How good are Armo and Steven actually?

[dragit]

…the player with more kicks, marks, tackles and goals will have a bigger influence over a game,

You must rate Matthew Boyd right up there then?

[Spinner]

…the player with more kicks, marks, tackles and goals will have a bigger influence over a game,

You must rate Matthew Boyd right up there then?

Boyd is a great player.

[dragit]

…the player with more kicks, marks, tackles and goals will have a bigger influence over a game,

You must rate Matthew Boyd right up there then?

Boyd is a great player.

He is a very good player but... he was 4th for disposals last year but was isn't the AA squad, don't think many would have him in their best 20 players in the comp? Despite his massive numbers, I don't think he influences matches like many who accumulate less touches.

[SainterK]

He is a very good player but... he was 4th for disposals last year but was isn't the AA squad, don't think many would have him in their best 20 players in the comp? Despite his massive numbers, I don't think he influences matches like many who accumulate less touches.

Disagree.

They pretty much have no forward line to speak of.

How can he influence anything other than winning the ball?

[dragit]

He is a very good player but... he was 4th for disposals last year but was isn't the AA squad, don't think many would have him in their best 20 players in the comp? Despite his massive numbers, I don't think he influences matches like many who accumulate less touches.

Disagree.

They pretty much have no forward line to speak of.

How can he influence anything other than winning the ball?

Is he in the best 3 mids in the comp because he is in the top 3 av disposal winners? That is the point I am trying to make.
I doubt anyone would have him in their top 3?
He gets heaps more of the ball than Lenny, Judd & Cotchin, is he better than those guys?

[bergholt]

He is a very good player but... he was 4th for disposals last year but was isn't the AA squad, don't think many would have him in their best 20 players in the comp?

I had him in the top 20 mids in my OP. I reckon he sits comfortably alongside Murphy, S Thompson, Selwoods, Dal Santo, Priddis; definitely not as good as Swan, Ablett, Watson, Pendlebury. Not sure if that means he's in the top 20 players, but he's easily in the top 50.

[gringo]

Boyd would be a super star at any of the big melbourne clubs. He's a pretty quiet operator so doesn't attract the attention of the wider footy community. Not sure how anyone can say definitively that the top 10 is set as there are good players that could all stake a claim.

[dragit]

but he's easily in the top 50.

Absolutely… I think this Boyd point is getting out of hand, he is a great player, but I don't have him in my top 5 or 10.
I am simply looking at hungry's method for rating players, more possessions does not equal better player, that is all.

[hungry for a premiership]

He is a very good player but... he was 4th for disposals last year but was isn't the AA squad, don't think many would have him in their best 20 players in the comp? Despite his massive numbers, I don't think he influences matches like many who accumulate less touches.

Disagree.

They pretty much have no forward line to speak of.

How can he influence anything other than winning the ball?

Is he in the best 3 mids in the comp because he is in the top 3 av disposal winners? That is the point I am trying to make.
I doubt anyone would have him in their top 3?
He gets heaps more of the ball than Lenny, Judd & Cotchin, is he better than those guys?

Very true, Boyd doesn't really fit into the crude system I've invented to demonstrate my point here. But I maintain that somewhere there, deep in the numbers, the less obvious numbers than kicks, tackles etc, the value of Hayes, Swan etc over Boyd is shown. That's why that full-time professionals working on them at the club....

[gringo]

It's especially hard when you compare guys that win their own ball rather than do the outside running. Selwood probably is a bigger loss than Bartell if one went down because Bartell gets more outside footy than Selwood.

Dal santo gets more contested footy than you imagine as does Joey- both are considered outside players by people outside the club. A genuine first hand on the ball that leads to a clean possession to an outside mid is worth a heap of junk possessions. Judd in his early days was a revelation because he could grab the ball moving at pace and deliver it into the forward fifty.

Boyd is a gun because he gets hard hands and knees possessions and dishes off.

[Kickit]

It's especially hard when you compare guys that win their own ball rather than do the outside running. Selwood probably is a bigger loss than Bartell if one went down because Bartell gets more outside footy than Selwood.

Dal santo gets more contested footy than you imagine as does Joey- both are considered outside players by people outside the club. A genuine first hand on the ball that leads to a clean possession to an outside mid is worth a heap of junk possessions. Judd in his early days was a revelation because he could grab the ball moving at pace and deliver it into the forward fifty.

Boyd is a gun because he gets hard hands and knees possessions and dishes off.

We probably should go through the whole exercise again with "Contested" disposals, but its a lot of work and doesn't take into account things like who is rucking at the time.
Saints do need to win more contested ball though and Its pretty much my major concern. Lenny is still our best, followed by Dal Santo.
With better rucking this year ( no insult intended to Blake who was pretty amazing considering ) we probably still need someone to step up.
Ledger?

[bergholt]

Saints do need to win more contested ball though and Its pretty much my major concern. Lenny is still our best, followed by Dal Santo.
With better rucking this year ( no insult intended to Blake who was pretty amazing considering ) we probably still need someone to step up.
Ledger?

If that's your main worry then you'd have to pin your hopes on Armo. He's got the body and attitude for it, if he can take a step a bit like Jobe Watson did in the last couple of years then that'll make a massive difference.

[White Winmar]

They're both still works in progress. I think Armo was delayed in his developmental years by a lack of opportunity. He's ready now, I believe, to take another significant step into the "A" grade. He's shown consistent and significant improvement in the past couple of seasons. As for Jack, he's made a significant impact, considering his relative youth and inexperience. He's also on the cusp of taking a significant step forward. Iron out some minor issues with his kicking on the run, and he will be the complete package. Courageous, smart, quick, and most importantly, he can find the pill. Only time will tell, whether either or both will achieve the final and most difficult steps. The signs are good, IMHO.

[gringo]

They're both still works in progress. I think Armo was delayed in his developmental years by a lack of opportunity. He's ready now, I believe, to take another significant step into the "A" grade. He's shown consistent and significant improvement in the past couple of seasons. As for Jack, he's made a significant impact, considering his relative youth and inexperience. He's also on the cusp of taking a significant step forward. Iron out some minor issues with his kicking on the run, and he will be the complete package. Courageous, smart, quick, and most importantly, he can find the pill. Only time will tell, whether either or both will achieve the final and most difficult steps. The signs are good, IMHO.

Totally agree and think this is their year. They have the tools just need to put them to work. Steven has the goods to be elite as does Armo. Armo as K said is in the best nick of his career- no puppy fat anymore. I can see both becoming A graders after 2013.

[Teflon]

but he's easily in the top 50.

Absolutely… I think this Boyd point is getting out of hand, he is a great player, but I don't have him in my top 5 or 10.
I am simply looking at hungry's method for rating players, more possessions does not equal better player, that is all.

Well said dragit - totally agree.

20 of Pendlebury posessions fwd of centre over 30 of Boyds anyday.

To suggest Montagna has better kicking % effectiveness than a Dal ignores the different direct pressure both are under. I'll wager Dal Santo is tagged ahead of Montagna weekly - why do you think we either used Goddar OR Dal Santo as the defensive qtr back set up players and not Montagna????? .....cause their disposal AND decision making is superior to those other guys. Its why Alan Jeans suggested some time back that Dal Santo ought to be used fwd of centre - a very damaging set up player with the ball and IF he is given space he'll hit his target more than a Montagna. His decision making and vision under pressure is elite IMO.

Sorry Hungry - stats dont tell u everything.

[Kickit]

Stats don't tell everything, but there are very few good "midfielders" who dont get a lot of the ball.
Pendlebury still gets over 30 disposals for nearly every game he plays, and when you judge young players it doesn't matter how composed, or good at kicking etc they are, if they are only getting 15 touches they need to be looking at getting more of the ball. Hence it becomes ONE way of tracking player development.
If you want to then compare similar players back to back you obviously need to review a heap of subjective stuff.
So Pendlebury may be more effective than Boyd, but Boyd is more effective than some kid who only gets 20 disposals once every five games.

[Teflon]

Stats don't tell everything, but there are very few good "midfielders" who dont get a lot of the ball.
Pendlebury still gets over 30 disposals for nearly every game he plays, and when you judge young players it doesn't matter how composed, or good at kicking etc they are, if they are only getting 15 touches they need to be looking at getting more of the ball. Hence it becomes ONE way of tracking player development.
If you want to then compare similar players back to back you obviously need to review a heap of subjective stuff.
So Pendlebury may be more effective than Boyd, but Boyd is more effective than some kid who only gets 20 disposals once every five games.

True but comparing Boyd possessions to a kid doesn't tell you much does it?

I'd reckon Boyd would get more of the ball than Dal Santo also often but I'd still rate Dal Santo the better mid for what he can do with it.

Anyway agree stats don't tell you everything - they are an indicator.

[Wrote for Luck]

Well here is contested ball stats last year;

Hayes 10.8
Dal Santo 10.6
Steven 9
Monty 8.5
Gods 8.1
Armo 7.8
Ross 7

Interestingly all of Ross's disposals last year were contested, and Armo had more overall contested disposals to Gods (164/163).

[elizabethr]

Didn't Ross play like 1 game against GCS ??

[Wrote for Luck]

yep it was a bit of a gag.