Eight years of pain coming ...

[thejiggingsaint]

And your point is.....?

[matrix]

well tony i think it would be the big spence!
but if thats what the obvious isn't then i have no idea!

liking the looks of the youth at the moment

like you said
preseason under the belt more game time experience
we'll def be back up there quick enough
certainly hoping for something to start looking good before eight years time

[maverick]

So that means he is wrong? Tell us how he is wrong.

it simply doesn't take 8 years, that's why he is wrong.

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Richmond have been an administrational mess for decades now.
Melbourne made the finals in 2007, and have made blunders since, has only been 6 years.
If Roos was coach next year they probably would make the finals.

Hawthorn have never been out of the finals for 8 years in my lifetime.
We haven't been out of the finals for 8 years since 1991 either for that matter.

4-5 years max a re-build should take.

He is wrong, 3 years of pain, 2 years of hope, and then finals and beyond.
That's a successful rebuild.
This is our second year in.

[thejiggingsaint]

Maverick! wash your mouth out! This (apparently) is NOT what we want to see posted on this forum!

[plugger66]

it simply doesn't take 8 years, that's why he is wrong.

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Richmond have been an administrational mess for decades now.
Melbourne made the finals in 2007, and have made blunders since, has only been 6 years.
If Roos was coach next year they probably would make the finals.

Hawthorn have never been out of the finals for 8 years in my lifetime.
We haven't been out of the finals for 8 years since 1991 either for that matter.

4-5 years max a re-build should take.

He is wrong, 3 years of pain, 2 years of hope, and then finals and beyond.
That's a successful rebuild.
This is our second year in.

We have a 5 year whole in recruiting. That doesnt magically disappear. People need to factor that in when comparing us to other rebuilds. You have given me some stats to show it wont happen. Now i would love to hear the players we have at the moment to make it not happen. hope you are right by the way. I see it taking between 6 and 8 years from 2011.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

One major problem is that when we were down before we had:

Plugger kicking bags.
Winmar taking species.
Harvey weaving his magic.
Loewe gobbling up everything that floated in his vicinity.
Burke playing his guts out.
Barker flying high.
Robbie Muir flattening blokes.

There's not much character in the Saints at the moment. That needs to be addressed or attendances will fall through the floor.

[saintspremiers]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

Of course we are entering a 1998-2002 period. That is obvious.

Why do we think we are enetering 1998-2002?
I would have thought we are at least half way through the period.

See pluggers posts.

Like a blue moon and hayleys commet we agree occasionally on the same thing.

[thejiggingsaint]

[spert]

We haven't got eight years to wait, and we haven't got the resources to exist in the wilderness- if we keep falling behind, I doubt if the club will survive. We really have nothing to build on and as a far as I'm concerned- we practically start from scratch at the end of this season. We will need to do an element of quick fixes unfortunately or we'll be gone.

[thejiggingsaint]

Good GOD! You doubt the club will survive? UNBELIEVABLE! Sorry mate, but that is fair-dinkum UNBELIEVABLY pessimistic!

[maverick]

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Richmond have been an administrational mess for decades now.
Melbourne made the finals in 2007, and have made blunders since, has only been 6 years.
If Roos was coach next year they probably would make the finals.

Hawthorn have never been out of the finals for 8 years in my lifetime.
We haven't been out of the finals for 8 years since 1991 either for that matter.

4-5 years max a re-build should take.

He is wrong, 3 years of pain, 2 years of hope, and then finals and beyond.
That's a successful rebuild.

This is our second year in.

We have a 5 year whole in recruiting. That doesnt magically disappear. People need to factor that in when comparing us to other rebuilds. You have given me some stats to show it wont happen. Now i would love to hear the players we have at the moment to make it not happen. hope you are right by the way. I see it taking between 6 and 8 years from 2011.

So we are close to agreeing then?
6 years from 11 is 17
3 years of pain = 13, 14, 15
2 years of hope = 16, 17
finals = 18+

Other than Richmond, show me another team in recent times, 8 years out of the finals, ie 8 years of pain??
I can't think of one?

[Dr Spaceman]

Good GOD! You doubt the club will survive? UNBELIEVABLE! Sorry mate, but that is fair-dinkum UNBELIEVABLY pessimistic!

Agree jiggs. And don't forget:



“It’s a fine, fine, line between pleasure and pain!........”

[maverick]

We haven't got eight years to wait, and we haven't got the resources to exist in the wilderness- if we keep falling behind, I doubt if the club will survive. We really have nothing to build on and as a far as I'm concerned- we practically start from scratch at the end of this season. We will need to do an element of quick fixes unfortunately or we'll be gone.

Seriously?

[Buckets]

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Hawthorn Finals 2001
2002 - Miss with 11 Wins
2003 - Miss with 12 wins
2004 - 4 Wins
2005 - 5 wins
2006 - 9 wins
2007 - 14 wins
2008 - Flag

One would suggest that had they gone the rebuild earlier then it would have been a shorter stint out of the finals. Once they bottomed out 2004 it took them 4 years to get a flag....


Richmond's recruiting under Wallace was hopeless, would be better to look at Richmond since Dimma took over.

Melbourne deliberately went out to get draft picks. The culture of losing became apart of the team unfortunately. However you look at the talent they do have and they if molded properly will be very dangerous. They actually dont have a bad backline or forwardline, its the midfield that they lack in drastically.

[maverick]

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Hawthorn Finals 2001
2002 - Miss with 11 Wins
2003 - Miss with 12 wins
2004 - 4 Wins
2005 - 5 wins
2006 - 9 wins
2007 - 14 wins
2008 - Flag

One would suggest that had they gone the rebuild earlier then it would have been a shorter stint out of the finals. Once they bottomed out 2004 it took them 4 years to get a flag....


Richmond's recruiting under Wallace was hopeless, would be better to look at Richmond since Dimma took over.

Melbourne deliberately went out to get draft picks. The culture of losing became apart of the team unfortunately. However you look at the talent they do have and they if molded properly will be very dangerous. They actually dont have a bad backline or forwardline, its the midfield that they lack in drastically.

Exactly.
Maybe Wallace means it would take HIM 8 years to rebuild, i don't know I didn't hear him.

[plugger66]

Tell Richmond that. Or melbourne. Or us about 10 years ago. Or the Hawks previously. it can take up to 8 years. it can be shorter. we havent reached the bottom yet so god knows how long it will take.

Hawthorn Finals 2001
2002 - Miss with 11 Wins
2003 - Miss with 12 wins
2004 - 4 Wins
2005 - 5 wins
2006 - 9 wins
2007 - 14 wins
2008 - Flag

One would suggest that had they gone the rebuild earlier then it would have been a shorter stint out of the finals. Once they bottomed out 2004 it took them 4 years to get a flag....


Richmond's recruiting under Wallace was hopeless, would be better to look at Richmond since Dimma took over.

Melbourne deliberately went out to get draft picks. The culture of losing became apart of the team unfortunately. However you look at the talent they do have and they if molded properly will be very dangerous. They actually dont have a bad backline or forwardline, its the midfield that they lack in drastically.

Everyone just fails to realise our lack of recruits for 5 years and get examples that somehow prove we will come back up quickly. Hawthorn got a priorty pick. We may not get one. Lions have made the finals once in 10 years. carlton missed out for 7 years. BHoth those are good examples why ours will take a long time. the difference between us and Brisbane is they won flags but after that it is very similar to us. they still had old stars but bugger youth due to sustained success. Carlton got banned from the early draft picks. we havent be banned even though you would think we were. Those years of poor recruiting will set us back a fair few years IMo of course. hope to be proved wrong.

[Old Mate]

There are many cases of rebuilds taking anywhere from 4-8 years. It depends on development, taking your opportunities in the draft and trade period and a little luck. Look at Port Adelaide for example. Grand Final in 07, finals 08 then in the wilderness for four years...And now a good chance of playing finals in 2013. We've also seen the Swans, Hawks and WCE have quick turnarounds in form. Then there are the Blues, Tigers, Lions and Demons who have been down and out for close to a decade. The point is I wouldn't be putting a timeframe like 8 years or 4 years on our rebuild. We could be playing finals by 2015 or 2020. Lets see how good (or bad) Pelchen is.

[spert]

We haven't got eight years to wait, and we haven't got the resources to exist in the wilderness- if we keep falling behind, I doubt if the club will survive. We really have nothing to build on and as a far as I'm concerned- we practically start from scratch at the end of this season. We will need to do an element of quick fixes unfortunately or we'll be gone.

Seriously?

I'm a long term Sainter, seen the club almost go to the wall in the bad days..Yes I'm serious. I would suggest that if we don't at least hit the bottom of the eight by 2015, then in this current environment, the AFL will be putting pressure on lesser resourced clubs to merge and/or move.

[markp]

It's just Terry trying to find a way to take credit for where the tigers finally seem to be at.

He coincidentally started as coach there 8 years ago.

They really should be thanking him.

[Richter]

I agree with you Tony. I'm thinking that WAAAAY too many of us are too willing to buy into us entering another 1998-2002 period. What is required at the present moment is not a "sack the coach" "spill the board" call from the members, but rather, cool heads and strong nerve as we go through a rebuild. There are SOOOOO many 'experts" who are ranting and raving about Lyon's recruiting/drafting now, who were conspicuous by their absence while Lyon was being successful on the field.

Of course we are entering a 1998-2002 period. That is obvious.

Why do we think we are enetering 1998-2002?
I would have thought we are at least half way through the period.

In terms of on the park we are around 1999 (finished 10th) to 2000 (finished last).
If we follow that example we would expect to be in the bottom 3 this year (2000), next year (2001) and in 2015 (2002) before we see a turn around.

What can be different though is off-field. Hopefully Watters can lead a development phase of the club. I hope that he proves to be a good enough coach to oversee a turn around but we certainly need to be patient. All other things being equal I would give him until early 2016 to see some signs of improvement. And I expect that we won't win over 5 games any of the next 3 years including plenty more 10-goal+ losses unfortunately. OTOH with these players to come back - Hayes, Milne, Fisher, Gilbert - we may even show something at the start of next year.... but I won't be holding my breath.

[maverick]

It's just Terry trying to find a way to take credit for where the tigers finally seem to be at.

He coincidentally started as coach there 8 years ago.

They really should be thanking him.

Ha ha so true

[thejiggingsaint]

As I say, Sydney dodged a bullet...BUT BIGTIME! I reckon Terry Wallace is an interesting commentator at times but did not a great deal as a coach. If you want an illustration of his character watch the doco "Year of the Dogs" and see how he white-anted Alan Joyce

[gringo]

I think maverick is pretty on the money. Why does anyone need to prove anything to you Plugger for simply giving an opinion. Why don't you justify the crap you post. It's an opinion too not a scientific formula.

I think Paul Roos would be the next Blighty by the way- couldn't give a s*** about footy anymore and would only do it for the money. Out of touch now and a game plan that was revolutionary in the early 2000s. Would be a disaster, I think Rocket Eade is probably the best of the current ex seniors and then Choco.

IMO the difference is that under Blight we sacked so many good players and then followed up under Watson sacking the rest of our middle core. We did the full list cull and rebuild from zero. I don't think we will go beyond transitional rebuild under Watters.

We are artificially down on what we probably should have been with a full list to choose from. We really have only had Roberton play every game in defence and the only of our older senior players to play every game are Roo and Dal who is down on his usual output. Not as gloomy as it all sounds. We would have been a lot more motivated had a few of our close loses gone the other way.

[plugger66]

I think maverick is pretty on the money. Why does anyone need to prove anything to you Plugger for simply giving an opinion. Why don't you justify the crap you post. It's an opinion too not a scientific formula.

I think Paul Roos would be the next Blighty by the way- couldn't give a s*** about footy anymore and would only do it for the money. Out of touch now and a game plan that was revolutionary in the early 2000s. Would be a disaster, I think Rocket Eade is probably the best of the current ex seniors and then Choco.

IMO the difference is that under Blight we sacked so many good players and then followed up under Watson sacking the rest of our middle core. We did the full list cull and rebuild from zero. I don't think we will go beyond transitional rebuild under Watters.

We are artificially down on what we probably should have been with a full list to choose from. We really have only had Roberton play every game in defence and the only of our older senior players to play every game are Roo and Dal who is down on his usual output. Not as gloomy as it all sounds. We would have been a lot more motivated had a few of our close loses gone the other way.

You really are brain dead which is fine for us but it must worry your family. I respect Maverick's opinion because he actually thinks before he posts. Something you could learn from. And i gave plenty of reasons why i think as I do. maybe they went over your head. How about you tell us something for a change instead of just saying this player will be good and Roos will only do it for the money. Why occasionally would be nice. I bet you were a person who had us top 6 this year because you follow the saints. great to be positive but occasionally you actually need to see what is really happening. Now run away. you really are a bit simple.

[gringo]

I think maverick is pretty on the money. Why does anyone need to prove anything to you Plugger for simply giving an opinion. Why don't you justify the crap you post. It's an opinion too not a scientific formula.

I think Paul Roos would be the next Blighty by the way- couldn't give a s*** about footy anymore and would only do it for the money. Out of touch now and a game plan that was revolutionary in the early 2000s. Would be a disaster, I think Rocket Eade is probably the best of the current ex seniors and then Choco.

IMO the difference is that under Blight we sacked so many good players and then followed up under Watson sacking the rest of our middle core. We did the full list cull and rebuild from zero. I don't think we will go beyond transitional rebuild under Watters.

We are artificially down on what we probably should have been with a full list to choose from. We really have only had Roberton play every game in defence and the only of our older senior players to play every game are Roo and Dal who is down on his usual output. Not as gloomy as it all sounds. We would have been a lot more motivated had a few of our close loses gone the other way.

You really are brain dead which is fine for us but it must worry your family. I respect Maverick's opinion because he actually thinks before he posts. Something you could learn from. And i gave plenty of reasons why i think as I do. maybe they went over your head. How about you tell us something for a change instead of just saying this player will be good and Roos will only do it for the money. Why occasionally would be nice. I bet you were a person who had us top 6 this year because you follow the saints. great to be positive but occasionally you actually need to see what is really happening. Now run away. you really are a bit simple.

That's funny old fella, you made some inane justifications that made it look like you considered the crap you write- that doesn't count. I had us finishing from best case 8 to 14worst case I think but I suggested needing an injury free run and to win the close ones. I always said that this was going to be a super close season. Just because you want us down so you can feel like a hard core fan doesn't make you right.