Benefits of Tap Ruckman !

[plugger66]

What is the poor call. If Ben cant ruck he cant play so do you suggest we trade him? I have pointed out by stats that the value of a tap ruckman seems very minimal going by this years stats. Of course we would like to be better at rucking but he gives us many things that some tap ruckmen dont. The leading 4 tap ruckmen this year are Minson, Jamer, Goldstein and Warnock. The value to their side as far as winning seems minimal. Warnock had over 40 taps against us and we won and Ben was in the top 3 on the ground. Minson beat Ben as was certainly part of them winning. All sides apart form Carlton are travelling poorly.

ummm you've done it again. I explained the importance of Ben..so why would I want him traded? You now state we would like better quality rucking....you are going around in circles mate.

We would benefit by having someone who can win the centre tap, if you think not Plugger then that's your call albeit it not a popular one.

Stats show it isnt benifitting the 4 sides with the leading tap ruckmen. And dont we have Hickey as well. I dont get what you want Fireman. If Ben doesnt ruck he cant play so I ask you what do you want Ben to do. Play or not and if yes where.

The four teams with those ruckmen that you mention have very poor / young midfielders. You could put Nic Nat and cox in those teams without it being any better, but put Minson or Jamar at Geelong, and they would win another premiership.[/quote]


As opposed to our now great side or are you putting our slide down the ladder solely to Ben. And i doubt Jamer in any side would win the flag. One possession last week but he got a lot of hitouts. Spare me. There is more to ruckmen than tapping the ball to a 55/45% contest.

[The Fireman]

Stats show it isnt benifitting the 4 sides with the leading tap ruckmen. And dont we have Hickey as well. I dont get what you want Fireman. If Ben doesnt ruck he cant play so I ask you what do you want Ben to do. Play or not and if yes where.


The four teams with those ruckmen that you mention have very poor / young midfielders. You could put Nic Nat and cox in those teams without it being any better, but put Minson or Jamar at Geelong, and they would win another premiership.


As opposed to our now great side or are you putting our slide down the ladder solely to Ben. And i doubt Jamer in any side would win the flag. One possession last week but he got a lot of hitouts. Spare me. There is more to ruckmen than tapping the ball to a 55/45% contest.

you are just not listening are you, I have no probs with Ben, I said we need a good tap ruckman, Ben isn't but still a very good footballer.
I give up.....i give you my white flag.

[plugger66]

Stats show it isnt benifitting the 4 sides with the leading tap ruckmen. And dont we have Hickey as well. I dont get what you want Fireman. If Ben doesnt ruck he cant play so I ask you what do you want Ben to do. Play or not and if yes where.


The four teams with those ruckmen that you mention have very poor / young midfielders. You could put Nic Nat and cox in those teams without it being any better, but put Minson or Jamar at Geelong, and they would win another premiership.


As opposed to our now great side or are you putting our slide down the ladder solely to Ben. And i doubt Jamer in any side would win the flag. One possession last week but he got a lot of hitouts. Spare me. There is more to ruckmen than tapping the ball to a 55/45% contest.

you are just not listening are you, I have no probs with Ben, I said we need a good tap ruckman, Ben isn't but still a very good footballer.
I give up.....i give you my white flag.

And i am explaining to you that we have Hickey and ben and they will end up being a great rucking combination. If you like Ben how can he play if he isnt rucking because he isnt a forward or a backman. I also have said many times that a good tap ruckman means bugger all if he cant do other things around the ground. You obviouslt rate tap ruckmen, I rate players who compete in the ruck but can play around the ground.

[PJ]

If a ruckman clearly has the skill to put it where he wants then he can impact the game stats or not - that is first use. Ben is at a disadvantage there as he doesn't have the leap but when he's on song he is fantastic around the ground - particularly in defence. The way the game is currently nearly the whole team is in defence and in the forward when they can transition fast so I'd argue that Ben is playing as a forward and a defender. Either way you cut it up he clearly belongs and IMO so does Hickey if can improve his kicking set shots.

[BigMart]

So Fireman, which is it... The chicken or the egg?

Midfield or Ruckman?

Does the Ruckman make the midfield or visa/versa

I know Freo finished extremely low in the clearances in 2009 and had the biggest weapon the history of the game in the centre square... An unbeatable and fully fit 7 foot 120kg giant winning 50 hit outs a game?

To me a good Ruckman is much more than a person who can tap a ball to contest. A good Ruckman wins his own ball. Dean Cox is the best Ruckman I have ever seen.... Because of his ability to win footy and be an 'extra mid' in many ways. His numbers and use of the ball is better than most mids. He isn't the greatest tap Ruckman ever, by any means.
Stynes was ver similar. Luenberger will be the same.

If tap work was the determinant of a ruckmans ability.... Robert Warnock, Peter Street, Trent Knobel, Mark Blake, Cameron Wood and other very tall Ruckmen would have been better AFL players.
You have to be a good footballer also... Along with ruck work.
GT was exactly right.... He didn't rate ruckmen (who couldn't actually win the footy)

There are different types of Ruckman.... All with different advantages... The all have a predominant strength... Some a couple of strength (makes them elite)

Athletic Jumping Ruckmen
White, Natinui, Barnes, S.Madden, Ryder, Mitch Clarke, Ditterich

Clearance Ruckmen
Jacobs, Sandilands, Goldstein, Rehn, Mumford, Bailey, Minson, Keating, Matthew Clarke, J.Madden

Running Ruckmen
Stynes, Cox, Kruzer, Luenberger, Fraser

Ruckmen who get fwd and kick goals
Everitt, Gardiner, Jolly, Ottens, Cox, Pyke, Bellchambers

Traditional behind the ball Ruckman
McEvoy, King, Maric, Jamar, Dempsey, Rendell, Wynd, Lee

All have their positives... And weaknesses

[The Fireman]

it is the chicken and the egg, we need a good tap ruckman , another Everitt or a Cox. I was simply debating this with Plugger who seems not to rate a good tap Ruckman while saying I was undermining Ben.

I'll say it one more time, Ben is valuable around the grd but can't win a tap. What do I do with Ben ? CHF maybe ? But we need someone who can win the taps and do the (Ben) things..

I realise we are underdone in other areas but this is about the tap.

[BigMart]

A CHF does not play around the ground?

Tall defender like Reid, Taler and Co would run off Ben and really Hurt us.... He is an ineffective Forward, otherwise he'd play there instead of Maister or Kosi. He is too slow off the mark.

He is best suited playing a kick behind.

[ROLS-LEE]

Today in a few hours, we will see the benefits of a good tap and midfield vs our ruck and midfield. Lets see

[plugger66]

Today in a few hours, we will see the benefits of a good tap and midfield vs our ruck and midfield. Lets see

Like when we beat Carlton who have Warnock who is a very good tap ruckman. Pity he hardly touches the ball.

[ROLS-LEE]

Today in a few hours, we will see the benefits of a good tap and midfield vs our ruck and midfield. Lets see

Like when we beat Carlton who have Warnock who is a very good tap ruckman. Pity he hardly touches the ball.

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks when we lost.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

[plugger66]

Today in a few hours, we will see the benefits of a good tap and midfield vs our ruck and midfield. Lets see

Like when we beat Carlton who have Warnock who is a very good tap ruckman. Pity he hardly touches the ball.

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

[evo]

Like when we beat Carlton who have Warnock who is a very good tap ruckman. Pity he hardly touches the ball.

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

I thought GC's rucks was the reason they were in the game until the last quarter, then they were over run by a much stronger side.

[ROLS-LEE]

Like when we beat Carlton who have Warnock who is a very good tap ruckman. Pity he hardly touches the ball.

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

Hope and logical guess are to different things.

But then again you wrote that because you know it is going to happen and don't want the flak afterwards.

As for geelong, they are still arguably the best/most consistent team of the decade

[plugger66]

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

I thought GC's rucks was the reason they were in the game until the last quarter, then they were over run by a much stronger side.

Always a reason. How do explain geelong all year? Combined they may have the 2 worst rucks in the AFL.

[ROLS-LEE]

How many triple premiership players do they still have

[plugger66]

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

Hope and logical guess are to different things.

But then again you wrote that because you know it is going to happen and don't want the flak afterwards.

As for geelong, they are still arguably the best/most consistent team of the decade

Why would i care about flak afterwards. i stand by what I said about Ben and dont wait until a poor game to post when those types have previously hidden all season. And yeas geelong are a great side.

Is Warnock and Jamer good tap ruckmen?

[plugger66]

How many triple premiership players do they still have

No idea. Do ruckmen only matter when you dont win a flag?

[ROLS-LEE]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

[plugger66]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

Cant think of many at all. That is why we will be a chance once our younger mids improve because we have 2 ruckmen that in future will be a great rucking combination.

Actually changed my mind. I had to go all the way back to last season to find a side that won a flag who were beaten easily in the ruck.

[ROLS-LEE]

Or like when Minson destroyed us in the middle and helped the doggies have more scoring opportunities from centre breaks.

Time will tell but it will be more like our last game than the one against the blues.

The thing that comes across is i think you actually hope you are right so you can then say I told you. By the way I do notice geelong are last on clearances and taps to advantage and were soundly beaten in that area last night. I didnt see who won buy I gather it was the GC. Did you get a result on that one.

Hope and logical guess are to different things.

But then again you wrote that because you know it is going to happen and don't want the flak afterwards.

As for geelong, they are still arguably the best/most consistent team of the decade

Why would i care about flak afterwards. i stand by what I said about Ben and dont wait until a poor game to post when those types have previously hidden all season. And yeas geelong are a great side.

Is Warnock and Jamer good tap ruckmen?[/quote]

Warnock is like a young sandilands. Wins hitouts but not to advantage.
Jamer taps to advantage but melb has a crap midfield

[ROLS-LEE]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

Cant think of many at all. That is why we will be a chance once our younger mids improve because we have 2 ruckmen that in future will be a great rucking combination.

I hope so, but at the moment if you combine ben's around the ground with hickey' s leap and tap work then we would have 1 very good ruck.

Just to make it clear also, I dont dislike ben, just dont rate his ruck work

[plugger66]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

Cant think of many at all. That is why we will be a chance once our younger mids improve because we have 2 ruckmen that in future will be a great rucking combination.

I hope so, but at the moment if you combine ben's around the ground with hickey' s leap and tap work then we would have 1 very good ruck.

Just to make it clear also, I dont dislike ben, just dont rate his ruck work

Well Jamer would be much better. His 7 possessions a game would really add to our side because he can also jump high and tap it. And those 2 marks a game would be great at stopping goals down back but he can tap it.

[ROLS-LEE]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

Cant think of many at all. That is why we will be a chance once our younger mids improve because we have 2 ruckmen that in future will be a great rucking combination.

Actually changed my mind. I had to go all the way back to last season to find a side that won a flag who were beaten easily in the ruck.

Mumford and Pike are pretty formidable combination to me.

I would straight swap ben and hickey in a heart beat for those two

[plugger66]

Ruckmen matter to win them.

As I keep saying, name a premiership winning team without a good dominate ruck division bar hawks in 08

Cant think of many at all. That is why we will be a chance once our younger mids improve because we have 2 ruckmen that in future will be a great rucking combination.

Actually changed my mind. I had to go all the way back to last season to find a side that won a flag who were beaten easily in the ruck.

Mumford and Pike are pretty formidable combination to me.

I would straight swap ben and hickey in a heart beat for those two

In the GF Roughead and hale got 60 hitouts to 40. Not sure hale and Roughead are the best ruckmen ever. I would take Pyke in heatbeat as well as Mumford because they are excellent around the ground especially Pyke. it seems you take their around the ground work into acount buy not bens.

[ROLS-LEE]

Maybe Jamar in a different environment would be better. It is melb