Thoughts on Tommy Walsh by a Sydney Fan

[samoht]

Look forward to your next "in depth" case study.

your problem is you don't "look forward"... you're stuck in your "distorted/perverted" past.

[joffaboy]

Were has your post gone where you called me a sook and that Lyon was my hero?



That was really funny.

Lyon my hero - lol.

So you are saying that in the past you never DEMANDED Lyon play Walsh? That you intimated that Lyon was somehow deliberately holding back Walsh?

That never happened?

Lyon my hero - too funny

[samoht]

Lyon my hero - too funny

Lyon your "runaway" hero, who you keep defending for his great judgement whilst glossing over his glaring mistakes re: Lovett, recycled players and TL, TW, LB. He can do no wrong.

[SainterK]

You can always count on the word 'revionist' being dusted off by JB if someone even mildly questions Lyon.

[joffaboy]

Lyon my hero - too funny

Lyon your "runaway" hero, who you keep defending for his great judgement whilst glossing over his glaring mistakes re: Lovett, recycled players and TL, TW.

lol - yup you keep believing that backward thomas, just like your delusion TW was going to be a superstar, if only that dastardly Ross Lyon played him in one game.

Oh god too funny.

s much as I love chatting backward thomas, I think this latest deflection of yours is going to send the thread into a downward spiral.

So to finish off.

1) backward thomas DEMENDED Walsh be played for one game and Lyon was holding him back because he was such a failure as a coach and could not recognise the pure talent of TW and was intent in playing only his favourites

2) Tommy Walsh left the Saints because Lyon wouldn't give he a (undeserved) game in the seniors.

3) Now pointed out be various Sydney fans and the results on the board at Sydney, backward thomas blames the club and "medja" for telling him Walsh was good (because the medja has never hyped up a player before)

4) now because of this and because somehow people like me (who actually saw TW play numerous times when at Sandy) didn't believe the hype, we are deluded about TW - go figure.

5) When asked to apologise to RL and this forum for being abjectly and totally wrong backward thomas resorts to labelling me a Lyon hero worshipper

All good. Hilarious actually how someones fragile ego wont let them admit how dumb they looked and how embarrassing their silly demands were.

Oh well. Fairly well set out above. I think the forum can make up their own minds on how has been made to look foolish with their ignorant calls on TW.

Been a hoot, but unfortunatley with backward thomas unsurprising and oh so predictable

[joffaboy]

You can always count on the word 'revionist' being dusted off by JB if someone even mildly questions Lyon.

Dont forget straw man argument sainterk

Glad Lyon is gone BTW. Everyone should be. Did his best, wasn't good enough, move on

[SainterK]

Robert Walls has Freo Top 2, as blinded by his love as you...

[samoht]

Glad Lyon is gone BTW. Everyone should be. Did his best, wasn't good enough, move on

+1000
I haven't even bothered to read your last lengthy response .. I automatically know it's going to be garbage.
The new reformed JB (as indicated by your above response), sounds better.
Let's move on, as you say... but the question is can you?
It remains to be seen.

[Dr Spaceman]

I, like all of us, wanted TW to make it. I, like some of us, wanted TW to get a senior game. Never demanded it; as if that would have done any good. But certainly wanted it.

Initially I was disappointed when he left us for the Swans however it certainly looks like we've come out ahead on the deal. And that's so even if Tom suddenly starts finding his feet.

The reality was that some of us were looking for loyalty that simply was never going to be there. When Irish blokes get lured to the AFL it's for one main reason - money. If TW had've stayed on at St Kilda and failed to make the grade, he'd not have much to show for sacrificing his Gaelic Football career. The Swans offered the bucks and the guiding hand of a fellow countryman who was both a friend and a legend of code hopping.

So with all that in mind I don't blame TW for the decision he made. Would a senior game have changed his mind? Reality is well never know and therefore we just move on.

I don't wish Tom any ill. Nonetheless I'll personally feel a bit better if he never makes it beyond being an average player

[stinger]

There seems to be separate issues here...

I don't think anybody felt that we did badly out of that trade. We were always clear winners in that regard... though myself personally I was disappointed that he left.

And that's the major issue here. It's the fact that this guy who WE brought in, were rapt to get and invested in was happy to walk out on us.

Lets be really clear here... tthe club WANTED him to stay. As BM pointed out, Lynch too. From our POV they were players we wanted to keep but they couldn't get out of here fast enough.

Focusing on TW... put whatever spin on it you want but it just doesn't make sense to not play a developing key forward who is playing well in the ressies in a team that was short on KP forwards.

The revisionist stuff in this thread is that ppl criticised RL for not playing the messiah. Nobody thought TW was the next Loewe. A lot of ppl joked about it and the mock hype spread, and many of us damn well hoped we'd unearthed a player that would be a star but nobody actually thought he was going to debut, kick 9 goals VS Geelong and 100 in his next season. Heck even the Swans didn't think that. That's just silly.
And I laugh at plugger's suggestions that the coach knew he was walking or thought he wasn't good enough... if I posted that the response would be "how do you know what the coach thinks, did you ask him"

The issue in the whole TW saga is how we managed/developed him and why he walked out on us. That's what RL gets criticised for... at least he should. Not what JB posted which if true is just plain silly

good post...

[skeptic]

Skeptic you obviously lack common sense. No I didnt ask RL why he wasn't played. I put 2 and 2 together and got 4 and came it with the coach thought he wasnt good enough. Very poor example if you are trying to use that when i say the same thing but the difference is when I say it it is logical. By the way when did i ever mention he didnt play him because he was walking. Please dont lie to back up a poor argument. Just show me where I said it or you are just a plain liar.

I'm not going to dredge through your thousands of posts but I'm fairly sure you have said that before. If you haven't, I do apologise but I'm pretty confident that you have


Now forgive me mixing your post up but RE this part...

And if we really wanted to keep TW and TL then it would have been a huge mistake. Maybe we should have tried to keep Nick Heyne as well. I always here our young guys werent given a chance but the 3 who were given second chances have struggled. The rest that were delisted werent even rated good enough to play AFL again. I think you could safely say our drafting for a few years now has been poor.

Ur argument with Heyne is off the mark because he never looked up to it in the ressies whereas RE Walsh and Lynch, they played some good footy for Sandy... evidenced by none other than the fact that opposition clubs were willing to trade well for both of them (again both trades of which we came out on top). In regards to their talent that's your opinion but again you miss the point... we didn't let them go... we didn't want them to go... it wasn't some coaching master stroke.

These players that we drafted, tried to develop and then wanted to keep were willing to walk outt on us. That's the ISSUE. The fact that both don't look up to it at the moment is IRRELEVANT as we would have kept them if we could have. The criticism is that players are willing to walk out on this club based on how we treat them... sure it's no big deal for these guys but guess what... Ball walked out for nothing and was willing to do that. Goddard a player that many of us idolized left. Players walking out on this club is an issue for me. It might not be for you but to me it demonstrates evidence of a problem.

And you and others still dont get it. TW was probably only playing well enough to play between 0 and 2 games anyway. He played 0. Wow if he had played 2 that would have made RL a good coach or maybe in peoples minds who dont rate RL a bad coach for playing a dud. Those same people will then hope no one goes through their threads and sees that those people thought TW was a star.

See again to me you miss the point. This isn't about what you have but what you could have.

How many ppl would have really cared if Maister was cut at the end of the last saeason? Reasonable VFL form, nothing spectacular, a few games for the Saints, one good a couple average ones.

Some forumites would have been upset saying he had potential, others would say he was never going to be any good. Heck even now some ppl don't rate him.

You know what though... Beau had a taste of it and then followed up with his best preseason to date and currently looks a lock for rd1... He stepped it up. Now Beau may or may not make it but I bet his stint on the seniors when he earnt his spot and was rewarded contributed to his increased hard work. Not every one has Lenny's work ethic off the track... its not something you just have or don't... heck Lenny himself stated that it wasn't until his early 20s that he pulled his finger out.

Rewarding effort is what yields better results IMO. Maybe Tommy could have had a game where a few things wnet his way and his self-belief may have improved.

To me that's the right way to go about things.

Other ppl are happy to play and persevere with an injured Nick Riewoldt that can barely walk and an under performing Kosi, and accept the average performances whilst blaming our poor recruiting. That's what you prefer to do then fair enough.. me I can't fathom the idea of persisting with players that are in horrible form...
what good did it do us with McQualter, Gilbert, and Jones, King, Gardiner, and Ray in 2011 (i think) who only improved after he was dropped.

[markp]

If we put a certain value on a player and they think they're worth more, and are subsequently offered and accept more elsewhere, then its only a problem if they go on to set the world on fire.

Some would argue Ball did, but not I, Walsh hasn't, and we'll see about BJ.

The myth of loyalty is all but dead, except for the rare few.

[plugger66]

Skeptic you obviously lack common sense. No I didnt ask RL why he wasn't played. I put 2 and 2 together and got 4 and came it with the coach thought he wasnt good enough. Very poor example if you are trying to use that when i say the same thing but the difference is when I say it it is logical. By the way when did i ever mention he didnt play him because he was walking. Please dont lie to back up a poor argument. Just show me where I said it or you are just a plain liar.

I'm not going to dredge through your thousands of posts but I'm fairly sure you have said that before. If you haven't, I do apologise but I'm pretty confident that you have


Now forgive me mixing your post up but RE this part...

And if we really wanted to keep TW and TL then it would have been a huge mistake. Maybe we should have tried to keep Nick Heyne as well. I always here our young guys werent given a chance but the 3 who were given second chances have struggled. The rest that were delisted werent even rated good enough to play AFL again. I think you could safely say our drafting for a few years now has been poor.

Ur argument with Heyne is off the mark because he never looked up to it in the ressies whereas RE Walsh and Lynch, they played some good footy for Sandy... evidenced by none other than the fact that opposition clubs were willing to trade well for both of them (again both trades of which we came out on top). In regards to their talent that's your opinion but again you miss the point... we didn't let them go... we didn't want them to go... it wasn't some coaching master stroke.

These players that we drafted, tried to develop and then wanted to keep were willing to walk outt on us. That's the ISSUE. The fact that both don't look up to it at the moment is IRRELEVANT as we would have kept them if we could have. The criticism is that players are willing to walk out on this club based on how we treat them... sure it's no big deal for these guys but guess what... Ball walked out for nothing and was willing to do that. Goddard a player that many of us idolized left. Players walking out on this club is an issue for me. It might not be for you but to me it demonstrates evidence of a problem.

And you and others still dont get it. TW was probably only playing well enough to play between 0 and 2 games anyway. He played 0. Wow if he had played 2 that would have made RL a good coach or maybe in peoples minds who dont rate RL a bad coach for playing a dud. Those same people will then hope no one goes through their threads and sees that those people thought TW was a star.

See again to me you miss the point. This isn't about what you have but what you could have.

How many ppl would have really cared if Maister was cut at the end of the last saeason? Reasonable VFL form, nothing spectacular, a few games for the Saints, one good a couple average ones.

Some forumites would have been upset saying he had potential, others would say he was never going to be any good. Heck even now some ppl don't rate him.

You know what though... Beau had a taste of it and then followed up with his best preseason to date and currently looks a lock for rd1... He stepped it up. Now Beau may or may not make it but I bet his stint on the seniors when he earnt his spot and was rewarded contributed to his increased hard work. Not every one has Lenny's work ethic off the track... its not something you just have or don't... heck Lenny himself stated that it wasn't until his early 20s that he pulled his finger out.

Rewarding effort is what yields better results IMO. Maybe Tommy could have had a game where a few things wnet his way and his self-belief may have improved.

To me that's the right way to go about things.

Other ppl are happy to play and persevere with an injured Nick Riewoldt that can barely walk and an under performing Kosi, and accept the average performances whilst blaming our poor recruiting. That's what you prefer to do then fair enough.. me I can't fathom the idea of persisting with players that are in horrible form...
what good did it do us with McQualter, Gilbert, and Jones, King, Gardiner, and Ray in 2011 (i think) who only improved after he was dropped.

Well you say i miss the point so I wont bother saying that but using TW as example you say if he was given a chance he may have stepped up. Well his chance would have been between 0 and 2 games 2 years ago. He was then given a chance just not with us but the club he wanted to go to so you would have thought he would have taken the chance surely. At the moment he hasnt. Surely you arent saying those 1 or 2 games would have made him play better last season. It lacks logic.

[saintsRrising]

In hindsight it is probably most fortunate that Lyon did not play TW in the seniors, as his true trade value would have been more evident....and we may well have been sitting here in 2013 having delisted TW with 2-4 games to his now and nothing else to show for his time for us.

Without that many went by his good Gaelic performance, including when he went home and played with TK.

As it stands we have gained pretty good value for him., and so we have realised some good value for the time and money put into him. Winners are Grinners.

[joffaboy]

I haven't even bothered to read your last lengthy response .. I automatically know it's going to be garbage.

No, it is because you are deluded and feel foolish

The new reformed JB (as indicated by your above response), sounds better.

If you believe that you are a bigger deadset f-wit than I already believe you are.

You are either extremely stupid or you cant read. You delude yourself what you believe to be the truth when it is obviously not so.

Really it is like conversing with a child that wont admit to facts

Let's move on, as you say... but the question is can you?

lol - the irony is dripping from the above sentance. I think you need to move on from your ignorance and idiotic position you built up about Lyon not playing TW and that you were totally and hopelessly wrong.

Completely WRONG

Utterly WRONG

Admit you have no idea about football. You are clueless when it comes to the machinations of a football club. That you are less than a know nothing when it comes to player selection amd once you move on and admit your mistakes and the fact you make a total dumbass of yourself, you can be free of your fragile ego and your obsession over abbrogation of responsibility and your juvenile finger pointing and blame assignation to everyone else but yourself then maybe you can move on and become a grown up

It remains to be seen.

Oh yes it does.

[skeptic]

Well you say i miss the point so I wont bother saying that but using TW as example you say if he was given a chance he may have stepped up. Well his chance would have been between 0 and 2 games 2 years ago. He was then given a chance just not with us but the club he wanted to go to so you would have thought he would have taken the chance surely. At the moment he hasnt. Surely you arent saying those 1 or 2 games would have made him play better last season. It lacks logic.

I'm actually not saying that at all... rereading my post I don't know how you drew your conclusion

I think what this comes down to is a difference of football philosophies... I've tried to express something that I felt is very important that wasn't done well... and you obviously don't value or share that particular belief system as you really don't seem to grasp the principle of what I'm saying... which is fair enough.

Good day sir

[Scollop]

There seems to be separate issues here...

I don't think anybody felt that we did badly out of that trade. We were always clear winners in that regard... though myself personally I was disappointed that he left.

And that's the major issue here. It's the fact that this guy who WE brought in, were rapt to get and invested in was happy to walk out on us.

Lets be really clear here... tthe club WANTED him to stay. As BM pointed out, Lynch too. From our POV they were players we wanted to keep but they couldn't get out of here fast enough.

Focusing on TW... put whatever spin on it you want but it just doesn't make sense to not play a developing key forward who is playing well in the ressies in a team that was short on KP forwards.

The revisionist stuff in this thread is that ppl criticised RL for not playing the messiah. Nobody thought TW was the next Loewe. A lot of ppl joked about it and the mock hype spread, and many of us damn well hoped we'd unearthed a player that would be a star but nobody actually thought he was going to debut, kick 9 goals VS Geelong and 100 in his next season. Heck even the Swans didn't think that. That's just silly.
And I laugh at plugger's suggestions that the coach knew he was walking or thought he wasn't good enough... if I posted that the response would be "how do you know what the coach thinks, did you ask him"

The issue in the whole TW saga is how we managed/developed him and why he walked out on us. That's what RL gets criticised for... at least he should. Not what JB posted which if true is just plain silly

Skeptic you obviously lack common sense. No I didnt ask RL why he wasn't played. I put 2 and 2 together and got 4 and came it with the coach thought he wasnt good enough. Very poor example if you are trying to use that when i say the same thing but the difference is when I say it it is logical. By the way when did i ever mention he didnt play him because he was walking. Please dont lie to back up a poor argument. Just show me where I said it or you are just a plain liar.

And you and others still dont get it. TW was probably only playing well enough to play between 0 and 2 games anyway. He played 0. Wow if he had played 2 that would have made RL a good coach or maybe in peoples minds who dont rate RL a bad coach for playing a dud. Those same people will then hope no one goes through their threads and sees that those people thought TW was a star.

And if we really wanted to keep TW and TL then it would have been a huge mistake. Maybe we should have tried to keep Nick Heyne as well. I always here our young guys werent given a chance but the 3 who were given second chances have struggled. The rest that were delisted werent even rated good enough to play AFL again. I think you could safely say our drafting for a few years now has been poor.

I think what this comes down to is a difference of football philosophies... I've tried to express something that I felt is very important that wasn't done well... and you obviously don't value or share that particular belief system as you really don't seem to grasp the principle of what I'm saying... which is fair enough.

Good day sir

Ahhhh...hmmmm... I disagree. I think it comes down to different IQ's. skeptic sounds reasonable, is coherent and most importantly communicates well and rationally and logically, and p66 is....well...the nicest way to put it is that; he struggles to think for himself and frankly.... he is like one of the millions out there in suburbia and you'll find his ilk in hundreds of towns and vilages where they just believe what the Herald Sun tells them!!!

As for jb telling others to grow up...gee that's a bit rich coming from someone who calls himself 'boy'

[stinger]

Look forward to your next "in depth" case study.

your problem is you don't "look forward"... you're stuck in your "distorted/perverted" past.

aint that the truth....

[stinger]

You can always count on the word 'revionist' being dusted off by JB if someone even mildly questions Lyon.

do what i did...foe him then you don't have to read his vile posts...

[70s sainter]

In hindsight it is probably most fortunate that Lyon did not play TW in the seniors, as his true trade value would have been more evident....and we may well have been sitting here in 2013 having delisted TW with 2-4 games to his now and nothing else to show for his time for us.

Without that many went by his good Gaelic performance, including when he went home and played with TK.

As it stands we have gained pretty good value for him., and so we have realised some good value for the time and money put into him. Winners are Grinners.

Thats a very good point.

[skeptic]

In hindsight it is probably most fortunate that Lyon did not play TW in the seniors, as his true trade value would have been more evident....and we may well have been sitting here in 2013 having delisted TW with 2-4 games to his now and nothing else to show for his time for us.

Without that many went by his good Gaelic performance, including when he went home and played with TK.

As it stands we have gained pretty good value for him., and so we have realised some good value for the time and money put into him. Winners are Grinners.

Thats a very good point.

not by design though

[groupie1]

over at Bigfooty...

Interesting read. Basically got Newnes, Markworth and Maister for him.

And some awesome students of the game on this site built up a straw man argument that Lyon was deliberately not playing him and this was the reason we lost the next Plugger/Loewe/Reiwoldt rolled into one.

All Lyons fault hey? Longmire must not be able to develop players either hey?

Lets face it, Walsh is below average and seems as though he has Buckleys of making it in AFL.

Time for the whiners and slanderers of Ross Lyon regarding Tommy Walsh to fess that they know SFA when it comes to development of players and the reasons why some do and some dont get selected.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/t ... sh.991346/

I would agree with you but its looks like the new coaches for Nick Heyne and Tom Lynch have had much more success than RL did with them.

Watters guaranteed him a game at FF round 1. So RL wasn't the only one who saw something in him.

[SaintPav]

over at Bigfooty...

Interesting read. Basically got Newnes, Markworth and Maister for him.

And some awesome students of the game on this site built up a straw man argument that Lyon was deliberately not playing him and this was the reason we lost the next Plugger/Loewe/Reiwoldt rolled into one.

All Lyons fault hey? Longmire must not be able to develop players either hey?

Lets face it, Walsh is below average and seems as though he has Buckleys of making it in AFL.

Time for the whiners and slanderers of Ross Lyon regarding Tommy Walsh to fess that they know SFA when it comes to development of players and the reasons why some do and some dont get selected.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/t ... sh.991346/

I would agree with you but its looks like the new coaches for Nick Heyne and Tom Lynch have had much more success than RL did with them.

Watters guaranteed him a game at FF round 1. So RL wasn't the only one who saw something in him.

If RL saw something in TW he would have played him in the game in Sydney in late 2011 when we had a late withdrawal and he was an emergency but he brought in Stevie Baker who wasn't even listed.

Where did you hear Watters guaranteed TW a game in round 1?

[villasaint]

It' has been hard for Walsh to break into the saints and swans as they have been strong teams. Last year Grundy and Richards were on fire and not injured. If they go down as Johnson already has he might get a crack. Must admit i get a kick out of him not getting a kick as I thought he owed us a least one more year.