Watters is a very poor coach!

[Devilhead]

Didn't Bomber coach Geelong to a Prelim in his 3/4th season and then again after that??

His early days as coach were mirrored by GT .....

Went well.... Stumbled.... Dominated

More to do with PEPTIDES than anything else

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

EFA

[Wayne42]

What is EFA ?

[Cairnsman]

I have no idea why you only quote me. Are you fascinated by me. Sorry i have that opinion. I suppose i could be like you and only quote others opinions. RL is a better coach than SW at the moment and you would expect that. If he wasnt either SW would be one of the best 2nd year coaches ever or RL should not be employed. Now think for yourself or quote others who have said RL is a great or very good coach. Pretty sure JB would be agreeing with me at the moment. maybe wrong. may not. I am flattered that you only quote me but i do like people who can think for themself.

I am quoting you because I am fascinated. Fascinated that you are confused by the coaches team selections and game plan. I'm trying to understand why because it seams to contradict your normal MO. One theory I have is that it is because you are a self confessed expert and another one is because you big noted yourself recently that a friend of a friend told your Dad that an ex player from the eighties said that he'd heard that the players weren't happy with SW and since then you seem to be critical of SW.

You are one strange guy. Big noted myself. if wanted to big note myself i reckon I could come up with something a bit better than that. And even what said about that is completely wrong. I do like your consistancy. And i am not critical of SW. How many times do i have to say I dont have a real opinion on how he is going whether good or bad yet because its a bit early. made some mistakes IMo like any second year coach would do. What fascinates me is you seem obsessed with how I feel about SW or RL but then say coaches dont matter. No wonder some are confused with you.

Now just a couple of questions. Simple so should be easily answered. Would you rather SW or Neeld as our coach? And who is coaching better this year, SW or RL? pretty simple questions and you only need to have a simple answer.

I only have to go back through this thread to find examples of where you were critical of SW so not sure who is the strange one. Ok to answer your question SW is coaching much better than RL in regards to developing players and an AFL list and RL is doing much better at coaching a list that is almost fully developed. To use your logic I'm not sure how SW would go if he was given the lists RL was given and how will we ever know unless he is given that opportunity. I was going to use mathematics to answer your question but I've tried to follow your application of percentages and I don't think you would understand proper mathematic.

[Spinner]

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Fremantle last year was not a ready made finals team.

Where is this stuff coming from?

[joffaboy]

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Fremantle last year was not a ready made finals team.

Where is this stuff coming from?

yes they fkn were

Fair dinkum, some of you people have the memory of a goldfish.

Lyon took a team in 2007 developed by Thomas took a year to get the gameplan embedded and away it went.

Lyon took the Dockers developed by Harvey, took a year to get the gameplan embedded and away it went.

Both lists were finals ready, had a core of players in the mid 20's with 50-150 games, had match winning champions.

if you cant see the similarities you really have no idea.

[thejiggingsaint]

can't disagree with that

[Sainternist]

All this coming from a guy who calls himself "WinnersOnly" and is from Canberra. Spare me.

[gringo]

Mark Harvey was at one point looking at not being able to field 22 players because of injury. He had a magnificent developing list- my mates are Freo supporters
i heard all about it over and over.

[BigMart]

Incorrect IMO.... Freo was an under performing list.... It's probably because their previous coach was very poor.... Or because of injury.. Not sure

I think good coaches can maximise their talent.... But ultimately you need to have the cattle...


Mundy, Barlow, Fyfe, Pavlich, Crowley, Johnson, Mayne, McPharlin, Balantyne, Hill.... Not a terrible group

Lyon does have a game plan that will always be hard to beat, and frustrate opposition..... They are methodical

[ShanghaiSaint]

agree BM RL has reinvented a few outsiders on the list as he did at the saints. this year he is really getting the best out of the team by playing roles... without RL at the helm I can promise anyone Freo wouldn't be 3rd right now.

past is the past but all i can say is RL is a good coach... (1 trick pony but good)

[Greg T]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

What players do you think have improved under SW?
IMO some have not progressed!

[Greg T]

agree BM RL has reinvented a few outsiders on the list as he did at the saints. this year he is really getting the best out of the team by playing roles... without RL at the helm I can promise anyone Freo wouldn't be 3rd right now.

past is the past but all i can say is RL is a good coach... (1 trick pony but good)

Good post,still gets his sides to strangle the opp.
Not often Nth kicks 4 goals

[Cairnsman]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

What players do you think have improved under SW?
IMO some have not progressed!

For Starters and just going on subjective observations:

Roo
Ben
Jack
Armo
Rhys

Would be interested to know if there are stats to back the above up or prove it the other way.

[plugger66]

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Fremantle last year was not a ready made finals team.

Where is this stuff coming from?

yes they fkn were

Fair dinkum, some of you people have the memory of a goldfish.

Lyon took a team in 2007 developed by Thomas took a year to get the gameplan embedded and away it went.

Lyon took the Dockers developed by Harvey, took a year to get the gameplan embedded and away it went.

Both lists were finals ready, had a core of players in the mid 20's with 50-150 games, had match winning champions.

if you cant see the similarities you really have no idea.

If coaches arent that important why worry about game plans. Seems a waste of a year. Anyway freo werent near as ready to go as us when RL took over. Just look at where they had finished the previous few years. maybe Harvey couldnt coach but that again would suggest coaches are important. And look at this year. Injuries to their real key players and still in the top 4. make no mistake coaches need the players but nearly just as important is players need a coach who understands a great game plan. And that is all I have been saying all along.

[Johnny Member]

Anyone else think that Fyfe is the best players in the comp?

[SainterK]

Yes agree about Fyfe, and agree with JB (so painful) that Ross had time to assess the list before realising it was best for his win loss.

Clever yet unsavoury decision.

Freo had one of the worst injury runs in Harvey's last year.

[markp]

Well of course he assessed their list.

I think he could see there was little love for him from the board/admin (and vica versa), and he didn't like his chances of surviving the inevitable dip that comes with a rebuild.

[joffaboy]

If coaches arent that important why worry about game plans. Seems a waste of a year. Anyway freo werent near as ready to go as us when RL took over.

Of course they were. had been in the finals two years previously, then had a shocking injury run in 2011.

We had played finals three years in a row, but was going backwards in 2006 after three shocking years of injury.

We missed out in 2007 under Lyon wheile he repaired the list physically. Luckily got to the top four in 2008 and got flogged by Hawthorn and Geelong, then exploded in 2009.

Freo after one year under Lyon are actually further ahead then we were in lyons second year. They are third with their superstars out.

Freo were almost exactly the same as the Saints in 2007 when Lyon took over.

And who said coaches aren't that important. A good coach with a good list will do wonders. A good coach with a poor list cant do much. To be a premiership threat, you need the players, but you also need a good coach.

[Cairnsman]

If coaches arent that important why worry about game plans. Seems a waste of a year. Anyway freo werent near as ready to go as us when RL took over.

Of course they were. had been in the finals two years previously, then had a shocking injury run in 2011.

We had played finals three years in a row, but was going backwards in 2006 after three shocking years of injury.

We missed out in 2007 under Lyon wheile he repaired the list physically. Luckily got to the top four in 2008 and got flogged by Hawthorn and Geelong, then exploded in 2009.

Freo after one year under Lyon are actually further ahead then we were in lyons second year. They are third with their superstars out.

Freo were almost exactly the same as the Saints in 2007 when Lyon took over.

And who said coaches aren't that important. A good coach with a good list will do wonders. A good coach with a poor list cant do much. To be a premiership threat, you need the players, but you also need a good coach.

Yeah but coaches make a difference, which I agree but I'm still confused why we have players on our list that have improved since SW took over but people are finding it difficult to give him credit for that and rather be critical of team selections and game day plans which just doesn't make sense to me.

And you could argue that Freo haven't really been tested this year. They've had a pretty easy run really and this week at Geelong should test them.

[SainterK]

Players that have improved.

Geary, Dempster, Steven, Armitage, Gilbert (greatly improved on previous years) Wright Webster Ross

It's worth noting some of the kids wouldn't of got a game until around 2014-2015

[SaintPav]

Can't compare Ross Liarn to SW as Liarn is in his seventh season as a senior coach. Liarn was also a much more experineced assistant that SW as he was in the system for over 10 years before he began in 07 and worked under Walls, Pagan and Roos. Watters was only an assistant for two years under MM.

If you're going to compare the two, compare Watters now to Liarn in 2008. We had a better list back then though and RL is a much better coach now than he was in 08. Watters will no doubt improve and will be a much better coach in two years than he is now.

[Cairnsman]

Players that have improved.

Geary, Dempster, Steven, Armitage, Gilbert (greatly improved on previous years) Wright Webster Ross

It's worth noting some of the kids wouldn't of got a game until around 2014-2015

This is my point and that is why I am perplexed by the OP of this thread others like it. Coaches should be judged in the context of where their club is positioned in the equalisation cycle and it's a damn shame that that good coaches get axed prematurely on win/loss ratio. IMO it is such an out dated way of managing a club and belongs to a period before the AFL introduced equalisation.

I reckon SW is doing an enormous job at the moment and it would appear that there are many experts in the industry that think he is too.

Sainter K I add senior players like Roo and Ben to the list you've mentioned and I also think every young player that has come into the team and had an immediate impact should also be considered player improvement and credit for that has to surely be with SW...because they make a difference.

Cue the team selection and game plan critics...

[Con Gorozidis]

Based on the theory that a footy players prime is played between 50-150 game marks and 22-28yo and that makes the core of a list... then:

Freo have 15 and we have 7 core players on our list.

Ballantyne
Ibbotson
Fyfe
Suban
De Boer
Griffin
Mzungu
Crowley
Barlow
Dawson
Mayne
Bradley
Pearce
Duffield
Hill

v
macca
armo
steven
geary
gwilt
ray
gilbo

make up your own minds about the relative quality of the lists

[joffaboy]

Players that have improved.

Wright Webster Ross

How do we know with these three? Is their first season.

Players who have stayed the same - Newness, Steven, Mac

Gone backwards - Sipposs, Saad, Milera, Maister

IMO of course

[SainterK]

Players that have improved.

Wright Webster Ross

How do we know with these three? Is their first season.

Players who have stayed the same - Newness, Steven, Mac

Gone backwards - Sipposs, Saad, Milera, Maister

IMO of course

That's the point, how do you know they would of played if Ross had stayed?

They are a credit to Scott in the sense of his trusting a young guy who hasn't had the '4 year apprenticeship' that Ross was partial to.

Steven would be tracking in the top 5 of the B&F right now, completely disagree he has stayed the same.

Newnes is consistently improving also.