilians with no input and no control over what is happening.

[SENsei]

Rodger, you are saying what several friends of mine who support Essendon are saying. I hear them but I think the punishment needs to be strong and public. As P66 says, there needs to be a club sanction. Personally, I'd put them out of the compe for 2014 and let them play in the VFL with whatever players aren't suspended. It's not just the Essendon fans or even the Essendon Football Club at risk here....it's the whole comp they have put in a precariously situation. It will cost some big boys at the AFl their jobs too before this is over.

Wow the VFL crowds at the local ovals would be HUGE

Ain't gonna happen though. It will still be a wet lettuce, non competition type fine or suspension. AFL will be gutless about it. You watch.

[SENsei]

Rodger, you are saying what several friends of mine who support Essendon are saying. I hear them but I think the punishment needs to be strong and public. As P66 says, there needs to be a club sanction. Personally, I'd put them out of the compe for 2014 and let them play in the VFL with whatever players aren't suspended. It's not just the Essendon fans or even the Essendon Football Club at risk here....it's the whole comp they have put in a precariously situation. It will cost some big boys at the AFl their jobs too before this is over.

The problem is that those in control of these clubs, come and go.

They're not major shareholders or trustees in a financial sense. They're just some dudes that are either employed for a period of time, or sit on a board for 4 years. They then move on, and someone else comes in.


The concept of 'the club' doesn't really fit. When we talk about 'the club' these days, the only common thing between 'the club' 15 years ago, and now is really only the supporters. The odd boot studder or Dustin Fletcher freak may still be there, but 'the club' is really made up of 1000s od people with no actual input, and certainly no responsibility of the running of the joint.


Clearly there needs to be punishment. And it needs to fit the crime.

But just for me, it seems the ones who actually cop the most severe punishment are the fans. And as much as I love seeing Essendon fans miserable and getting punished, I can't really see how it's fair.


Kind of like bombing innocent civilians because you hate a country because of their government. I mean dude, if someone needs to be punished, don't take it out on the innocent civilians with no input and no control over what is happening.

I hear what you are saying.

There is no such thing as a 'club' anymore anyway. They are all multi-million dollar businesses run as franchises of one of the biggest businesses in Australia. Ain't no suburban clubs.

[rodgerfox]

giving the club sanctions for bad behaviour does not punish the fans at all. Yes they may be fined and lose draft picks but the club will still exist. Think it would be totally unfair to the 17 other clubs who have not done anything wrong (as far as we are aware) to allow them to get away with a systematic approach to team doping if they are found to be guilty.

But I guess that is the question - who is 'them'?


It's kind of like when a horse wins a race when on the juice. The owners have to return the prizemoney - but the punters don't have to give back their winnings. It's not their fault, they had nothing to do with it - so why punish them?

Im pretty sure thats a bad analogy. for a start its impossible to give the money back. If a horse is protested against and loses the protest the punters dont get their winnings.

Protested against - yes. Has the win taken off it because of a dodgy trainer giving it juice - no.

[plugger66]

But I guess that is the question - who is 'them'?


It's kind of like when a horse wins a race when on the juice. The owners have to return the prizemoney - but the punters don't have to give back their winnings. It's not their fault, they had nothing to do with it - so why punish them?

Im pretty sure thats a bad analogy. for a start its impossible to give the money back. If a horse is protested against and loses the protest the punters dont get their winnings.

Protested against - yes. Has the win taken off it because of a dodgy trainer giving it juice - no.

Because its impossible. They would if they could.

[markp]

Because them's the rules.

If the fans feel aggrieved they can take it up with the culpable, or go support an ethical club.

If a father murders someone and is sent to jail his kids are punished too. Sometimes life's a bitch.

But this possible 'punishing of the fans' does not even rate on the scale of human tragedy.

The club as an entity has cheated the rest of the comp... What if they'd gotten away with it and won a flag?

<deleted by mods> 'em all.

[Con Gorozidis]

Life isnt fair.
Its the best worst option.
There is no other feasible optiosn than punishing the club.
In any case in the corporate world - shareholders pay the price for poor governance decisions every single day.
If a Board makes a mistake or even engage in corruption or just do a shocking deal- often they carry on as usual and the shareholders suffer.
They dont say - oh the company stuffed up and the shareholders werent to blame to lets recompense them.
You obviously dont follow the sharemarket Rodger - this happens every day.
Shareholders sometimes form class actions to sue Boards - this happens from time to time.
Maybe the Bombers fans can give Slater and Gordon a call and sue the Bombers board as a class action? But they have suffered no financial loss so that wouldnt go real far.

[saintspremiers]

Essendope won't be forced to just play VFL next year as it would mean 8 not 9 games a round.

The broadcasters would rip up their contracts and demand money returned for breach of contract.

In simply hoping for a $3M fine and draft pick bans for the first 2 rounds for 3 years.

And of course zero points for 2013 & Jab's brownlow forfeited.

[rodgerfox]

Because its impossible. They would if they could.

Yeah, that's true.

Probably was a bad analogy.

[rodgerfox]

Because them's the rules.

If the fans feel aggrieved they can take it up with the culpable, or go support an ethical club.

But I guess that's the point - it's not 'the club' that unethical. It's a group of people.


Besides, your point is interesting about changing clubs. That's been unheard in this sport. But perhaps we're heading down a path where people may start to follow clubs as it suits them.

[Dr Spaceman]

As others have alluded to we have absolutely no chance of eradicating cheating if we don’t punish the clubs. Supporters are, unfortunately, simply collateral damage.

Just like if our country cheats at the Olympics then the officials and athletes involved cop it and we the supporters have to suck it up.

There simply is no other way.

[Con Gorozidis]

As others have alluded to we have absolutely no chance of eradicating cheating if we don’t punish the clubs. Supporters are, unfortunately, simply collateral damage.

Just like if our country cheats at the Olympics then the officials and athletes involved cop it and we the supporters have to suck it up.

There simply is no other way.

What if the AOC decided to ban Chinese swim coaches but let the swimmers compete and break world records and win golds because they didnt want to upset the 'fans'.

Aussies would go feral!

And what of the other 17 sides 'fans' whose feelings are hurt when their team gets smashed by a side competing on unfair grounds - that aint real fair either is it.

[markp]

Because them's the rules.

If the fans feel aggrieved they can take it up with the culpable, or go support an ethical club.

But I guess that's the point - it's not 'the club' that unethical. It's a group of people.


Besides, your point is interesting about changing clubs. That's been unheard in this sport. But perhaps we're heading down a path where people may start to follow clubs as it suits them.

A club is ultimately just a group of people, and the ones elected to run this one by & on behalf of its members cheated. They'll all suffer. The game suffers. Even we'll suffer.

All the more reason that in addition those individuals directly responsible should be banned for life, hird included.