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Is a loss a loss. melbourne are losing by a huge averages. he wouldnt let that happen. Obviously thinking beyond wins and losses isnt a strong point with you. I suppose you think we played just as badly against North as WCE because we lost both. neeld was sacked because they werent competitve. My guess is he wouldnt have been sacked if they were just losing. Stop it now. coaches can improve sides as can players but to just say it is players proves they dont actually watch or understand the game.
P66 point is proven CM.... just look at Freo he has turned that rabble around and now they're top 3, with major outs atm. the .RL game plan is proof (soild proof of what P66 is saying)
Rabble?
They finished 6th and won a final in 2010 before having an injury plagued bad year in 2011. Hardly rabble. Always huge upside as shown in 2010.
Johnny Member wrote:7 years in coaching is a long time without success, and 8-9 years is even longer! If he doesn't win the flag in the next year or two - then he'll be considered a big failure like hundreds before him.
But not so big a failure as those many coaches who never even got to the finals, or the majority who never coached in even one Grand Final.
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
People seem to compare coaches, as a guide to how good they are. Whereas in my opinion, coaches should be measured on their own performance. So just because Lyon has made coached two GF teams, does not make him great because that's a better record than dozens of other coaches.
Just because Lyon had a better record than lots of other coaches, does not mean he's great.
It's entirely irrelevant what his record is like compared to most other coaches, and his standing shouldn't be judged on how bad some other coaches have been.
In my view, he's a good coach with very big question marks over his game plan and his nerve in big games.
Inherits a dreadfully inadequate and unbalanced list and some older war horses who have climbed the mountain are on the way the down.
Walks into a milney debacle from 9 years ago.
As JM pointed out - those romanticising about Lyon - Freo finished 6th and won a final in 2010. They were ripe for the picking for a coach.
Johnny Member wrote:7 years in coaching is a long time without success, and 8-9 years is even longer! If he doesn't win the flag in the next year or two - then he'll be considered a big failure like hundreds before him.
But not so big a failure as those many coaches who never even got to the finals, or the majority who never coached in even one Grand Final.
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
People seem to compare coaches, as a guide to how good they are. Whereas in my opinion, coaches should be measured on their own performance. So just because Lyon has made coached two GF teams, does not make him great because that's a better record than dozens of other coaches.
Just because Lyon had a better record than lots of other coaches, does not mean he's great.
It's entirely irrelevant what his record is like compared to most other coaches, and his standing shouldn't be judged on how bad some other coaches have been.
In my view, he's a good coach with very big question marks over his game plan and his nerve in big games.
The one thing he doesnt have is question marks over his game plan. he has clearly the best game plan in the AFL as shown by how freo are going with all their injuries. The only question mark is how he will leave the list at freo but like us if they win a flag they wont give a tuff as they havent won one yet. if they dont win a flag those who thought Rl a great coach at the time will soon change their mind and tell us he was overated. I still laugh when people are upset how he left our list. You could see it happening as early as 2008 and no one complained. matter of fact i reckon no one knocked him until the last couple of weeks in 2011. Blind freddy could see our list was on the slide well before that. it was worth it though for a side who has one flag in 115 years.
Con Gorozidis wrote:In my opinion SW deserves a medal.
Inherits a dreadfully inadequate and unbalanced list and some older war horses who have climbed the mountain are on the way the down.
Walks into a milney debacle from 9 years ago.
As JM pointed out - those romanticising about Lyon - Freo finished 6th and won a final in 2010. They were ripe for the picking for a coach.
Con tell us why he deserves a medal at the moment. it cant be for playing young guys. He had no choice. it cant be for game day coaching. he hasnt shown a lot there yet. So con tell us why he gets a medal. i have no idea if SW can coach or not yet. i havent seem much to say either way. If anything Id say he is going at just under 50% due to some selection issues this season IMO of course. RL is going at about 80% this season. Glad he isnt our coach now though.
Johnny Member wrote:7 years in coaching is a long time without success, and 8-9 years is even longer! If he doesn't win the flag in the next year or two - then he'll be considered a big failure like hundreds before him.
But not so big a failure as those many coaches who never even got to the finals, or the majority who never coached in even one Grand Final.
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
People seem to compare coaches, as a guide to how good they are. Whereas in my opinion, coaches should be measured on their own performance. So just because Lyon has made coached two GF teams, does not make him great because that's a better record than dozens of other coaches.
Just because Lyon had a better record than lots of other coaches, does not mean he's great.
It's entirely irrelevant what his record is like compared to most other coaches, and his standing shouldn't be judged on how bad some other coaches have been.
In my view, he's a good coach with very big question marks over his game plan and his nerve in big games.
Yes he does have question marks and him and the Freo club are setting about trying to remove them but what surprises me is the question marks that have been put over SW this early into his coaching career and even by some who I consider to be fairly astute in the matter. To my way of thinking SW and coaches should be judged on more than just win/loss ratio and GF wins. Where the club is at in the equalisation cycle should come into it and what the prime focus of the club and coach is in relation to where they are in that cycle and also they should be judged in terms of what results they are achieving in relation to the players and resources they have at their disposal. Mark Neeld was employed in a very amateurish way and was not supported well especially considering the club should have also had a program for training up a new coach and supporting him adequately. They further enhanced their very old school and amateurish decision making processes by sacking him. It should never of got to that and I feel sorry for all concerned. Time will tell if them or any other club will make the same mistake. Coaching is management and there are solid principles for doing it in a competent way and it is about time that AFL clubs get out of the dark ages and stop sacking coaches because it is more a sign that the club is incompetent that it is anything else. If you get to that point as early as Melbourne did then as we know, there are much bigger problems and I for one am really hoping that the people claiming SW is a poor coach are so wrong.
Con Gorozidis wrote:In my opinion SW deserves a medal.
Inherits a dreadfully inadequate and unbalanced list and some older war horses who have climbed the mountain are on the way the down.
Walks into a milney debacle from 9 years ago.
As JM pointed out - those romanticising about Lyon - Freo finished 6th and won a final in 2010. They were ripe for the picking for a coach.
Con tell us why he deserves a medal at the moment. it cant be for playing young guys. He had no choice. it cant be for game day coaching. he hasnt shown a lot there yet. So con tell us why he gets a medal. i have no idea if SW can coach or not yet. i havent seem much to say either way. If anything Id say he is going at just under 50% due to some selection issues this season IMO of course. RL is going at about 80% this season. Glad he isnt our coach now though.
Hang on second. So can you find any positives in SW in terms of player improvement. Can you list any players that have improved under him?
Con Gorozidis wrote:In my opinion SW deserves a medal.
Inherits a dreadfully inadequate and unbalanced list and some older war horses who have climbed the mountain are on the way the down.
Walks into a milney debacle from 9 years ago.
As JM pointed out - those romanticising about Lyon - Freo finished 6th and won a final in 2010. They were ripe for the picking for a coach.
Con tell us why he deserves a medal at the moment. it cant be for playing young guys. He had no choice. it cant be for game day coaching. he hasnt shown a lot there yet. So con tell us why he gets a medal. i have no idea if SW can coach or not yet. i havent seem much to say either way. If anything Id say he is going at just under 50% due to some selection issues this season IMO of course. RL is going at about 80% this season. Glad he isnt our coach now though.
Hang on second. So can you find any positives in SW in terms of player improvement. Can you list any players that have improved under him?
Yep a fair few. no idea if they would or would not have improved anyway. i tend to look at game plan and selections. They seem to change every 2 or 3 weeks. SW has a year and half to go to prove he get another 2 years. I reckon we will know this time next year whether he will get 2 more years or not.
Lyon did nothing different in regards to the list than Matthews did when he left the Lions. Didn't hear anyone up here complaining about Matthews or the way he left the list. If Lyon had one a flag (or two) no one on this forum would make a sound about list management.
Con Gorozidis wrote:In my opinion SW deserves a medal.
Inherits a dreadfully inadequate and unbalanced list and some older war horses who have climbed the mountain are on the way the down.
Walks into a milney debacle from 9 years ago.
As JM pointed out - those romanticising about Lyon - Freo finished 6th and won a final in 2010. They were ripe for the picking for a coach.
Con tell us why he deserves a medal at the moment. it cant be for playing young guys. He had no choice. it cant be for game day coaching. he hasnt shown a lot there yet. So con tell us why he gets a medal. i have no idea if SW can coach or not yet. i havent seem much to say either way. If anything Id say he is going at just under 50% due to some selection issues this season IMO of course. RL is going at about 80% this season. Glad he isnt our coach now though.
Not a big medal! Maybe one of those sew on badges kids get in Cubs.
I think we can all agree Jack Steven and Geary have improved a lot under SW - but that is probably an age/game/natural thing..
The one thing he doesnt have is question marks over his game plan. he has clearly the best game plan in the AFL as shown by how freo are going with all their injuries.
I don't agree at all.
His game plan is right up there with the best in terms of winning regular games.
But in 2008 he went 1 win and 2 thrashings from 3 finals.
In 2009 he went 2 wins (one by 7 points) and a loss from 3 finals.
In 2010 he went 2 wins (one by only 4 points), a draw and then a thumping in 4 finals.
In 2012 he went 1 win from 2 finals.
So his record in finals is definitely nothing special. and in my opinin, there's certainly enough evidence to suggest that either his game plan or nerve on the big stage is lacking.
Con tell us why he deserves a medal at the moment. it cant be for playing young guys. He had no choice. it cant be for game day coaching. he hasnt shown a lot there yet. So con tell us why he gets a medal. i have no idea if SW can coach or not yet. i havent seem much to say either way. If anything Id say he is going at just under 50% due to some selection issues this season IMO of course. RL is going at about 80% this season. Glad he isnt our coach now though.
Hang on second. So can you find any positives in SW in terms of player improvement. Can you list any players that have improved under him?
Yep a fair few. no idea if they would or would not have improved anyway. i tend to look at game plan and selections. They seem to change every 2 or 3 weeks. SW has a year and half to go to prove he get another 2 years. I reckon we will know this time next year whether he will get 2 more years or not.
I actually thought you looked at these things objectively but you are starting to sound so 80s.
The one thing he doesnt have is question marks over his game plan. he has clearly the best game plan in the AFL as shown by how freo are going with all their injuries.
I don't agree at all.
His game plan is right up there with the best in terms of winning regular games.
But in 2008 he went 1 win and 2 thrashings from 3 finals.
In 2009 he went 2 wins (one by 7 points) and a loss from 3 finals.
In 2010 he went 2 wins (one by only 4 points), a draw and then a thumping in 4 finals.
In 2012 he went 1 win from 2 finals.
So his record in finals is definitely nothing special. and in my opinin, there's certainly enough evidence to suggest that either his game plan or nerve on the big stage is lacking.
I have found that unless you win the GF you usually lose a game in the finals if you are good enough to make it. Its strange like that.
markp wrote:Yeah any chump could've coached us to consecutive GF's and within a kick of a flag on each occasion.
I recently watched a couple of games from the thomas era .
We had a great side , the only thing we lacked was the ability to stop good sides scoring against us ! Lyon gave us that ability but we in turn lost our ability to score freely .
markp wrote:Yeah any chump could've coached us to consecutive GF's and within a kick of a flag on each occasion.
I recently watched a couple of games from the thomas era .
We had a great side , the only thing we lacked was the ability to stop good sides scoring against us ! Lyon gave us that ability but we in turn lost our ability to score freely .
One of my strongest recollections of the Lyon era was in the games we were initially being outplayed in, confidently waiting for the quarter time break and the subsequent reversal of our 'luck'.
Stephen Theodore wrote:Lyon did nothing different in regards to the list than Matthews did when he left the Lions. Didn't hear anyone up here complaining about Matthews or the way he left the list. If Lyon had one a flag (or two) no one on this forum would make a sound about list management.
But he didn't.
Just one fkn flag and we wouldn't have cared less.
Lyon is a very good coach, but the fact remains that he took a ripe St.Kilda, and took a ripe Freo, both teams had been developed by others.
If he cocks up the freo list the way he left the Saints list, he will be viewed as a good coach but a parasite who hasn't the capacity to develop a team, just pick off the low hanging fruit when all the hard work is done.
Time will tell.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
