Eight years of pain coming ...

[Kiedis]

There are many cases of rebuilds taking anywhere from 4-8 years. It depends on development, taking your opportunities in the draft and trade period and a little luck. Look at Port Adelaide for example. Grand Final in 07, finals 08 then in the wilderness for four years...And now a good chance of playing finals in 2013. We've also seen the Swans, Hawks and WCE have quick turnarounds in form. Then there are the Blues, Tigers, Lions and Demons who have been down and out for close to a decade. The point is I wouldn't be putting a timeframe like 8 years or 4 years on our rebuild. We could be playing finals by 2015 or 2020. Lets see how good (or bad) Pelchen is.

This. Anyone who thinks they have a better idea of how It's all going to pan out is kidding themselves..

[Buckets]

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Hawthorn Finals 2001
2002 - Miss with 11 Wins
2003 - Miss with 12 wins
2004 - 4 Wins
2005 - 5 wins
2006 - 9 wins
2007 - 14 wins
2008 - Flag

One would suggest that had they gone the rebuild earlier then it would have been a shorter stint out of the finals. Once they bottomed out 2004 it took them 4 years to get a flag....


Richmond's recruiting under Wallace was hopeless, would be better to look at Richmond since Dimma took over.

Melbourne deliberately went out to get draft picks. The culture of losing became apart of the team unfortunately. However you look at the talent they do have and they if molded properly will be very dangerous. They actually dont have a bad backline or forwardline, its the midfield that they lack in drastically.

Everyone just fails to realise our lack of recruits for 5 years and get examples that somehow prove we will come back up quickly. Hawthorn got a priorty pick. We may not get one. Lions have made the finals once in 10 years. carlton missed out for 7 years. BHoth those are good examples why ours will take a long time. the difference between us and Brisbane is they won flags but after that it is very similar to us. they still had old stars but bugger youth due to sustained success. Carlton got banned from the early draft picks. we havent be banned even though you would think we were. Those years of poor recruiting will set us back a fair few years IMo of course. hope to be proved wrong.

Do you not remember how hard Pelchin went at the Hawks early on? The amount of players that he traded out? The Hawks faithful were ropeable.
They got 1 priority pick but look at how aggressive they were in trading from 2004 onwards.

Brisbane stuffed up due to getting Fev and that killed them, they traded away Henderson and Pick 12. Henderson would be a good fit for the Lions forward line right about now. And who knows Lions could have grabbed Jetta.
Carlton got hammered on 2 fronts. The first their list was in severe decline in 2001 and then when they have the top picks they are banned from the 1st and 2nd rounds of drafting for 2 years.

Hawks are the better comparison and I would think that Pelchin already has his eyes set on players with any wealth that could be a part of aggressive trading come the end of the year.

[Buckets]

Sorry they got 2.

[Stephen Theodore]

People seem to overlook that first quarter yesterday when our intensity got us to be in a good position. Obviously it was disappointing to see that drop off, but I'm of the opinion (still) that we are not THAT far away from being a competetive force again in the coming seasons.

I think GWS led Hawthorn at half time in a game this year and have won exactly no games with a good chance of winning exactly no games. I like your positivity but I wish you could actually explain it to us guys who think we are stuffed for a fir few years. By the way i hope it doesnt top people following us and barracking strongly for us even when we are down. It certainly doesnt worry me going all the way down. I am used to it. It may worry the now generation which really worries me. You can tell their age by their posting on here. Calling for sacking and the clubs a disgrace and so on.

Had to laugh at the " tell their age by their posting" comment. I've been playing a little game most of this season on this forum, exactly that, working out the thick skinned old buggers who've seen it all before, and the "newbies" who are calling for every man and their dog to be sacked. To be honest, I'm not too sure about S.W, but sacking him at the moment would be absolutely pointless.

We are now paying for some massive recruiting blunders, and will pay for a few more years yet.

[plugger66]

I think maverick is pretty on the money. Why does anyone need to prove anything to you Plugger for simply giving an opinion. Why don't you justify the crap you post. It's an opinion too not a scientific formula.

I think Paul Roos would be the next Blighty by the way- couldn't give a s*** about footy anymore and would only do it for the money. Out of touch now and a game plan that was revolutionary in the early 2000s. Would be a disaster, I think Rocket Eade is probably the best of the current ex seniors and then Choco.

IMO the difference is that under Blight we sacked so many good players and then followed up under Watson sacking the rest of our middle core. We did the full list cull and rebuild from zero. I don't think we will go beyond transitional rebuild under Watters.

We are artificially down on what we probably should have been with a full list to choose from. We really have only had Roberton play every game in defence and the only of our older senior players to play every game are Roo and Dal who is down on his usual output. Not as gloomy as it all sounds. We would have been a lot more motivated had a few of our close loses gone the other way.

You really are brain dead which is fine for us but it must worry your family. I respect Maverick's opinion because he actually thinks before he posts. Something you could learn from. And i gave plenty of reasons why i think as I do. maybe they went over your head. How about you tell us something for a change instead of just saying this player will be good and Roos will only do it for the money. Why occasionally would be nice. I bet you were a person who had us top 6 this year because you follow the saints. great to be positive but occasionally you actually need to see what is really happening. Now run away. you really are a bit simple.

That's funny old fella, you made some inane justifications that made it look like you considered the crap you write- that doesn't count. I had us finishing from best case 8 to 14worst case I think but I suggested needing an injury free run and to win the close ones. I always said that this was going to be a super close season. Just because you want us down so you can feel like a hard core fan doesn't make you right.

Super close season. Well it is for 14th to 17th. Who wants us down? Just because I think we will struggle doesnt mean I want us to struggle but people like you cant see that. Now instead of just using words that mean jack tell me why my reasons are inane and tell us what you actually think and why. Just for a change. And by the way myself and Maverick were having a sensible discussion without any abuse and giving sensible reasons why we both had those opinions before you jumped in to defend someone that can mange to defend himself. Im sure one or two will jump on board with you but those he bother to read and can do so with both eyes open will see it was a good discussion.

[plugger66]

Hawthorn Finals 2001
2002 - Miss with 11 Wins
2003 - Miss with 12 wins
2004 - 4 Wins
2005 - 5 wins
2006 - 9 wins
2007 - 14 wins
2008 - Flag

One would suggest that had they gone the rebuild earlier then it would have been a shorter stint out of the finals. Once they bottomed out 2004 it took them 4 years to get a flag....


Richmond's recruiting under Wallace was hopeless, would be better to look at Richmond since Dimma took over.

Melbourne deliberately went out to get draft picks. The culture of losing became apart of the team unfortunately. However you look at the talent they do have and they if molded properly will be very dangerous. They actually dont have a bad backline or forwardline, its the midfield that they lack in drastically.

Everyone just fails to realise our lack of recruits for 5 years and get examples that somehow prove we will come back up quickly. Hawthorn got a priorty pick. We may not get one. Lions have made the finals once in 10 years. carlton missed out for 7 years. BHoth those are good examples why ours will take a long time. the difference between us and Brisbane is they won flags but after that it is very similar to us. they still had old stars but bugger youth due to sustained success. Carlton got banned from the early draft picks. we havent be banned even though you would think we were. Those years of poor recruiting will set us back a fair few years IMo of course. hope to be proved wrong.

Do you not remember how hard Pelchin went at the Hawks early on? The amount of players that he traded out? The Hawks faithful were ropeable.
They got 1 priority pick but look at how aggressive they were in trading from 2004 onwards.

Brisbane stuffed up due to getting Fev and that killed them, they traded away Henderson and Pick 12. Henderson would be a good fit for the Lions forward line right about now. And who knows Lions could have grabbed Jetta.
Carlton got hammered on 2 fronts. The first their list was in severe decline in 2001 and then when they have the top picks they are banned from the 1st and 2nd rounds of drafting for 2 years.

Hawks are the better comparison and I would think that Pelchin already has his eyes set on players with any wealth that could be a part of aggressive trading come the end of the year.

Buckets we stuffed up because of 5 years bad recruiting. That is why i think the other 2 are a much better comparison. Apart from the older stars our list is now like GWS but without the high draft picks and look how they are going.

[gringo]

The 5 years are no doubt poor years of recruiting but as long as Steven, Armo, Stanley and Big Ben come on we can add some middle of the road players around them and still have a solid team. We need some good years to make up for it but Sydney actually did a very quick rebuild because of some recruiting bumper years. If you get three a grade players from those guys it will still be an acceptable return that can be added to.

[Spinner]

It certainly will be at least 5 years if not longer due to the huge gap in recruiting over the last few years. even the last couple seem to have got a few good players but will any be A grade.Time will tell.

What's scary is that even though our recruiting has been bad the last few years, that's no guarantee that it will get any better!!

[Buckets]

It certainly will be at least 5 years if not longer due to the huge gap in recruiting over the last few years. even the last couple seem to have got a few good players but will any be A grade.Time will tell.

What's scary is that even though our recruiting has been bad the last few years, that's no guarantee that it will get any better!!

So Murdoch Webster Wright haven't been an improvement?

[MrCordz]

It certainly will be at least 5 years if not longer due to the huge gap in recruiting over the last few years. even the last couple seem to have got a few good players but will any be A grade.Time will tell.

Agree

Our list (In total) is the worst in the league

Melbourne
Bulldogs
GWS

have more talent that is yet to be developed on their list

but they have more in the sysytem...........

our list still to bottom out

the other 3 already have

As Big Al would Say...."Yeaup...Yeaup Yup Yup"

[older saint]

remember this is a guy who took over a team then drafted to ensure they had 8 years of pain - as long as he doesn't recruit for us it will not be that long!!

[3rd generation saint]

Once again, for me, our real season starts the week after the Grand Final, trade and draft season, that's when we may get a better idea of how long it might take.
It will be interesting to see how aggressive they are, and how smart. For example, if they are still interested in Mitch Brown, and if he is interested in us, it wont cost them a thing, because all they need him to do is nominate for the pre season draft and there's nothing West Coast can do about it.

[thejiggingsaint]

Agree with 3rd gen!

[noob]

It will be a longer build if we start trading our first rounders for quantity instead of quality.

[thejiggingsaint]

Stick fast with the club! They will be back sooner than a lot of folk (and experts) seem to think!

[dragit]

Stick fast with the club! They will be back sooner than a lot of folk (and experts) seem to think!

Stick with them even if it will be 20 years, surely we love the club, not just the team if it might make the finals soon...

[White Winmar]

It certainly will be at least 5 years if not longer due to the huge gap in recruiting over the last few years. even the last couple seem to have got a few good players but will any be A grade.Time will tell.

What's scary is that even though our recruiting has been bad the last few years, that's no guarantee that it will get any better!!

So Murdoch Webster Wright haven't been an improvement?

Surely the jury's still out on those guys, Buckets. They look ok atm, but the next step is the hardest and will ultimately be what they are judged by. Far too early to cast judgement on the so=called "new recruiting Department". As far as I can see, it's still most of the old crew, with the addition of Elshaug, and minus John Peake. I'd be pleased to stand corrected on that, but if one man with no track record in recruiting is going to be the difference, then heaven help us!

[The Redeemer]

It certainly will be at least 5 years if not longer due to the huge gap in recruiting over the last few years. even the last couple seem to have got a few good players but will any be A grade.Time will tell.

You reckon a proud club ... Collingwood for example ... would tolerate that sort of sustained failure? Not a chance and neither should we.

Five years is nowhere near ambitious enough. We need people who dare to dream, not ones who roll over and cop it.

So what's your plan then?

Play the kids, the ones you look good stay, the ones that dont go.

Chop and chop hard. It is a business so treat it as such.

Use free agency aggressively. Buy buy buy.

We are in a decent position to fill key defensive spots this off-season.

No talky. Action.

[Devilhead]

In the next two or three draft periods we must make it a priority to target MIDS MIDS MIDS and more MIDS

Look how many MIDS are running through Sydney at the moment - they literally have two rotating MID squads within their first choice 22

They have Kennedy, OKeefe, Bolton, Hanneberry, Parker, McVeigh, K Jack, Mitchell, and Bird - all these players rotate through the centre

Sydney's forward and backlines contain no big names just GOP's it is there midfield that makes them sooo competitive and hard to breakdown.

Bottom line is if you want to win games then you have to have the ability to consistently win the ball (and keep it of course).

We already have two half decent mids in Armitage and Steven and in the last few years we have targeted a few more potential mids in Newnes, Ross, Markworth, Ledger, Curren, Wright, Murdoch and Saunders (maybe Webster) - ok they are not worldbeaters at this stage (and some may get dropped from the list) but they are young and there is definitely room for improvement and development for those that do make it - a solid basis to build upon.

Top 5 Mid this year (Dunstan, Aish, Scharenberg, Sheed or Kelly) and another in the 2nd round and 3 rounds (Hanneberry went in the 2nd round - Parker went in the 3rd round) - plenty of mids still around between picks 20 and 50 - and another top 5 mid next year and mot likely the year after as well.

We have plenty of developing talls in McEvoy, White, Hickey, Stanley, Lever, Pierce, Staley, Lee and Ferguson (maybe Brown as well) - plenty of young potential there to fill KPP's in the coming years - again some will only be GOP's but so are S Reid, J White, T Richards, H Grundy, Roberts-Thomson - nothing special just solid forwards and backs

Given that we will soon have some juicy salary cap space to play with which will likely make us big players in the free agency market things are starting to look brighter ...... actually a whole lot brighter - using salary cap space and FA we can look to fill age and position gaps

Patience is a virtue possess it if you can seldom in a woman and never in a St Kilda supporter ....... be patient peoples - in terms of our current young playing list there is a lot to get excited about given there are playing games now - in a few more years these guys will have a formed a tight group and will know each others game inside out which is tantamount for success down the line.

We will rise once again how quickly will depend on our young development but also the decline of teams (ie: Hawthorn, Geelong, Essendon, Collingwood, Sydney with older playing lists) currently at the top end of the ladder.

[plugger66]

In the next two or three draft periods we must make it a priority to target MIDS MIDS MIDS and more MIDS

Look how many MIDS are running through Sydney at the moment - they literally have two rotating MID squads within their first choice 22

They have Kennedy, OKeefe, Bolton, Hanneberry, Parker, McVeigh, K Jack, Mitchell, and Bird - all these players rotate through the centre

Sydney's forward and backlines contain no big names just GOP's it is there midfield that makes them sooo competitive and hard to breakdown.

Bottom line is if you want to win games then you have to have the ability to consistently win the ball (and keep it of course).

We already have two half decent mids in Armitage and Steven and in the last few years we have targeted a few more potential mids in Newnes, Ross, Markworth, Ledger, Curren, Wright, Murdoch and Saunders (maybe Webster) - ok they are not worldbeaters at this stage (and some may get dropped from the list) but they are young and there is definitely room for improvement and development for those that do make it - a solid basis to build upon.

Top 5 Mid this year (Dunstan, Aish, Scharenberg, Sheed or Kelly) and another in the 2nd round and 3 rounds (Hanneberry went in the 2nd round - Parker went in the 3rd round) - plenty of mids still around between picks 20 and 50 - and another top 5 mid next year and mot likely the year after as well.

We have plenty of developing talls in McEvoy, White, Hickey, Stanley, Lever, Pierce, Staley, Lee and Ferguson (maybe Brown as well) - plenty of young potential there to fill KPP's in the coming years - again some will only be GOP's but so are S Reid, J White, T Richards, H Grundy, Roberts-Thomson - nothing special just solid forwards and backs

Given that we will soon have some juicy salary cap space to play with which will likely make us big players in the free agency market things are starting to look brighter ...... actually a whole lot brighter - using salary cap space and FA we can look to fill age and position gaps

Patience is a virtue possess it if you can seldom in a woman and never in a St Kilda supporter ....... be patient peoples - in terms of our current young playing list there is a lot to get excited about given there are playing games now - in a few more years these guys will have a formed a tight group and will know each others game inside out which is tantamount for success down the line.

We will rise once again how quickly will depend on our young development but also the decline of teams (ie: Hawthorn, Geelong, Essendon, Collingwood, Sydney with older playing lists) currently at the top end of the ladder.

Totally agree and have been saying the same thing for the last couple of years. You could tell the game was heading that way a few years back.

[Zed]

Far too early to cast judgement on the so=called "new recruiting Department". As far as I can see, it's still most of the old crew, with the addition of Elshaug, and minus John Peake. I'd be pleased to stand corrected on that, but if one man with no track record in recruiting is going to be the difference, then heaven help us!

So I keep reading about Pelchen this and Pelchen that but I really don't know what role he plays and who is calling the shots in the recruiting department now. I didn't think Pelchen was directly responsible for recruitment with us. Having said that, I think the last 2 years has been an improvement on the previous few years and I don't know if its Pelchen calling the shots or someone else - but we haven't recruited anywhere near enough talent to get us out of the toilet we have just fallen into.

[tony74]

End of 2014. No. 10
End of 2015. No. 18

[plugger66]

End of 2014. No. 10
End of 2015. No. 18

What does that mean Tony?

[magnifisaint]

I'll go 4.5 years

[Dr Spaceman]

End of 2014. No. 10
End of 2015. No. 18

What does that mean Tony?

I'll guess that's when we may see Markworth & Spencer start to make their mark.