Watters is a very poor coach!

[Johnny Member]

What you need to remember, is that we were never fluent with our forward movement.

Even when winning throughout the year, we often looked rushed and clumsy.


So to arrive on Grand Final day and suddenly squander chances, was not shock and horror situation. It was really par for the course for most games.

The big difference was that when Lyon ran out of ideas and told them to 'bomb it long' we didn't have Roo win it off his own boot like he did for most of the year and for the finals series.

[plugger66]

What you need to remember, is that we were never fluent with our forward movement.

Even when winning throughout the year, we often looked rushed and clumsy.


So to arrive on Grand Final day and suddenly squander chances, was not shock and horror situation. It was really par for the course for most games.

The big difference was that when Lyon ran out of ideas and told them to 'bomb it long' we didn't have Roo win it off his own boot like he did for most of the year and for the finals series.

What you need to remember is you say we were lucky to be within a score of the pies because of poor kicking but you dont acknowledge the same for the previous year. you come up with this rubbish. We looked rushed and clumsy throughout the year when we won 19 in a row. yep pull the other one. It plays Jingle bells.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Yeah any chump could've coached us to consecutive GF's and within a kick of a flag on each occasion.

I recently watched a couple of games from the thomas era .
We had a great side , the only thing we lacked was the ability to stop good sides scoring against us ! Lyon gave us that ability but we in turn lost our ability to score freely .

Interesting to speculate how far we would have got if GT had coached beyond 2006. Remembering that we probably should have finished Top 4 in 2006 (the Sirengate match cost us) and our only final against Melbourne had us playing with 16 fit men.

We would have had continuity in our game plan going into 2007. We would have had a more attacking style. On the other hand, we wouldn't have had Milne. We would have had a more punishing draw (the AFL fixing us up for retaining GT.) As for recruiting, who can say? On balance, though, I suspect we would have made a GF or two anyway. And without RL's obsession with role-playing mediocrities, we probably would have won.

[plugger66]

Yeah any chump could've coached us to consecutive GF's and within a kick of a flag on each occasion.

I recently watched a couple of games from the thomas era .
We had a great side , the only thing we lacked was the ability to stop good sides scoring against us ! Lyon gave us that ability but we in turn lost our ability to score freely .

Interesting to speculate how far we would have got if GT had coached beyond 2006. Remembering that we probably should have finished Top 4 in 2006 (the Sirengate match cost us) and our only final against Melbourne had us playing with 16 fit men.

We would have had continuity in our game plan going into 2007. We would have had a more attacking style. On the other hand, we wouldn't have had Milne. We would have had a more punishing draw (the AFL fixing us up for retaining GT.) As for recruiting, who can say? On balance, though, I suspect we would have made a GF or two anyway. And without RL's obsession with role-playing mediocrities, we probably would have won.

I doubt it but each to there own. I was a GT fan and he was very unlucky with injuries but his side on paper was a 10 goal better side than any RL had. RL was a much better coach than GT.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think this thread sums up my point of view.

Anyone who bags SW is still mentally stuck in 2009/2010.

We need to judge SW on the current list in a realistic manner - not the names on the list in their 2009/2010 form.

[Cairnsman]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

[Bluthy]

I've always thought the best coaches have a real fatherly vibe going on with their players. They are strict but have a real connection with their players to help them grow into their potential and develop confidence in themselves so they can be leaders on the field. I never got that vibe with Lyon. He seemed too obsessed with the "system" to let the players develop in an individual way. Lyon's fantasy would be to be coaching a team of programmable robots.

I've been impressed by how much Watters is building a real strong club feel in extremely difficult circumstances. What I've picked up from his trading so far is the he wants to build a BIG list, very even across the board, with multiple players competing for all spots in the 22 (unlike Lyons average bottom 6). HE's got the rucks and forwards (who take the longest to develop) now he'll go for mids and defenders.

Remember it took Mark Thompson 8 years to develop tactically along side his list so give Scotty some time. Coaches need to develop just like players. Brereton reckons Watters has a brilliant footy brain apparently. But Watters man management skills are what is making me very optimistic. The young players look like they enjoy being at the club and are developing nicely. I like what he is doing with the list.

The clubs that win premierships are more than just a good 22 players playing a system. They have a strength and courage to be brave in big moments that comes from being part of a club that they love to be at and that believes in them. The sum becomes greater than the parts. I think Watters can get St Kilda there. But it will take time. We need to be patient.

[plugger66]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

Maybe maybe not. How would any other of us know? All I caqn go by is what I see on the ground and at selection. One week 4 smalls, the next 2. confusing.

[Cairnsman]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

Maybe maybe not. How would any other of us know? All I caqn go by is what I see on the ground and at selection. One week 4 smalls, the next 2. confusing.

I don't mean to be rude but couldn't it be that that is more about your level of knowledge and understanding about how a modern AFL coach approaches things at a club like the Saints.

With regards to knowing if a player has improved couldn't you look to some basic stats?

[plugger66]

I thought this thread was about SW. I'd like to hear an explanation from P66 why players that seem to have improved since SW has been coach would have improved anyway. Is it not possible that SW should be given some credit for the improvement?

Maybe maybe not. How would any other of us know? All I caqn go by is what I see on the ground and at selection. One week 4 smalls, the next 2. confusing.

I don't mean to be rude but couldn't it be that that is more about your level of knowledge and understanding about how a modern AFL coach approaches things at a club like the Saints.

With regards to knowing if a player has improved couldn't you look to some basic stats?

I think I understand the modern game pretty well and I would suggest if 4 smalls was the go it would have happened more than once. And i can see players who have improved. You must read what is written instead of guessing though. i said i have no idea if it is due to the coach or not. Im guessing none of us know. Most players improve with age otherwise an under 18 side could beat a senoir side. it isnt to hard for most to understand.

[BigMart]

Why are hypothecate or what ifs used to defend Lyons record as a coach..... Fact is, he haven't won a flag... Simple as that...

I think he is tactically brilliant, but pig headed and inflexible and obviously doesn't put faith in those he doesn't trust (young players) which doesn't develop player

He is a great team coach... An average individual player developer...

He doesn't win this year or next.... He has gone 10 years without winning a premiership... Very few have done that, Neale Daniher perhaps

[Cairnsman]

Maybe maybe not. How would any other of us know? All I caqn go by is what I see on the ground and at selection. One week 4 smalls, the next 2. confusing.

I don't mean to be rude but couldn't it be that that is more about your level of knowledge and understanding about how a modern AFL coach approaches things at a club like the Saints.

With regards to knowing if a player has improved couldn't you look to some basic stats?

I think I understand the modern game pretty well and I would suggest if 4 smalls was the go it would have happened more than once. And i can see players who have improved. You must read what is written instead of guessing though. i said i have no idea if it is due to the coach or not. Im guessing none of us know. Most players improve with age otherwise an under 18 side could beat a senoir side. it isnt to hard for most to understand.

Yes you probably do understand the modern game but your focus seems to be limited to selections and game day plans so surely you understand that there is a whole lot more to it than that small window. Maybe not. And so based on your logic that would mean that the improvement at Freo has been purely due to RLs selections and game plan and that any players at Freo that have improved probably would have improved anyway.

[plugger66]

You also failed maths at school. Its amazing what lies people will tell to try and improve their position. Even making things up like pig headed and inflexible. none of us would know that on here especially you who hasnt any contacts within the club.

[plugger66]

I don't mean to be rude but couldn't it be that that is more about your level of knowledge and understanding about how a modern AFL coach approaches things at a club like the Saints.

With regards to knowing if a player has improved couldn't you look to some basic stats?

I think I understand the modern game pretty well and I would suggest if 4 smalls was the go it would have happened more than once. And i can see players who have improved. You must read what is written instead of guessing though. i said i have no idea if it is due to the coach or not. Im guessing none of us know. Most players improve with age otherwise an under 18 side could beat a senoir side. it isnt to hard for most to understand.

Yes you probably do understand the modern game but your focus seems to be limited to selections and game day plans so surely you understand that there is a whole lot more to it than that small window. Maybe not. And so based on your logic that would mean that the improvement at Freo has been purely due to RLs selections and game plan and that any players at Freo that have improved probably would have improved anyway.

Again I dont know that because i arent in the club but I can see selections and game plans. Surely you get that. Anyway i still dont get why keep on about this. this started because I said coaches can make a difference. Surely 99% of people would agree with that. If you want me to comment on SW well I have. i have said it is to early to say whether he is a good coach or not. It isnt to early to say that about RL or MM or KS.

[Con Gorozidis]

Why are hypothecate or what ifs used to defend Lyons record as a coach..... Fact is, he haven't won a flag... Simple as that...

I think he is tactically brilliant, but pig headed and inflexible and obviously doesn't put faith in those he doesn't trust (young players) which doesn't develop player

He is a great team coach... An average individual player developer...

He doesn't win this year or next.... He has gone 10 years without winning a premiership... Very few have done that, Neale Daniher perhaps

Rocket Eade?

[Verdun66]

I've always thought the best coaches have a real fatherly vibe going on with their players. They are strict but have a real connection with their players to help them grow into their potential and develop confidence in themselves so they can be leaders on the field. I never got that vibe with Lyon. He seemed too obsessed with the "system" to let the players develop in an individual way. Lyon's fantasy would be to be coaching a team of programmable robots.

I've been impressed by how much Watters is building a real strong club feel in extremely difficult circumstances. What I've picked up from his trading so far is the he wants to build a BIG list, very even across the board, with multiple players competing for all spots in the 22 (unlike Lyons average bottom 6). HE's got the rucks and forwards (who take the longest to develop) now he'll go for mids and defenders.

Remember it took Mark Thompson 8 years to develop tactically along side his list so give Scotty some time. Coaches need to develop just like players. Brereton reckons Watters has a brilliant footy brain apparently. But Watters man management skills are what is making me very optimistic. The young players look like they enjoy being at the club and are developing nicely. I like what he is doing with the list.

The clubs that win premierships are more than just a good 22 players playing a system. They have a strength and courage to be brave in big moments that comes from being part of a club that they love to be at and that believes in them. The sum becomes greater than the parts. I think Watters can get St Kilda there. But it will take time. We need to be patient.

Where is the 'Like' button for this post? Spot on in my view.

[BigMart]

Didn't Bomber coach Geelong to a Prelim in his 3/4th season and then again after that??

His early days as coach were mirrored by GT .....

Went well.... Stumbled.... Dominated

More to do with player group than anything else

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

[Cairnsman]

I've always thought the best coaches have a real fatherly vibe going on with their players. They are strict but have a real connection with their players to help them grow into their potential and develop confidence in themselves so they can be leaders on the field. I never got that vibe with Lyon. He seemed too obsessed with the "system" to let the players develop in an individual way. Lyon's fantasy would be to be coaching a team of programmable robots.

I've been impressed by how much Watters is building a real strong club feel in extremely difficult circumstances. What I've picked up from his trading so far is the he wants to build a BIG list, very even across the board, with multiple players competing for all spots in the 22 (unlike Lyons average bottom 6). HE's got the rucks and forwards (who take the longest to develop) now he'll go for mids and defenders.

Remember it took Mark Thompson 8 years to develop tactically along side his list so give Scotty some time. Coaches need to develop just like players. Brereton reckons Watters has a brilliant footy brain apparently. But Watters man management skills are what is making me very optimistic. The young players look like they enjoy being at the club and are developing nicely. I like what he is doing with the list.

The clubs that win premierships are more than just a good 22 players playing a system. They have a strength and courage to be brave in big moments that comes from being part of a club that they love to be at and that believes in them. The sum becomes greater than the parts. I think Watters can get St Kilda there. But it will take time. We need to be patient.

Where is the 'Like' button for this post? Spot on in my view.

Yep I'm hitting the like button on this too. It's just a shame that SW hasn't been perfect from the get-go and has made team selections and game plans that are confusing to experts.

[Verdun66]

When you have a bunch of new or developing players, you have to try a few things out. I'm sure they have hunches after seeing how players train, and decide on a position for a player or strategy for the team. But in the heat of a real game, some come off, some don't. Only way to find out is try it. They are really in uncharted territory.

When they don't come off, it looks strange. But the one's that do look like genius. Just too many on the 'Strange' side of the ledger at the moment.

[joffaboy]

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

[Cairnsman]

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Yeah but apparently coaches make a difference even if they don't have a list capable of making a difference and apparently our coach is only going at 50% and Ross Lyon is going at 80% I wish I was better at maths so I could understand that.

[plugger66]

Coaches don't necessarily win premierships...it's Players have more of a say in that!

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Yeah but apparently coaches make a difference even if they don't have a list capable of making a difference and apparently our coach is only going at 50% and Ross Lyon is going at 80% I wish I was better at maths so I could understand that.

I have no idea why you only quote me. Are you fascinated by me. Sorry i have that opinion. I suppose i could be like you and only quote others opinions. RL is a better coach than SW at the moment and you would expect that. If he wasnt either SW would be one of the best 2nd year coaches ever or RL should not be employed. Now think for yourself or quote others who have said RL is a great or very good coach. Pretty sure JB would be agreeing with me at the moment. maybe wrong. may not. I am flattered that you only quote me but i do like people who can think for themself.

[Cairnsman]

Pagan at North and Pagan at Carlton would indicate this.......

Many other examples as well.

The list maketh the coach.

Lyon has had two finals ready lists handed to him.

He looks good with good lists. He, like any other coach would look ordinary with an ordinary list.

Yeah but apparently coaches make a difference even if they don't have a list capable of making a difference and apparently our coach is only going at 50% and Ross Lyon is going at 80% I wish I was better at maths so I could understand that.

I have no idea why you only quote me. Are you fascinated by me. Sorry i have that opinion. I suppose i could be like you and only quote others opinions. RL is a better coach than SW at the moment and you would expect that. If he wasnt either SW would be one of the best 2nd year coaches ever or RL should not be employed. Now think for yourself or quote others who have said RL is a great or very good coach. Pretty sure JB would be agreeing with me at the moment. maybe wrong. may not. I am flattered that you only quote me but i do like people who can think for themself.

I am quoting you because I am fascinated. Fascinated that you are confused by the coaches team selections and game plan. I'm trying to understand why because it seams to contradict your normal MO. One theory I have is that it is because you are a self confessed expert and another one is because you big noted yourself recently that a friend of a friend told your Dad that an ex player from the eighties said that he'd heard that the players weren't happy with SW and since then you seem to be critical of SW.

[SaintPav]

Again I dont know that because i arent in the club but I can see selections and game plans. Surely you get that. Anyway i still dont get why keep on about this. this started because I said coaches can make a difference. Surely 99% of people would agree with that. If you want me to comment on SW well I have. i have said it is to early to say whether he is a good coach or not. It isnt to early to say that about RL or MM or KS.

You should ask Finey what he thinks of Freo's list. Half way through last year he thought it was a very ordinary list. They have turned it around since then.

All Freo have to do is get two home finals.

[plugger66]

Yeah but apparently coaches make a difference even if they don't have a list capable of making a difference and apparently our coach is only going at 50% and Ross Lyon is going at 80% I wish I was better at maths so I could understand that.

I have no idea why you only quote me. Are you fascinated by me. Sorry i have that opinion. I suppose i could be like you and only quote others opinions. RL is a better coach than SW at the moment and you would expect that. If he wasnt either SW would be one of the best 2nd year coaches ever or RL should not be employed. Now think for yourself or quote others who have said RL is a great or very good coach. Pretty sure JB would be agreeing with me at the moment. maybe wrong. may not. I am flattered that you only quote me but i do like people who can think for themself.

I am quoting you because I am fascinated. Fascinated that you are confused by the coaches team selections and game plan. I'm trying to understand why because it seams to contradict your normal MO. One theory I have is that it is because you are a self confessed expert and another one is because you big noted yourself recently that a friend of a friend told your Dad that an ex player from the eighties said that he'd heard that the players weren't happy with SW and since then you seem to be critical of SW.

You are one strange guy. Big noted myself. if wanted to big note myself i reckon I could come up with something a bit better than that. And even what said about that is completely wrong. I do like your consistancy. And i am not critical of SW. How many times do i have to say I dont have a real opinion on how he is going whether good or bad yet because its a bit early. made some mistakes IMo like any second year coach would do. What fascinates me is you seem obsessed with how I feel about SW or RL but then say coaches dont matter. No wonder some are confused with you.

Now just a couple of questions. Simple so should be easily answered. Would you rather SW or Neeld as our coach? And who is coaching better this year, SW or RL? pretty simple questions and you only need to have a simple answer.