Window bolted shut?

[bigcarl]

I was talking to some opposition supporters at the cricket yesterday. A couple of Carltons, a Collingwood and an Essendon.

The consensus was that we will not improve in 2013, that we had our chance and didn't take it.

I said, "we'll see" and pointed out that (apart from not nabbing a full back) I thought we'd recruited well.

What do Saintsationalists think in their hearts? Can we make the finals in 2013?

[Ralphy]

Yeah we will make the finals, but arent top 4...

[bobmurray]

Good question...no doubt the list is evolving but how many changes will there be to Watter's preferred 22..

We need to evolve to reload, but, do we have enough quality recruits to get back into the 8, can we cover our weaknesses, will the development factory actually work.....

Makes for an interesting season

[SuperDuper]

a team from outside the eight has broken into the top four every season since the AFL expanded to 15 teams with Freo’s 1995 introduction.

Will it be the saints this year?
I think we have the most uncertain team for years... we seem to have recruited well, but there are no certainties.... it could go either way for mine but it looks a very interesting year, that is for sure

[lloyd21]

Would think they one shot in gun but don't think next year will be it .

The following one big chance ( just my opinion ) ..Riewoldt / Fisher last crack games into Ross/ Ledger / Stanley /Lee /Wright / Saad/ will start to get 50 games into them
White will ready by then , think other teams like Collingwood won't be as good as Jolly will be gone and from what I hear quite a few others giving it away.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

If you're asking whether the window is open next year then the answer is no.

Whether another window presents itself in 2014 or 2015 will be down to how well (and quickly) our youngsters develop.

[Kernal75]

Shut for the time being. I hope we get back in the 8 but I think next year will be one of development and wouldn't surprise me to see us slide a little further down the ladder. In saying that let's hope everyone fires and we surprise a few teams!

[St Ick]

We are the great unknown, we could either finish 14th behind Carlton, Richmond, Essendon etc or we could finish 4-6 if we get some luck.

I have read that our window has been shut since Stan Alves days. We do need some kids to step it up and I think Newnes, Roberton, Curren, Dunnell, Saunders, Ross and Wright can all play @ certain times and play well when they get their chance.

[linmarnic]

I believe we are a chance. We still have enough champions playing well and good number of youngsters coming through. If something clicks well we may get on a roll and you never know. Who would have tipped the Swans for the flag last year or for the Crows to be top four and so close?

[Dr Spaceman]

I believe we are a chance. We still have enough champions playing well and good number of youngsters coming through. If something clicks well we may get on a roll and you never know. Who would have tipped the Swans for the flag last year or for the Crows to be top four and so close?

Exactly.

Was the Swans window open last year or did they simply use the door?

[SaintPav]

I was talking to some opposition supporters at the cricket yesterday. A couple of Carltons, a Collingwood and an Essendon.

The consensus was that we will not improve in 2013, that we had our chance and didn't take it.

I said, "we'll see" and pointed out that (apart from not nabbing a full back) I thought we'd recruited well.

What do Saintsationalists think in their hearts? Can we make the finals in 2013?

I would have rolled my eyes and said: "yeah, thanks. tell me something I don't know".

we are no chance but good on you for being so optimistic.

Next time your mates have a go at the saints, turn it back on them. Carlton and Essendon have done sweet fa over the last ten years.

[Dave McNamara]

I believe we are a chance. We still have enough champions playing well and good number of youngsters coming through. If something clicks well we may get on a roll and you never know. Who would have tipped the Swans for the flag last year or for the Crows to be top four and so close?

Exactly.

Was the Swans window open last year or did they simply use the door?

Great points guys!

The only problem is..., we must be shot... Lockett, Winmar, Harvey, Loewe, Hamill, Misso and McNamara all gone...




PS: I laffed when I read that Effn'dum and Carltank supporters where talking of other sides having missed there chance...

[White Winmar]

I believe we are a chance. We still have enough champions playing well and good number of youngsters coming through. If something clicks well we may get on a roll and you never know. Who would have tipped the Swans for the flag last year or for the Crows to be top four and so close?

Exactly.

Was the Swans window open last year or did they simply use the door?

Like a burglar, they jemmied the window open and pinched the cup. Their success gives hope to every side that's reasonably close. The talent has never been spread as thinly as it is now. Anything could happen.

[The Redeemer]

What was an annoyance for me last year is that we played pretty well against the top 4 sides however the sides say 5-8 we did not play to our potential at all and that really cost us. If we were to have transformed the same effort and performance from the matches against 1-4 sides into the 5-8 sides then we would have played finals.

I believe we should make the finals just as I did this season.

I also believe that this is about getting as much finals/big game experience into the next batch of players as we can whilst we have such a talented core group still around.

[bigcarl]

Next time your mates have a go at the saints, turn it back on them. Carlton and Essendon have done sweet fa over the last ten years.

I did point out to the Carlton guys that Malthouse is a premiership coach ... and so was Denis Pagan.

[Eastern]

In looking for/at our improvement for 2013 I see Rhys Stanley as playing a vital role !!

[kosifantutti]

a team from outside the eight has broken into the top four every season since the AFL expanded to 15 teams with Freo’s 1995 introduction.

Will it be the saints this year?
I think we have the most uncertain team for years... we seem to have recruited well, but there are no certainties.... it could go either way for mine but it looks a very interesting year, that is for sure

That stat is not true anymore. 2009 and 2010 had the same top four.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

honestly i see us being better than -
GWS
Bulldogs
Port
GWS
Melbourne

i see us being a fair way off -
Hawthorn
Collingwood
WCE
Sydney
Crows
Freo

we are in the mix with the rest with possibly Essendon Richmond and North pulling away from us ... i see Carlton in a pretty similar position to us and lord only knows what Geelong will do now they have turned into a recycled player yard .. can we make the finals ? sure we can if we get a solid output from the older guys and a few of the younger guys burst out of the block but my gut feel we will be sitting about 11th on the ladder by years end ... that said i dont think it will be that long of a period before we are back up there

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Lots of good points so far. As I've sated a few times in the past few weeks, I believe there are numerous reasons why we could improve on what we did this year. Lots and lots of them.

I dare say losing BJ and Gram (and to a lesser extent Cripps) won't help, nor will the fact that several of our best are getting on in years, but not a whole lot went right for us this year and yet we were still just 4 wins away from finishing the H&A rounds in 4th spot and we lost 4 games by 8 points or less and lost another couple that also basically went down to the wire. That's how close we were to finishing top 4, despite having some big structural holes and being in the first year under Watters and his new game plan.

In plenty of those games we pretty much pissed away our chances with our dreadful conversion alone. From memory we kicked 1 goal 8 in the 3rd quarter of our close loss to Richmond, 1 goal 6 in the 3rd quarter of our close loss to Freo and 1 goal 6 in the last quarter of our close loss at the SCG to Sydney, just to give some examples of how easily we could have won those games and been on the brink of finishing top 4. Not to mention our loss to Port in R1. And that was in spite of playing several games with no "recognised ruckman" and several with a pretty decimated backline.

We dominated the premier team for extended periods at times this year (even in our loss to them at the SCG- when we were only 4 points down inside the last 4 minutes- we'd had 37 inside 50's to 13 in the 2nd half, until the last 10 minutes of the game), lost to another top 4 team in Collingwood by just a goal, lost to another top 4 team in Adelaide (in Adelaide) by just 4 points and were right with Hawthorn till 3/4 time, despite being desperately short and undersized down back, especially after Fisher went off at half time.

So we were four close losses away from finishing top 4 ourselves and were extremely competitive in every game we played against the teams that did finish top 4, yet everyone outside of our club seems to give us no chance of even making the finals next year?

And basically their argument seems to be this. "Your team is too old, the older guys are going to drop off and you've lost Goddard". So basically they are saying that those over the age of say 29 next year are likely to decline overall and Goddard has gone and that no-one under the age of say 29 is going to step up sufficiently to offset any drop off from those over 29, or the loss of Goddard.

That's where I think their argument breaks down. They are basically saying that the older ones can only get worse and that the younger ones can't get any better, or better enough to offset any drop off or personell loss. Really the only ones over 29 next year that played to their optimum, or near it, this year, were Lenny, Dempster, Monty (although he was no-where near as damaging as he was two years ago) and maybe Milne (although he was very slow to get started and didn't really get rolling until the 2nd half of the season), so any of Roo (who was still struggling with his knee in the first half of the season), Dal, Fisher, Schneider, Jones, Kosi could easily have a better year next year without all that much trouble, as none of them were really close to their current best this year, due to either form, injury issues, or a combo of both.

So I could even see the "over 29 brigade" potentially improving next year on what they produced as a collective this year (although it's not super-likely) and that's before we even get to how much potential improvement there still is from the likes of Gilbert and Gwilt, who are only 26 and were nowhere near their best this year, or Wilkes, who is likely to improve on what he did this year, as is Ray, who only played half of this season.

Then of course we get to the likes of McEvoy, Armitage, Steven, Stanley, Siposs, Saad, Simpkin, Milera, Lee, Geary, Newnes, Roberton, Dunell, Ledger, Hickey, Dennis Lane, who could all easily play next year. Every single one of them could step it up on what they did this year and quite a few of them are now at that stage where they are at that age when they could really step it up significantly. There is a heap of potential improvement in this group and that is what those who don't follow us seem to fail to recognise. They seem to focus completely on the older brigade and how much they COULD drop off next year, or how much Goddard's loss could effect us next year and completely ignore just how much potential improvement there is in those under 27, who make up the majority of our best 22 (14 of my best 22 are under 27 next year and I can see potential improvement in every one of them on what they produced this year).

Other ways we could easily improve on what we did this year:

- Get off to a better start. The last two years, for various reasons, we've been very poor in the lead-up preseason games and have taken that poor form into the season proper, putting us on the back foot from the start, playing catch-up from there. Pretty much none of the likely main reasons for our poor preseason form over the last two years (all the off-field scandals after the 2010 season, not to mention the devestation of losing that GF and then this year trying to get used to Watters new game plan, but then missing one game altogether (in Wangaratta) and then playing a shortened game the following week in 36deg heat), is likely to apply next year, so I see it as much more likely that we will hit 2013 with a lot more momentum and form than we did in either 2011 or this year.

If we do and we knock over Gold Coast in R1 and then Richmond in R2 (not easy I realise, but very do-able) and then smash GWS the following week, we could very easily be sitting top of the ladder after R3 and from there, how much do you think the likes of Lenny and Nick and Chips and co. are going to fight to the death to make sure we stay up around the top? Many of them will probably realise that this could be the last year they all have together and if they get a taste of it again they are likely to be like a dog with a bone from that point on and will feel they are back where they belong. So much of sport is played above the shoulders and if we believe we can do it and are in the thick of it, then we can win a lot of games. Our draw is not super hard and there are lots and lots of very "winnable" games, if we're firing.

- Getting better used to the game plan. Does anyone really think we perfected the way Watters wants us to play footy this year? I sure don't. We were too offensive, probably needed to get it out of our system after years under Lyon's iron fist, but next year I expect we will find a better balance between attack and defence. When we were at our very best this year, like against Carlton the first time and Sydney the first time, our defensive pressure and attack on the ball were 2009-like and if we get back to more of that, we will win more games than we lose next year for sure. When we play like that we rarely lose.

- Our kicking for goal is likely to improve. Wouldn't be hard to do. Cost us wins this season. Was at times ridiculously bad. Will most likely be heavily worked on over summer, as will our kicking into the forward line, which similarly let us down frequently this year.

- Good preseason. Just expanding on the previous points, it seems that at this point we are having a pretty good preseason and more seem to be in full training than have been in the past couple of years at this point. There seemed to be very few who needed off-season surgery.

- Our forward line will quite likely be stronger. We have more depth and competition for spots in the forward line than we have had in a long, long time and it is highly unlikely that if anyone struggles up forward, like Kosi did this year, that they will be allowed to remain in the team for weeks and weeks on end. Anyone who is out of form in the forward line next year is likely to be out of the team in a hurry, unless their name is Nick Riewoldt or Stephen Milne (although with Saad, Milera, TDL, Schneider nipping at his heels, even he could be in trouble if he isn't near his best). This added competition is very healthy and will hopefully ensure that everyone lifts their games, to ensure that they stay in the team, which will make the team stronger.

- Our backline is likely to be stronger and more settled. It was decimated for periods of time this year, especially in the first 10 weeks and if we happen to successfully transplant someone from the forward line to the backline, we could fill the big hole we had at FB this year.

- We are likely to be significantly stronger in the ruck next year. I think we all know why. Mac will be 24 and has 69 games under his belt and knows that he needs to step it up. I believe he will. Rhys was also very impressive at times this year in the ruck and he ought to be even better there next year, plus we have Hickey who may add to our stocks there from as soon as next year. As a last resort, we have Blake and Kosi, who we will possibly be able to get from the VFL this time, rather than our backline or forward line.

- We look to have better depth in all areas than we did this year. This year we pretty much had no back-up for the ruck, or for a key defensive role and just had Wilkes as back-up up forward. Next year we look like having possibly all of Hickey, Kosi/Lee/Wilkes and Blake in reserve in the VFL. That is triple the depth of "back-up talls" than we had this year, giving us a far better chance of dealing with injuries.

- It may be that the older brigade have been almost waiting (subconsciously) until some of the younger ones are ready to step up and help out, after they probably realised after 2010 that they couldn't do it by themselves. 2013 may be the time that that starts to really happen. If the younger ones do step up and start carrying more of their share of the load, then the older ones may pull out all the stops again and go hammer and tongs to win.

- The scars of the lost opportunities of 2009/2010 will have healed more by next year, I expect and with more fresh faces in there, the excitement and mojo may return.

As I've said plenty of times, there are of course plenty of reasons why we could be worse next year and these are the reasons you'll hear from basically anyone who doesn't follow us, so i don't need to go into them. They would have mostly said there was no way West Coast could possibly go from bottom of the ladder in 2010 to top 4 last year, or that Adelaide could come from nowhere last year to almost making the GF this year, though, so while they could very easily be right, they could also be way, way off, as they likely would have been about those two teams.

Make no mistake, we could absolutely make the finals next year and even make the top 4 and we could also finish as low as bottom 5, if everything happened to go to s***.

It's exciting, as far as I'm concerned and I'm looking forward to it in a big way!

[ROLS-LEE]

Our elite is on the decline, they are not going to get any better. Lenny, coming off a knee reco and heart issues, our oldest player and still wins our B&F. This can not happen if we are to improve. We need alot of players to take the next step and not rely on the same players.
People that have there hopes on Stanley (Yet to play a good game), and others, but they all need to lift and battle for spots on our list. Without this, we will continue to fall downward as what I expect.
I feel that we will be between 8 -14 in the next few years.

Come on Saints, prove me wrong.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Lenny, coming off a knee reco and heart issues, our oldest player and still wins our B&F. This can not happen if we are to improve.

Yes it can. The likes of Lenny are damn good, much better than the bottom 6 or 12 in our best 22, for instance and that isn't going to change in a hurry. Lenny could still win the B&F next year, if he has another year like he had this year (when he came top 10 in the Brownlow, don't forget, pretty hard to beat someone that plays that well) and yet we could absolutely improve on what we did this year as a team, if everyone else under him improves and bridges the gap and if we improve AS A TEAM.

I hope Lenny or Roo do win the B&F next year, because they are the best we have and that isn't a bad thing. I'd rather have them than not have them and I'd rather they play to their best next year and win the B&F, because they are that good. If they (or someone like Dal, Chips) play to their best, they will win it, it's pretty much that simple and that is perfectly fine by me. I'd much rather they play to their best than not, just so that someone younger and not as good wins the B&F. What I do want though is for everyone else under them to, as I said, bridge that gap, by improving themselves. Then we as a team could absolutely improve.

Of course it would be fantastic if someone like Lenny or Roo and co. had great years, yet someone under 26 won the B&F, by being even better than them, but that is not likely to happen just yet, so i think we ought to just aim for everyone to play to their potential, no matter their age, and for the team to improve as a unit, rather than worry about who is winning the B&F.

[Bernard Shakey]

No such thing as a premiership window, and the best team is not always the premier, hence we have as good a chance as anyone else next year. Go Sainters.

[Trev from the Bush]

I was talking to some opposition supporters at the cricket yesterday. A couple of Carltons, a Collingwood and an Essendon.

The consensus was that we will not improve in 2013, that we had our chance and didn't take it.

I said, "we'll see" and pointed out that (apart from not nabbing a full back) I thought we'd recruited well.

What do Saintsationalists think in their hearts? Can we make the finals in 2013?

I think it is time to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you are hanging out with Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon supporters!

[ROLS-LEE]

Lenny, coming off a knee reco and heart issues, our oldest player and still wins our B&F. This can not happen if we are to improve.

Yes it can. The likes of Lenny are damn good, much better than the bottom 6 or 12 in our best 22, for instance and that isn't going to change in a hurry. Lenny could still win the B&F next year, if he has another year like he had this year (when he came top 10 in the Brownlow, don't forget, pretty hard to beat someone that plays that well) and yet we could absolutely improve on what we did this year as a team, if everyone else under him improves and bridges the gap and if we improve AS A TEAM.

I hope Lenny or Roo do win the B&F next year, because they are the best we have and that isn't a bad thing. I'd rather have them than not have them and I'd rather they play to their best next year and win the B&F, because they are that good. If they (or someone like Dal, Chips) play to their best, they will win it, it's pretty much that simple and that is perfectly fine by me. I'd much rather they play to their best than not, just so that someone younger and not as good wins the B&F. What I do want though is for everyone else under them to, as I said, bridge that gap, by improving themselves. Then we as a team could absolutely improve.

Of course it would be fantastic if someone like Lenny or Roo and co. had great years, yet someone under 26 won the B&F, by being even better than them, but that is not likely to happen just yet, so i think we ought to just aim for everyone to play to their potential, no matter their age, and for the team to improve as a unit, rather than worry about who is winning the B&F.

I know Lenny is a champ, but last year, NDS, BJ and co, should have polled better and surpassed Lenny by now especially coming off a knee reco. Just shows how good Lenny is. My point is that you can not rely on ageing champs to be in your best players each week, as it shows how weak the rest of the team is. We need players like steven and armo trying to push monty and NDS to second string midfielders. We need stanley and Lee to push kosi and roo out. We need TDL, milera, Saad, pushing Milne and schneids out. Without the younger bridgade forcing selection we will not improve.

[ROLS-LEE]

In looking for/at our improvement for 2013 I see Rhys Stanley as playing a vital role !!

Yes he has plently of upside and could be anything but,

I want him to play a good game first. All this hype due to speed but needs to string 4 quarters first. Then several games.