Hi Saintsational......again. Its been a long time!

[plugger66]

Surely the conditioning of footballers cant be blamed on the coach just as you cant blame RL for the poor drafting of the young recruits. In GT's time we spent bugger all on the footy department as RB tried to get the club back in shape. People just assume it was GT who decided to play Kosi with a back injury or continued to play Ball with OP. Maybe the medical staff said they wouldnt get in worse or maybe they were fit. maybe it was all because of GT or maybe we wouldnt have a clue.

[barks4eva]

Thanks for that stunning analysis, and for having the courage to accurately describe yourself in that second last sentence. Last sentence was good too. Inventive, creative, obviously the product of a mature and balanced mind. You've made my point for me. You damn yourself with your ill informed opinions, spitefulness and abuse, the very things you claim to despise. That makes you a hypocrite, so thanks again for pointing that out. Let me correct you on a few things. I am not young, or not relatively speaking. I am 50 years old and have learnt to respect people, not because of their age, or station in life, but because of their actions. Your histrionic and vile response shows you don 't deserve respect. I stood in the animal enclosure for many years, had plenty to say and never experienced any conflict with my fellow sainters. You may have been there and enjoyed the banter as I did. You don't strike me as the type to sort anyone out. Anonymity and a keyboard seem to be more your go. If you would like to avail yourself of the opportunity to sort me out, you can PM me and we could meet up.

As for having no support from what you call long time saints, I have received plenty of support for my posts over the years, and some have been kind enough to thank me via pm. I haven't received a single negative pm, but then maybe some can't be bothered. I have served the club as a consultant on and off for 14 years, so I dare say my contribution outweighs yours. I'm proud to have worked for the club and I even got paid! I've also been a long time member, so like many of you on here, i've chucked plenty of money at my love of the saints. As for my title, it was my nickname during my playing days. I can assure you it was not bestowed on me because of my similarities to the great man. I was a large and cumbersome ruck man/CHF and I was given it out of that great Aussie tradition of contrary nicknames. Your opinion on that is duly noted and rejected.

As for GT, when did I abuse him? I posed some questions that could be considered tough and causing discomfort, but one thing he has shown over time is that he can handle himself and he's been subjected to plenty that is worse. As I've repeated, he answered the easy one, but not the harder ones, as his his right. If asking hard questions about the way the club is run is considered rude and disrespectful, then I want to be guilty. The fact is, we've won 1 flag in 140 years and part of the reason is we've not been hard enough on ourselves. The most successful organisations are always seeking uncomfortable truths about the way they conduct themselves. It's the only way to improve. So if you want to accept and praise most of what is done, without positive results, then please indulge yourself. My ire towards the Butterss / GT regime, is that we had our best chance in four decades to break our premiership drought. Most in the industry still express their amazement that, given the talent on our list, we didn't win at least one. History will eventually rank this as one of the greatest stuff ups in the history of a club, that quite frankly, is renowned for them.

So beartalbot, I will leave you anchored in the 50's and 60's where life was so much better and everyone respected everyone else. Where we had a white Australia policy, where foreigners were described as wogs, chinks, dagos and curry munchers. Where priests could abuse anyone they wanted to, without fear of being held accountable, where the cops ran abortion clinics and decided who could sell drugs and prostitute themselves. Where Jews were banned from joining private golf clubs and so-called "gentle men's" clubs. Where women routinely earned about half what men did and had to leave their jobs when they married. Where people died in record numbers from workplace accidents because there was no need for workplace safety. Where the world constantly stood on the brink of nuclear annihilation. Where young girls who were unfortunate enough to have an unwanted pregnancy, were humiliated, sent to the country and had their children stolen from them. Where our indigenous people weren't 'allowed to vote and weren't recognised as citizens. Where a young man could go out for a good night's poofter bashing without fear of prosecution. Those were the days, eh Beartalbot!

What you mistake for respect was actually doing as you were told, without question, by those who were in positions of power and control. Maintaining the status quo, not respect, was what that was about. Those symptoms I described above show a society that has little respect, except perhaps for those in certain groups. Thank goodness things have changed and the "unreasonable" people in society keep us moving ahead. I notice you call me mate. I know you're being disrespectful when using that great Australian colloquialism in this context. Perhaps you might throw an apology to all those Aussies that know its true meaning and appropriate and, dare I say it, respectful use. I, for one, am grateful that I will never be the mate of someone like you.

Agree 100%

[White Winmar]

[quote="BackFromUSA"]WhiteWinmar - just FYI your posts are full of revisionist history or pure speculation. I could pull them apart if I wanted to. Thomo did not start at $500,000. Even if he did that would have ranked him around the middle of what coaches were paid then. Not going to bother with the rest. Some truths. Mostly fiction or speculation or opinion.

I fully support beartalbot ... not specifically in reference just to WhiteWinmar ... I am utterly sick of the disrespect people have for others here ... and that it quickly degrades into childish name calling. I shall expand on what beartalbot was saying ... by saying respect your elder but more importantly respect everyone and act in a mature manner.

Saintsational should be (and was created as) a place where we can debate and theorise our prospects ... on and off the field ... as well as share gossip and news with those outside Melbourne ... not a forum to prove who can deliver the best insults or try to sprout opinion as facts without ever being in or close to the inner sanctum of the club.[/quote]

If I'm so wrong, present your side of the argument, hopefully with supporting evidence. Please distinguish between revisionism, speculation and what you call fiction. Big calls that demand "big" evidence. What did Thommo start on and how do you know? I know I'm basing my position on what has been widely reported in the media, including GT defending himself on the basis that he did more than just coach (in fairness to him, he was a one man football department). BTW, how did you know what the other 15 coaches salaries were at the time and if you do, why don't you post your source in support? I believe you don't actually know, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Without wanting to be difficult, when you say you can't be bothered with the rest, is that just an excuse because you don’t have any facts to support your argument? That's lazy and disrespectful, especially as you are basically accusing me of being dishonest and speculative. I agree, this site should be about proper debate and respect. I think you'll notice that I don't sart attacking people, but I will respond when I'm being abused, especially by hypocrites. So onto you my friend, backfromtheusa, you accuse me of lying, fail to point out what these lies are and provide no evidence to support your argument. Then you show your contempt and laziness by using the old excuse, "you can't be bothered". Wow, isn't that insightful, factual and respectful posting?

If you're going to attack, have the respect to do it in a proper and balanced way. Like you, i too am sick of people posting s**t posts and getting upset when someone challenges them. I think we've already seen some so-called victims are actually penetrators.

[StThomo]

WOW! Settle down guys!! I have been very busy on business matters and more recently Xmas prep for family and haven't had time to engage. It's been bought to my attention that there are some testosterone issues. Firstly I accept your criticisms and apologise for not being available. I will attempt to go back and answer what I can. If something is personal I see no point in responding. Could I make the subtle point that sometimes information may not necessarily be close to the truth. There are a lot of myths in footy. I truly enjoy the passion and interaction. I am not beyond criticism. How about we leave the past, after all it was 6 years ago. I am more interested in the future. Always happy to answer specific questions about my time, coaching etc but let's just (upfront) agree to disagree about certain aspects, respect each others points of view and move on. I learned a long time ago not to worry about untruths and if it is true I'm happy to admit it and/or do something about it. Please don't get into argy bargy with each other over views on me - its not worth it. If people want to ridicule, abuse and disrespect I'm sure they will settle down if ignored. Robust passionate debate is fine. Apologies I couldn't be quicker to respond to questions. Cheers

[sasaint]

. I am more interested in the future. Cheers

+1. And love the new game style too. Great to watch and a bunch of great kids coming thru.

[desertsaint]

well good to see the season of cheer has had an effect. Some interesting reading that I haven't had the privilege of reading. Except in almost every other thread that makes it past two pages.
Merry Xmas fellas.

[beartalbot]

My point is if GT and Butterss had not let their egos and personal vendettas get in the way, you, me, your sons and every other saints supporter would now have another premiership or two to reminisce and get excited about. The Only reason we got excited about the GT years was that we were totally crap prior to that. In the end we got a ten game streak and no grand finals, an ugly public spat and a court case. Brilliant. As for you, Loris, I don't quite get your point, but I put some tough questions to GT in a very polite and mild manner and he chose not to answer them, probably because they challenged his revisionist agenda. He did answer the ones that suited his revisionist tendencies.

The reason why modern parenting and education asks or demands people challenge convention, is that we've moved on from the generation that was largely uneducated, bigoted, I'll-informed and sycophantic towards those in power. Thank goodness we've moved on from the fake civility and niceness of your generation. I hope you see the irony in your post in that you are being rude and sarcastic. Where are your manners?

Let me just say WW, one thing that we learnt in our generation was RESPECT, something that you seem to lack. I find you an arrogant, opinionated spiteful young ****, nah, I wont use those words. In the old days, loyal supporters where we attended games in the animal enclosure would have sorted you out in a matter of moments. The sarcastic reference to your problems with the niceness of our generation is a part of the problem your generation has with respecting your elders and authority. Something our generation found as a part of maturity.
Yeah, ramble on answering my post, but let me tell you mate, you have little respect from those many long time Saints supporters who genuinely love this club, as well as those who have served in any capacity. Remember mate, there have been many hundreds of people who have revered this club more than you will ever do. And as a footnote, please remove the respectable name of one of our greats from your signature until you have matured enough to earn the ability to carry this title. From one of your uneducated, bigoted ill informed and sycophantic aged members of this proud club. GROW UP MORON!

Thanks for that stunning analysis, and for having the courage to accurately describe yourself in that second last sentence. Last sentence was good too. Inventive, creative, obviously the product of a mature and balanced mind. You've made my point for me. You damn yourself with your ill informed opinions, spitefulness and abuse, the very things you claim to despise. That makes you a hypocrite, so thanks again for pointing that out. Let me correct you on a few things. I am not young, or not relatively speaking. I am 50 years old and have learnt to respect people, not because of their age, or station in life, but because of their actions. Your histrionic and vile response shows you don 't deserve respect. I stood in the animal enclosure for many years, had plenty to say and never experienced any conflict with my fellow sainters. You may have been there and enjoyed the banter as I did. You don't strike me as the type to sort anyone out. Anonymity and a keyboard seem to be more your go. If you would like to avail yourself of the opportunity to sort me out, you can PM me and we could meet up.

As for having no support from what you call long time saints, I have received plenty of support for my posts over the years, and some have been kind enough to thank me via pm. I haven't received a single negative pm, but then maybe some can't be bothered. I have served the club as a consultant on and off for 14 years, so I dare say my contribution outweighs yours. I'm proud to have worked for the club and I even got paid! I've also been a long time member, so like many of you on here, i've chucked plenty of money at my love of the saints. As for my title, it was my nickname during my playing days. I can assure you it was not bestowed on me because of my similarities to the great man. I was a large and cumbersome ruck man/CHF and I was given it out of that great Aussie tradition of contrary nicknames. Your opinion on that is duly noted and rejected.

As for GT, when did I abuse him? I posed some questions that could be considered tough and causing discomfort, but one thing he has shown over time is that he can handle himself and he's been subjected to plenty that is worse. As I've repeated, he answered the easy one, but not the harder ones, as his his right. If asking hard questions about the way the club is run is considered rude and disrespectful, then I want to be guilty. The fact is, we've won 1 flag in 140 years and part of the reason is we've not been hard enough on ourselves. The most successful organisations are always seeking uncomfortable truths about the way they conduct themselves. It's the only way to improve. So if you want to accept and praise most of what is done, without positive results, then please indulge yourself. My ire towards the Butterss / GT regime, is that we had our best chance in four decades to break our premiership drought. Most in the industry still express their amazement that, given the talent on our list, we didn't win at least one. History will eventually rank this as one of the greatest stuff ups in the history of a club, that quite frankly, is renowned for them.

So beartalbot, I will leave you anchored in the 50's and 60's where life was so much better and everyone respected everyone else. Where we had a white Australia policy, where foreigners were described as wogs, chinks, dagos and curry munchers. Where priests could abuse anyone they wanted to, without fear of being held accountable, where the cops ran abortion clinics and decided who could sell drugs and prostitute themselves. Where Jews were banned from joining private golf clubs and so-called "gentle men's" clubs. Where women routinely earned about half what men did and had to leave their jobs when they married. Where people died in record numbers from workplace accidents because there was no need for workplace safety. Where the world constantly stood on the brink of nuclear annihilation. Where young girls who were unfortunate enough to have an unwanted pregnancy, were humiliated, sent to the country and had their children stolen from them. Where our indigenous people weren't 'allowed to vote and weren't recognised as citizens. Where a young man could go out for a good night's poofter bashing without fear of prosecution. Those were the days, eh Beartalbot!

What you mistake for respect was actually doing as you were told, without question, by those who were in positions of power and control. Maintaining the status quo, not respect, was what that was about. Those symptoms I described above show a society that has little respect, except perhaps for those in certain groups. Thank goodness things have changed and the "unreasonable" people in society keep us moving ahead. I notice you call me mate. I know you're being disrespectful when using that great Australian colloquialism in this context. Perhaps you might throw an apology to all those Aussies that know its true meaning and appropriate and, dare I say it, respectful use. I, for one, am grateful that I will never be the mate of someone like you.

Ya got me in tears WW

[loris]

'beartalbot'...................... go back 4 posts.......... you'll find Thommo has returned.

[mordi]

well GTs lasted 16 days back. Wonder how long he puts up with the nonsense on here ... you have to laugh

[SaintPav]

This thread reminds me of the scene in the film Chopper where Chopper belts his girlfriend then headbutts her mum when she comes to her aid. He then turns to his gf who is lying on the ground and says: "look what you've gone and done to ya poor mum".

[The Fireman]

If I had coached the Saints I would think twice before coming on here.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Hey Thommo, glad that all this hasn't put you off posting on here and a very happy Christmas to you and yours.

I was just wondering whether the club objected to what you said about Kosi and his lack of ultra professionalism off-field earlier this year? That was the first time I'd heard anything like that about Justin and I was surprised, as I'd always thought he had great leadership potential and that he would have been one who worked hard off-field, but I don't believe you would have said what you did if there wasn't truth in it.

Also, just on him, I have always been of the opinion that had he not had those injuries at the end of 2005 and over that following summer that he would have been a shoe-in to captain the club under the rotation policy the following year (after he play ridiculously well in those 4 games when he was filling in for Roo in the role the previous year). Was that the likely scenario, had he been fit over that 2006 preseason?

[Dr Spaceman]

If I had coached the Saints I would think twice before coming on here.

That's because you would have been crap

[BackFromUSA]

WhiteWinmar. You obviously have much more time on your hands than me. You are correct, I should not criticize unless I am prepared to dedicate the time to outline specifics and state my sources. On the flip side you too should quote your sources on coaching contracts, recruiting department expenditure, medical / training services expenditure etc and place it in the context of the average expenditures of the era leading into and during the Thomas years. Otherwise they can be viewed as speculation or at best repetition of commonly misreported or misrepresented figures. As you are a previous consultant (paid and unpaid) of the club you would be well aware that I shall never expose my sources of information. However I shall expose that I was a paid consultant of the AFL from 1995 to 2002. I shall also expose that I have volunteered to assist St Kilda on several membership drives dating back to 1992 when I worked on the membership committee with Andrew Plympton, Gerry Ryan and Travis Payze was I believe Presdent. Over a 20 year period I have only ever tried to assist the club with the belief that we cannot undo the mistakes of the past; instead we shall learn from them and move on to build a better future.

If you are basing you claim that Grant Thomas was paid $500,000 a year on this:

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/thom ... 1116825928

Then please take into account that this was the salary in his last year and that his salary after reaching multiple finals series and not his starting salary as inferred by others (outraged by the so called corrupt recruitment process) or as the average wage as inferred by you.

I am sincerely saddened and sickened by the slanging match that Saintsational has become.

I am even further saddened when resolution of conflict is proposed through a physical clash to sort things out face to face.

You are obviously a passionate person and have a high intellect but perhaps you may just want to take a deep breath and just enjoy some of the lovely summer weather we are having and return to Saintsational with some constructive suggestions on how we can improve our on and off field performance.

[rodgerfox]

GT's gone. Move on.


Oh wait!

[St Ick]

WOW! Settle down guys!! I have been very busy on business matters and more recently Xmas prep for family and haven't had time to engage. It's been bought to my attention that there are some testosterone issues. Firstly I accept your criticisms and apologise for not being available. I will attempt to go back and answer what I can. If something is personal I see no point in responding. Could I make the subtle point that sometimes information may not necessarily be close to the truth. There are a lot of myths in footy. I truly enjoy the passion and interaction. I am not beyond criticism. How about we leave the past, after all it was 6 years ago. I am more interested in the future. Always happy to answer specific questions about my time, coaching etc but let's just (upfront) agree to disagree about certain aspects, respect each others points of view and move on. I learned a long time ago not to worry about untruths and if it is true I'm happy to admit it and/or do something about it. Please don't get into argy bargy with each other over views on me - its not worth it. If people want to ridicule, abuse and disrespect I'm sure they will settle down if ignored. Robust passionate debate is fine. Apologies I couldn't be quicker to respond to questions. Cheers

Well weren't we all a bit like an over eager pre-teen waiting to get an sms back from a girl he likes....

Anyway, good post, take ur advice and refer it back to this thread. Leave the past (21 pages of mostly rubbish) in the past. What you wrote was a sensible, logical response. If you aren't careful GT you might just win over a few on here. Good stuff...

[BackFromUSA]

Question for Grant: Have you watch the YouTube videos available of our new recruits? Do you any specific thoughts? Are you excited by any in particular and if so why?

[asiu]

lol.
mr fox is back.

hahaha ... good onya.

this thread is a classic.

haha .. now for Bungitons return to the fold.

[asiu]

and what about mr butterrs role in all this.

i can understand gt 'can't go there' but from what i've heard and seen amongst the marching powder fiends up here it doesn't do much for a balanced attitude and even less for clarity in decision making.

[Spinner]

GT's gone. Move on.


Oh wait!

2 years between posts... What username have you been using since...

[The Fireman]

If I had coached the Saints I would think twice before coming on here.

That's because you would have been crap

can't argue with that.

[Pwoit]

GT
Can you start a new post with your answers
This one is going to the drain pipe.

[bergholt]

This thread reminds me of the scene in the film Chopper where Chopper belts his girlfriend then headbutts her mum when she comes to her aid. He then turns to his gf who is lying on the ground and says: "look what you've gone and done to ya poor mum".

LIKE

[markp]

How embarrassing for all the tanty throwers.

[joffaboy]

lol.
mr fox is back.

hahaha ... good onya.

this thread is a classic.

haha .. now for Bungitons return to the fold.

But gaz has anyone ever seen RF and Thommo in the same room???

To Mr Thomas. Unfortunately we have one of these type of threads every off season. They start out with the best of intentions but end up in, as Markp just posted, tanty throwing and pissing contests.

When there is no football to talk about, it is about ego and boredom.

And I agree with Mr Fireman.

Bungy is gone but not forgotten.