Why can't we copy their model

[borderbarry]

I wonder who we could have got for picks 12 and 13 instead of Lee and Hickey?

[Life Long Saint]

The difference between Geelong's recruiting and our recruiting, isn't just the quality of player, it is the fact that they blooded them as well, gave them game time and nurtured them.

It's no fluke that the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 premiership teams all have their own state league team.

The sooner we bite the bullet and move to this model the better off we'll be.
Until that happens we will never be a serious contender because the gap that Collingwood, Geelong (and now Essendon), Sydney, Brisbane, Port Adelaide (and West Coast and Freo if they get their way) will open up will be too wide to bridge.

[joffaboy]

Too simplistic to suggest Father Son has given them premierships

They did a lot more than that to build that team

yes it is too simplistic, of course it is. However you put Scarlett, Ablett, and Hawkins in the Saints team, or take it out of the Geelong team GF day 2009 and tell me it wouldn't have made a difference.

They were picked up for virtually nothing.

Dont dismiss this fact. Two out and out champions and one up and coming forward for a song.

Take them out of the Geelong team of 2009 and we win the flag.

[3rd generation saint]

Too simplistic to suggest Father Son has given them premierships

They did a lot more than that to build that team

yes it is too simplistic, of course it is. However you put Scarlett, Ablett, and Hawkins in the Saints team, or take it out of the Geelong team GF day 2009 and tell me it wouldn't have made a difference.

They were picked up for virtually nothing.

Dont dismiss this fact. Two out and out champions and one up and coming forward for a song.

Take them out of the Geelong team of 2009 and we win the flag.

No argueing your point JB, their past players have produced better prodigy than all the other teams combined.
My point is, their team now, and the fact that during their successful period, thanks in part to their genetic engineering, they still blooded their young players and nurtured them, we didn't. We kept playing McQualter, Peake, Eddy and others who would probably struggle to get a game at Melbourne. Our kids would get one game and that was that.
As I said before, there are only three genuine draft pick kids from Lyon's era that are established players, McEvoy, Armitage and Stevens.
Stanley and Sipposs, should be, and probably are now more thanks to Watters. How many genuine draft picks in the form kids we're in that Geelong team yesterday, a lot moe than ours.

[dragit]

The difference between Geelong's recruiting and our recruiting, isn't just the quality of player, it is the fact that they blooded them as well, gave them game time and nurtured them. Our recruits would BOG at Sandringham and would be constantly overlooked by RL's favourite bit players, so they lost valuable experience.
Some of the guys we've let go, may have been decent players if we had supported them like Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn did.
The lagacy of recruiting during the Lyon era is only 3 players who have established themselves, McEvoy, Stevens and Armitage, and Armitage and Stevens have really blossomed since Watters has been here.
At other clubs, I reckon Sippos and Stanley would ahve had 30+ games by now.

good post...

Not really, Geelong only have 2 players from Siposs & Stanleys draft years with 30+ games

Podsiadly (the opposite of youth) and Taylor Hunt.

Let's face it Siposs hasn't really been good enough to consistently get games & Stanley has been more injured than fit.

Lynch, Walsh & Cripps might not be with us, but they haven't left for zilch, instead we now have Newnes, Markworth, Wilkes, Murdoch & Saunders. So maybe those 5 should be included in the Lyon recruiting legacy?

[BigMart]

Duncan??

The Ruckman

Smedts

[Richter]

Gee whizz people, in the last 9 seasons we have finished in the top half 7 times, got the double chance 4 times and played in two grand finals. I agree that some of the team selections in 2010 can be argued were poor from a developmental point of view (pick Eddy in a GF one week and cut him from the list the next? wtf?), but what we are experiencing is the natural lull of teams that have been at the top for a long time. Only two clubs have bucked the trend....

Sydney - have an extra $1m in the salary cap. Financially supported by the AFL. Long term consistency in senior coach - i.e. planned transition from Roos to Longmire.
Geelong - father-sons: a massive freebie that delivered them two players for next-to-nix that would be AFL team of the century players (Scarlett and Ablett), as well as Hawkins who won the 2011 GF off his own boot, as well as the two 1st rounders that Ablett delivered.

ALL other clubs who have done well over the last decade have had years down the bottom

Collingwood - bottom four in 2004, 2nd bottom in 2005,
Hawthorn - Missed finals 2002-6, bottom 4 in 2004-5
West Coast - finished 2nd bottom in 2008 and bottom in 2010
Bulldogs - gonig through their slump a year or two in front of us, didn't even make a GF during their up time
Port Adelaide - since 2009 have been crap, could now be pulling out of that

------------------------------------

What matters now is that we regenerate quickly so that we can bounce back quickly (like West Coast and Collingwood have been able to) rather than have an extended period down the bottom (such as Port, the Bulldogs (probably) and the Demons.

We clearly have a need to find new players everywhere and I for one see some planning in what we have been doing over the last 2 years...

- 2011 draft - Best available, trade for a couple of mid-age players to fill the gap in the list (Saad, Milera, Wilkes)
- 2012 draft - Talls, to learn from Rooey whilst he is still at the club - Talls take longer to come through than mids

We have also picked up a lot of players, which is vital in that it increases the chance of discovering a gem or two down the draft order.
The single biggest failing has been the loss of Dawson for nothing and an inability to secure a tall defender.

This plan would suggest the following as priorities over 2013-14:

Key position defender
Mids

We will most probably have a top 10 draft pick (possibly a top 5 pick) this year for the first time in 6 years. (And NB our highest pick in the last decade has been pick 8 in 2003) And we will have significant $$ in the salary cap to entice players from other clubs to come to us.

[saint66au]

Every gamble (no pun intended) weve taken at the recruiting table over the last 8 years has bitten us on the bum. Lovett, Walsh, Jesse Smith to just name 3.

Look at the Geelong Hawks game yesterday and see how many players from the drafts of 2007-2010 were out there on the park ...and how they performed compared to the few we had? Both had players who were genuine guns before their 50th game.

To avoid a trip down the ladder you need to have kids who, by good luck or good management or whatever, impress from the get go. When was the lat time we had a draftee who at the end of their first season was a automatic selection? I mean draftee not traded player.

Reckon it was BJ.

[saintsRrising]

The difference between Geelong's recruiting and our recruiting, isn't just the quality of player, it is the fact that they blooded them as well, gave them game time and nurtured them. Our recruits would BOG at Sandringham and would be constantly overlooked by RL's favourite bit players, so they lost valuable experience.
.

Yes and no.

Yes we could have blooded some more, or rather given the chosen few more games. However in general I believe that there was a paucity of good young talent to blood.....or to develop.

If Lyon saw something in a younger player, such as Geary or Dawson, then he played him.

Gwilt was persevered with by 3 both GT and Lyon.

But by and large a lot of the youth we picked up you were left scratching your head as to why after watching them play.

I cannot think of a younger player who if I am really honest that we let go that was not given a real crack, that should have been.

Players like Lynch may have played some good football at Sandi, but when promoted they did not really show much promise. Lynch was a surprise pick when we took him.....and best thing we did was trade him on to get Newne's who looks more promising.



How frustrated must GT and Lyon have been to get the new kids in, have a pre-season and then think WTF!!

[saintsRrising]

Reckon it was BJ.

.....and he was a No 1 pick.

However the year that I daydream about as being a good year was the year prior in 2011:

Picks in order:
Ball
X Clarke
Dalsanto
Maguire
Montagna
Josh Houlihan



If you could get selections as right as that every year, then you are in the team-building business. However one call wrong was taking Ball instead of Judd!


Get the picks right, and the rest can follow. Get the picks wrong, and you are pushing s*** up hill.

[plugger66]

Reckon it was BJ.

.....and he was a No 1 pick.

However the year that I daydream about as being a good year was the year prior in 2011:

Picks in order:
Ball
X Clarke
Dalsanto
Maguire
Montagna
Josh Houlihan



If you could get selections as right as that every year, then you are in the team-building business. However one call wrong was taking Ball instead of Judd!


Get the picks right, and the rest can follow. Get the picks wrong, and you are pushing s*** up hill.

And that has been the problem for the last 5 years bar 2011 and hopefully 2012. 3 years of bad recruiting can set you back years and I think we are for a lot of pain in the next few years.

[BigMart]

But at the time the recruiting was OK. Some defended it??

We've had some very nice selections lately... But our blue chip picks have been average... Not an a-grader amongst the last 10 years from our first selection.

Our later picks have been ok..... Siposs, Steven, Stanley, Newnes... And some others

Rookie selections have been outstanding....

The reason our blue chip picks have been poor... I believe we have ignored the obvious in search for something more.... IMO we have gambled with our selections in the 10-25 range in the hope we pull off a star. Rather than take a likely good player

[saint66au]

The recruiting at the time was defended BM cos we just didnt know and we rightly gave them the benefit of the doubt. ..plus we were flying so that of course leads to some forgiveness in this area

I know some were high picks..but We dont have a Selwood, Rioli, Beams, Pendlebury, Hannaberry, Dangerfield or Sloane..and its those blokes who turn you around, not (with respect) Nicholas Winmar Jamie Cripps or Tom Lynch.

[BigMart]

With the picks we had.... We had the opportunity for the following

Frawley, Jack R, Cyril, Danger, Trengrove, Fyfe, Bastinac, Duncan, Darling, Elton, Kerstin, Lonergan, Jaksch

These guys weren't strangers to recruiters... Well done to the guys who selected them

We ended up with a couple of solid players.....

2008/2009 were very poor selections
And Howard in 2006 with #26

[plugger66]

With the picks we had.... We had the opportunity for the following

Frawley, Jack R, Cyril, Danger, Trengrove, Fyfe, Bastinac, Duncan, Darling, Elton, Kerstin, Lonergan, Jaksch

These guys weren't strangers to recruiters... Well done to the guys who selected them

We ended up with a couple of solid players.....

2008/2009 were very poor selections
And Howard in 2006 with #26

We are pathetic for not getting them. At least 3 of them. Esepcially Elton, Kerstin and jaksch. Elton for his singing and Kerstin for her acting in spiderman. Not sure jaksch had done yet but i would use the first 3 letters and then add an off.

[BigMart]

Ah, you've resorted to comedy.

This is when you're desperate! Leave that to the funny guys on the forum. You jokes remind me of an old dude compliment a young woman as a flirt..... Cringeworthy

If you knew when the last couple were taken, you'd realise why they were mentioned.

[plugger66]

All we can hope for is improved recruiting this season and hope the last 2 work out. It can take 3 to 4 years to see the actual results unless you are lucky to get a Selwood type. We havent had the luck or ability to jag one in years.

[kos]

I wonder who we could have got for picks 12 and 13 instead of Lee and Hickey?

Who ever we would have drafted with 12 & 13 would not have included white and wright at 24 & 25!

[BigMart]

Recruiting has been good in the last three years comparatively..... That's easy to analyse...

Ledger, Siposs, Newnes, Curran, Dunnell, Saad, Milera, Lee, Hickey, Minchington and others....

All showed something in senior footy

[Terrance80]

Recruiting has never been a strong point of this club...the amount of blunders we made between 02 and 06 cost us and is still costing us... We traded Peter Everett for picks 6 and 30 odd.. You know who we got..? Barry brooks.. We drafted raph Clarke with pick 8..? We traded a first round pick for fergus watts another year...? We also got Andrew maqualter with a first rd pick... I was a fan of mini but not rated that highly...I know it was a toss of the coin but we took ball instead of judd... Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think this may have helped the club around 08/09 .. The recruiting under both Thomas and Lyon is questionable

[BigMart]

Nor Lyon or Thomas were responsible for recruiting

[SydneySainter]

Nor Lyon or Thomas were responsible for recruiting

It's naive to think coaches have no say in recruiting.

[SunburySaint]

Nor Lyon or Thomas were responsible for recruiting

Surely they had a say though BM?

[saintsRrising]

Nor Lyon or Thomas were responsible for recruiting

It's naive to think coaches have no say in recruiting.

I think it depends what you mean by "recruiting": kids and trades?

They can and do get involved in trades, or at least they used to do. However with Pelchen at the club, I doubt that Watters has much involvement.

But have minimal involvement in recruiting kids. Involvement is more in specifying the type of player sought, or most sought.

[BigMart]

Why have a head of recruiting and a list manager.... It would be a team approach... But Pelchin would have the final say.

I know GT had almost no say in who was picked... And was ok with that.