Benefits of Tap Ruckman !

[Rosco]

After the Carlton game had 3 mates on different occasions mention his marking across half & full back. This makes up for current deficiencies, vey hard to learn how to get in he right place and clunk, tap work can be learnt.

[vacuous space]

A tap ruckman might net you an extra handful of clearances. Any guess as to what you might do with those clearances. The correlation between winning clearances and scoring is weak at best. Given the choice between winning and losing the tap, you'd take the win. If the choice is between a good player and a good ruckman, you take the good player.

Ben is good at things that are genuinely valuable. He's an excellent mark and an excellent pack mark. He has excellent skills for a big man. He turns contested ball into uncontested ball which helps the team attack and defend. He's obviously deficient in the ruck and he probably always will be. That's fine. It's not what he's here for.

[gringo]

There is no clear cut right or wrong here. You need someone that can do more than win hit outs but you need to at least stop the opposite ruck winning tap outs to advantage. Big Mac might get better but he needs to get the tap work at least competitive.

Sandilands had a mass of hit outs against us one night but Lenny particularly just stole everything he tapped down. Lenny missing or sore hurt us and missing Armo meant the guy who often sets a shepherd or puts himself between the opposition rover and the ball made it hard. Steven was tag teamed in that game and didn't win much easily. Midfielders make rucks look good

[SainterK]

A tap ruckman might net you an extra handful of clearances. Any guess as to what you might do with those clearances. The correlation between winning clearances and scoring is weak at best. Given the choice between winning and losing the tap, you'd take the win. If the choice is between a good player and a good ruckman, you take the good player.

Ben is good at things that are genuinely valuable. He's an excellent mark and an excellent pack mark. He has excellent skills for a big man. He turns contested ball into uncontested ball which helps the team attack and defend. He's obviously deficient in the ruck and he probably always will be. That's fine. It's not what he's here for.

It's more than that.

Ben calls them in, they structure up accordingly....

They are then horribly out of position.

I'd rather no plan is made, the boys set themselves to pressure and tackle.

IMO.

[66 Saints]

A tap ruckman might net you an extra handful of clearances. Any guess as to what you might do with those clearances. The correlation between winning clearances and scoring is weak at best. Given the choice between winning and losing the tap, you'd take the win. If the choice is between a good player and a good ruckman, you take the good player.

Ben is good at things that are genuinely valuable. He's an excellent mark and an excellent pack mark. He has excellent skills for a big man. He turns contested ball into uncontested ball which helps the team attack and defend. He's obviously deficient in the ruck and he probably always will be. That's fine. It's not what he's here for.

It's more than that.

Ben calls them in, they structure up accordingly....

They are then horribly out of position.

I'd rather no plan is made, the boys set themselves to pressure and tackle.

IMO.

Players should be good enough read the play and alter plans accordingly. Reality is our current midfielders bar Lenny are not that good at it compared to other sides so we need better mids.

[evo]

If as somebody mentioned a good ruckman will win 55% of the tap duels against 45% that means the team with a good ruckman will win 10% more of the clearances- a big advantage. Ben just cannot jump or seem to have any awareness of where his mids are on the rare times he gets to tap the ball. It has frustrated me for some time, even when we had a top midfield, getting continuously smashed at the bounces. For gods sake play him somewhere else, R/R or full forward or Sandy, just don't get the love like many on here. Future captain no, future trade bait maybe.

[plugger66]

If as somebody mentioned a good ruckman will win 55% of the tap duels against 45% that means the team with a good ruckman will win 10% more of the clearances- a big advantage. Ben just cannot jump or seem to have any awareness of where his mids are on the rare times he gets to tap the ball. It has frustrated me for some time, even when we had a top midfield, getting continuously smashed at the bounces. For gods sake play him somewhere else, R/R or full forward or Sandy, just don't get the love like many on here. Future captain no, future trade bait maybe.

Thats interesting. Every tap won get a clearance. sorry but that doesnt happen to even the best ruckman. They average about 20% taps to advantage and that doesnt even mean a clearance. The usual suspects were missing early in the year because they would look foolish. Back on board now though.

[The Fireman]

So Plugger...we don't need a good tap ruckman?

[ROLS-LEE]

This week will be very interesting about our ruck and mid department vs north.
Ben vs Goldstein.
Our mids vs theirs.
I can already see the same result like the dogs.
We will get smashed in hitouts and they will kill us in the clearances and they will score more from centre breaks.
Clearly the crows and the dogs have worked out our game plan with Ben. If it continues with north, then we need to do something different.
As for taking marks in defence is a skill that you cant learn as a poster on here said. Lol
The skill of ruck work against formidable opposition and winning it, is a harder skill to learn than putting your hand up and taking marks against smaller opp. Its like taking a mark at school against year levels below you. If you can not do that then there is issues.

[SainterK]

So Plugger...we don't need a good tap ruckman?

Wish we got Gardi younger and injury free, when fit and firing, the perfect example of bring good at both taps and around the ground.

Miss the big show, on field presence was immense.

Had a hunger got the contest

[ROLS-LEE]

So Plugger...we don't need a good tap ruckman?

Wish we got Gardi younger and injury free, when fit and firing, the perfect example of bring good at both taps and around the ground.

Miss the big show, on field presence was immense.

Had a hunger got the contest

Our best ruckmen since Everett. Paul Harding and lazor were good also. I was too young to remember any others

[plugger66]

So Plugger...we don't need a good tap ruckman?

That isnt the reason we are losing but the way Ben played against the Blues was one of the reasons we won the game. I have given examples of clubs having good tap ruckman and they are going no good at all. Im sure others are going well with good tap ruckmen. Ben has other skills that many ruckmen dont have and in a game they are just as important as a tap ruckman. I have heard many in the media who know a lot more about footy than any of us who really rate Ben and I havent heard many if any who dont rate him.

[evo]

It is a lot easier to get a clearance when your ruckman is dominating. Bens ability to out mark the oppositions small forwards is hiding the fact he is NFG at the ball ups. Probably our worst tap ruckman since Shane Grambeau. At least then we had Galt as a backup.

[plugger66]

It is a lot easier to get a clearance when your ruckman is dominating. Bens ability to out mark the oppositions small forwards is hiding the fact he is NFG at the ball ups. Probably our worst tap ruckman since Shane Grambeau. At least then we had Galt as a backup.

Stats dont show that but continue to bag him. Who are the dominating tap ruckman anyway. i think Minson is number one so its working well for the dogs. And he marks against big and smalls but lie to support your arguement.

Actually you got me. I looked up the ruck stats for this season and the only 3 averaging 30 hitouts a game are Minson,Goldstein and Jamer. I havent looked up the ladder or who those guys play for but I gather all 3 sides are in the top 8. Sorry missed one, Warnock as well. Ben seems to have about the average hitouts per game.

[evo]

It is a lot easier to get a clearance when your ruckman is dominating. Bens ability to out mark the oppositions small forwards is hiding the fact he is NFG at the ball ups. Probably our worst tap ruckman since Shane Grambeau. At least then we had Galt as a backup.

Stats dont show that but continue to bag him. Who are the dominating tap ruckman anyway. i think Minson is number one so its working well for the dogs. And he marks against big and smalls but lie to support your arguement.

Actually you got me. I looked up the ruck stats for this season and the only 3 averaging 30 hitouts a game are Minson,Goldstein and Jamer. I havent looked up the ladder or who those guys play for but I gather all 3 sides are in the top 8. Sorry missed one, Warnock as well. Ben seems to have about the average hitouts per game.

The word 'lie' seems prevalent through a lot of your posts- you must have heard it a lot during your life. If Ben is that good why can he not grab many marks in the forward line? Would it be that he is outmuscled by the bigger forwards ?
If you have played footy at all you would know it is easier to get a touch down back.

[plugger66]

It is a lot easier to get a clearance when your ruckman is dominating. Bens ability to out mark the oppositions small forwards is hiding the fact he is NFG at the ball ups. Probably our worst tap ruckman since Shane Grambeau. At least then we had Galt as a backup.

Stats dont show that but continue to bag him. Who are the dominating tap ruckman anyway. i think Minson is number one so its working well for the dogs. And he marks against big and smalls but lie to support your arguement.

Actually you got me. I looked up the ruck stats for this season and the only 3 averaging 30 hitouts a game are Minson,Goldstein and Jamer. I havent looked up the ladder or who those guys play for but I gather all 3 sides are in the top 8. Sorry missed one, Warnock as well. Ben seems to have about the average hitouts per game.

The word 'lie' seems prevalent through a lot of your posts- you must have heard it a lot during your life. If Ben is that good why can he not grab many marks in the forward line? Would it be that he is outmuscled by the bigger forwards ?
If you have played footy at all you would know it is easier to get a touch down back.

Ignored the part about the stats and yes i know it is easier to mark at floating ruckman. have no idea why that matters though. How many marks did warnock and Jamer take in the last few weeks. Should be easy for jamer. He would be down back a lot and he gets lot of hitouts. i think Warnock and jamer had heaps of hitouts last week but had 3 possessions between them. Now that is ideally what we want at our club. 2 very good tap ruckmen. And you did lie by saying he marks against small forwards. I can spot a person who struggles to debate and resorts to that stuff from a mile off. And Ben cant mark in the forward line because he isnt good enough to play in that spot regularly. Never said he was and have actually said he cant many times. No idea what that has to do with as a ruckman though.

[lewdogs]

Are we seriously turning on Ben?

Sheesh

[The Fireman]

Hmmm you've lost me plugger, I asked you about the value of a good tap ruckman, I said nothing about Ben who does fantastic work around the grd and I value his presence highly but not as a tap ruckman. You on the other hand don't seem to appreciate the value of such...hmmm sounds familiar ?
anyway poor call in my opinion Plugger.

cheers

[plugger66]

Hmmm you've lost me plugger, I asked you about the value of a good tap ruckman, I said nothing about Ben who does fantastic work around the grd and I value his presence highly but not as a tap ruckman. You on the other hand don't seem to appreciate the value of such...hmmm sounds familiar ?
anyway poor call in my opinion Plugger.

cheers

What is the poor call. If Ben cant ruck he cant play so do you suggest we trade him? I have pointed out by stats that the value of a tap ruckman seems very minimal going by this years stats. Of course we would like to be better at rucking but he gives us many things that some tap ruckmen dont. The leading 4 tap ruckmen this year are Minson, Jamer, Goldstein and Warnock. The value to their side as far as winning seems minimal. Warnock had over 40 taps against us and we won and Ben was in the top 3 on the ground. Minson beat Ben as was certainly part of them winning. All sides apart form Carlton are travelling poorly.

[CURLY]

I'd take a good player over a tap Ruckman any day....

Win the hit out.... Advantage is about 55/45...

Hit outs vs results shows barely any correlation.....

What is nice, is to have a Ruckman who can play

When did McEvoy become a good player ? How many marks does he take against his rucking opponents (very few). How many marks does take when playing forward (very few), any hack can slide around defence picking off smaller opponents ! Bulldogs & Crows learnt from his game against Carlton and went around him or forward from his lost centre clearance.

IMO if he wants to become a good player he needs to take some grabs when rested forward and then convert them.

Is this post a joke I don't get it if it is.

[The Fireman]

Hmmm you've lost me plugger, I asked you about the value of a good tap ruckman, I said nothing about Ben who does fantastic work around the grd and I value his presence highly but not as a tap ruckman. You on the other hand don't seem to appreciate the value of such...hmmm sounds familiar ?
anyway poor call in my opinion Plugger.

cheers

What is the poor call. If Ben cant ruck he cant play so do you suggest we trade him? I have pointed out by stats that the value of a tap ruckman seems very minimal going by this years stats. Of course we would like to be better at rucking but he gives us many things that some tap ruckmen dont. The leading 4 tap ruckmen this year are Minson, Jamer, Goldstein and Warnock. The value to their side as far as winning seems minimal. Warnock had over 40 taps against us and we won and Ben was in the top 3 on the ground. Minson beat Ben as was certainly part of them winning. All sides apart form Carlton are travelling poorly.

ummm you've done it again. I explained the importance of Ben..so why would I want him traded? You now state we would like better quality rucking....you are going around in circles mate.

We would benefit by having someone who can win the centre tap, if you think not Plugger then that's your call albeit it not a popular one.

[Bernard Shakey]

Can't be bothered reading all this, but did anyone notice that Adelaide won the game after subbing Jacobs out in the third quarter?

[plugger66]

Hmmm you've lost me plugger, I asked you about the value of a good tap ruckman, I said nothing about Ben who does fantastic work around the grd and I value his presence highly but not as a tap ruckman. You on the other hand don't seem to appreciate the value of such...hmmm sounds familiar ?
anyway poor call in my opinion Plugger.

cheers

What is the poor call. If Ben cant ruck he cant play so do you suggest we trade him? I have pointed out by stats that the value of a tap ruckman seems very minimal going by this years stats. Of course we would like to be better at rucking but he gives us many things that some tap ruckmen dont. The leading 4 tap ruckmen this year are Minson, Jamer, Goldstein and Warnock. The value to their side as far as winning seems minimal. Warnock had over 40 taps against us and we won and Ben was in the top 3 on the ground. Minson beat Ben as was certainly part of them winning. All sides apart form Carlton are travelling poorly.

ummm you've done it again. I explained the importance of Ben..so why would I want him traded? You now state we would like better quality rucking....you are going around in circles mate.

We would benefit by having someone who can win the centre tap, if you think not Plugger then that's your call albeit it not a popular one.

Stats show it isnt benifitting the 4 sides with the leading tap ruckmen. And dont we have Hickey as well. I dont get what you want Fireman. If Ben doesnt ruck he cant play so I ask you what do you want Ben to do. Play or not and if yes where.

[The Fireman]

what I want is a good tap ruckman, Ben can play chf?

[ROLS-LEE]

Hmmm you've lost me plugger, I asked you about the value of a good tap ruckman, I said nothing about Ben who does fantastic work around the grd and I value his presence highly but not as a tap ruckman. You on the other hand don't seem to appreciate the value of such...hmmm sounds familiar ?
anyway poor call in my opinion Plugger.

cheers

What is the poor call. If Ben cant ruck he cant play so do you suggest we trade him? I have pointed out by stats that the value of a tap ruckman seems very minimal going by this years stats. Of course we would like to be better at rucking but he gives us many things that some tap ruckmen dont. The leading 4 tap ruckmen this year are Minson, Jamer, Goldstein and Warnock. The value to their side as far as winning seems minimal. Warnock had over 40 taps against us and we won and Ben was in the top 3 on the ground. Minson beat Ben as was certainly part of them winning. All sides apart form Carlton are travelling poorly.

ummm you've done it again. I explained the importance of Ben..so why would I want him traded? You now state we would like better quality rucking....you are going around in circles mate.

We would benefit by having someone who can win the centre tap, if you think not Plugger then that's your call albeit it not a popular one.

Stats show it isnt benifitting the 4 sides with the leading tap ruckmen. And dont we have Hickey as well. I dont get what you want Fireman. If Ben doesnt ruck he cant play so I ask you what do you want Ben to do. Play or not and if yes where.[/quote]


The four teams with those ruckmen that you mention have very poor / young midfielders. You could put Nic Nat and cox in those teams without it being any better, but put Minson or Jamar at Geelong, and they would win another premiership.