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[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I guess we'll have to make do with what we've got then.

The only "key defender" that we are missing from the 2009/2010 period, when our defence was so good and relatively impenetrable, is Zac Dawson. All the rest (Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Blake) are still there and they have the added help of Simpkin now (plus potentially Stanley, Lee, or even Wilkes, who may be much better there with a bit more confidence and better fitness). So while Zac was more valuable than many give him credit for, he wasn't that good that he can't be adequately replaced, surely?

Raph also helped out in the air then, as did Goddard, when he had spells there (although he was playing mainly midfield by then), but now we have the vastly improved Dempster to replace them, as well as potentially/most likely Siposs and now Roberton as well.

I think we as a club need to stop lamenting what we don't have and find a way to make it work with what we do have. No more excuses.

[kimberly saint]

I guess we'll have to make do with what we've got then.

The only "key defender" that we are missing from the 2009/2010 period, when our defence was so good and relatively impenetrable, is Zac Dawson. All the rest (Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Blake) are still there and they have the added help of Simpkin now (plus potentially Stanley, Lee, or even Wilkes, who may be much better there with a bit more confidence and better fitness). So while Zac was more valuable than many give him credit for, he wasn't that good that he can't be adequately replaced, surely?

Raph also helped out in the air then, as did Goddard, when he had spells there (although he was playing mainly midfield by then), but now we have the vastly improved Dempster to replace them, as well as potentially/most likely Siposs and now Roberton as well.

I think we as a club need to stop lamenting what we don't have and find a way to make it work with what we do have. No more excuses.

good points , think the people that matter at the club would had that attitude few weeks ago you would hope

[mildurasaint]

Think Stanley would do well down back for reasons people have suggested, but as a ruck/forward he potentially presents real headaches for the opposition in terms of matching up. If he can string consistent games together injury-wise, I see him as a real weapon that other teams have to worry about. We have other players who can do a serviceable job at full back. Wouldn't mind seeing how he goes in defence as a trial in a nab cup game in case he proves a revelation.

[kimberly saint]

Think Stanley would do well down back for reasons people have suggested, but as a ruck/forward he potentially presents real headaches for the opposition in terms of matching up. If he can string consistent games together injury-wise, I see him as a real weapon that other teams have to worry about. We have other players who can do a serviceable job at full back. Wouldn't mind seeing how he goes in defence as a trial in a nab cup game in case he proves a revelation.

i reakon if stanly body can hold up for a season by mid way threw the year ryhs can be the closest thing to buddy floating around. His pace could really cause major headaches on the rebound for opponents, i really hope they stick with him down forward line.

Would his body hold together better down back ???

[magnifisaint]

Zac Dawson was never an option. He was a mistake

[gringo]

Zac Dawson was never an option. He was a mistake

I really don't get why he was so unpopular. He struggled in strength contests but matched up well on the athletic and tall skinny types. I'm not sure he was a mistake, he got us through a few years in our most sustained successful period. Either he was ok or the guys around him won't need anyone good to replace him- maybe Kosi could just stand there and put his hands up if everyone else can cover him?

[kimberly saint]

Zac Dawson was never an option. He was a mistake

I really don't get why he was so unpopular. He struggled in strength contests but matched up well on the athletic and tall skinny types. I'm not sure he was a mistake, he got us through a few years in our most sustained successful period. Either he was ok or the guys around him won't need anyone good to replace him- maybe Kosi could just stand there and put his hands up if everyone else can cover him?

he looked like the sherminator enough said

[Kickit]

Zac Dawson was never an option. He was a mistake

I really don't get why he was so unpopular. He struggled in strength contests but matched up well on the athletic and tall skinny types. I'm not sure he was a mistake, he got us through a few years in our most sustained successful period. Either he was ok or the guys around him won't need anyone good to replace him- maybe Kosi could just stand there and put his hands up if everyone else can cover him?

I think he was merely/barely OK, and the trouble with Lyon was that once he had something OK he stopped looking for something better.

[magnifisaint]

Zac Dawson was never an option. He was a mistake

I really don't get why he was so unpopular. He struggled in strength contests but matched up well on the athletic and tall skinny types. I'm not sure he was a mistake, he got us through a few years in our most sustained successful period. Either he was ok or the guys around him won't need anyone good to replace him- maybe Kosi could just stand there and put his hands up if everyone else can cover him?

I think he was merely/barely OK, and the trouble with Lyon was that once he had something OK he stopped looking for something better.

so true

[SainterK]

At least he was an option...

It's not so much if Dawson was great, it's what not having him did to the games of others.

[DK27]

We have really miss him.
Dawson was quick, made heaps of spoils, lots of pressure acts... With the ball was a bit shaky (clangers) and missed a tackle or 2 occasionally. Overall, would love him back at the Saints. We have no replacement.

[MC Gusto]

Just reckon Stanley might be an option down back

[samoht]

We have really miss him.
Dawson was quick, made heaps of spoils, lots of pressure acts... With the ball was a bit shaky (clangers) and missed a tackle or 2 occasionally. Overall, would love him back at the Saints. We have no replacement.

Overall, I'd love Dawson to stay at Freo.

Here's my quick appraisal of Dawson Vs Simpkin as fullbacks - a little crude, I know,but, anyway ..

-Dawson is tall, quick, with long arms and makes spoils, that's true (I agree with you here, DK27) so let's give him an 8/10, in this area - while Simpkin only gets a 6/10.
-Dawson, despite his height was hopeless 1 on 1, so gets a 2/10 ; While Simpkin gets a 3/10, despite his size.
-Dawson hand-balled a lot , as in 70% of the time (often getting team mates into trouble) and seemed to lack the confidence to take the game on (by running the ball out himself) So he only gets a 2/10 here; while Simpkin who tends to kick a lot more than he handballs (and is a lovely kick, too) and is not afraid to back himself and take the game on gets an 8/10.

So Dawson overall score is a 12/30 - so he's a 4/10 fullback.

While Simpkin is a 17/20 or close to a 6/10 fullback, not perfect, but clearly ahead of Dawson and he's also a few years younger. Simpkin is also a lot harder at the ball and the contest.

[DK27]

We have really miss him.
Dawson was quick, made heaps of spoils, lots of pressure acts... With the ball was a bit shaky (clangers) and missed a tackle or 2 occasionally. Overall, would love him back at the Saints. We have no replacement.

Overall I'd hate Dawson to be back at the Saints - I'd love him to stay at Freo.

Here's my quick appraisal of Dawson Vs Simpkin as fullbacks - a little crude, I know,but, anyway ..

-Dawson is tall, quick, with long arms and makes spoils, that's true so let's give him an 8/10, in this area - while Simpkin only gets a 6/10.
-Dawson, despite his height was hopeless 1 on 1 So gets a 2/10 ; While Simpkin gets a 3/10, despite his size.
-Dawson hand-balled a lot , as in 70% of the time (often getting team mates into trouble) and seemed to lack the confidence to take the game on (by running the ball out himself) So he gets a 2/10; While Simpkin who tends to kick a lot more than he handballs (and is a lovely kick too) gets an 8/10

So Dawson overall score was a 12/30 - so he's a 4/10 fullback.

While Simpkin is a 17/20 or close to a 6/10 fullback.

Your assessment of Dawson vs. Simpkin is a little delusional. No point going into details as you will not agree anyway.
Simpkin is a solid player and should improve more but we still need a 195+cm tall defender. Dawson is one. They are pretty rare as our quest to find one has shown.

[samoht]

Out of a 195cm average full back - vs a 191 half-decent one - call me delusional ,DK27, but I know who I'd choose.

[mightysainters]

Dawson would give up 2 goals through clangers much like Raph Clarke...

Simpkin does not... I rate Simpkin, he may be undersized but he will be a GOP, better than Dawson.

Dawson's stuff ups were always so glaringly obvious, but Ross stuck fat with him, due to no replacements or any developing key back.

Simpkin got his chance and did very well this year, even with Fisher and Gwilt out.

[Megamaguire]

Just thought i'd put my 5 cents worth in reg: Simpkin. I remember being relieved at the appearance of poor old Matt Maguire in his young days @ St.K. Different to Simpkin - Goose seemed to be born to control the airways. It brought me enormous comfort and joy to witness him deny Matthew Lloyd any contact with the sherrin.
Simpkin appears to be better by foot and skilled enough to successfully take on the game by running out of defence. I can't help trying to imagine them both in the same side, never mind, my point is that young Simpkin gives me the same feeling of comfort and confidence that he is a genuinely valuable defender. I'm hoping we will be loving his mobility for years to come.
I think we still need a bigger/ 'taller' FB to stop the likes of Cloke in their tracks and force opposition plays wide more of the time. I'm hoping St.Kilda will soon have the luxury of playing Simpkin as our third mobile tall in defence. I'd rate Simpkin as our second best defender right now - Glad we still have Jason Blake on board for this year but i think it's Jason's last year.
Reg: Dawson, i thought Lyon got perhaps the maximum out of him that was possible. In this rebuilding phase I don't believe Dawson would be the right fit down back at the Saints anymore. Simpkin is a better player and should be a lot more able to set up play in the years to come.

It's hard waiting for that big KPP in defence who can repel the big forwards but with Simpkin we are one step closer to a very good defence. I like Simpkin there but also agree we need a big unit to add to the mix

Happy Festivus SAINTS!

[samoht]

Dawson Vs Simpkin head to head (courtesy of footywire)

Also See the Dream Team Price and the Dream team score per game at the bottom - Simpkin is worth $207,000 vs Dawson $113,000 !!!!
1 Simpkin is worth approx. 2 Dawsons, despite the 4cms difference in height . Maybe it's footwire's turn to delude itself?

I'm not saying we can't use a taller and bigger bodied defender, in our defence somewhere, of course, megamaguire and DK27 - but I think we all agree that they'd also need to be good.

2012 Stats for Season 2012

Dawson vs Simpkin
18 Games 19
3.3 Kicks Per Game 7.5 .. Wow - +4.2 kicks/game on average. That's massive!!
5.9 Handballs Per Game 4.0
9.3 Disposals Per Game 11.5
2.8 Marks Per Game 4.2 .. +1.4 marks/game
1.2 Tackles Per Game 1.9
0.3 Frees For Per Game 0.7
0.8 Frees Against Per Game 0.7
4.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 3.6
4.6 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 7.4
7.6 Effective Disposals Per Game 8.8 .. and there'd be 4 more effective kicks/game by Simpkin
81.7% Effective Disposals % Per Game 76.5%
1.5 Clangers Per Game 1.6
0.6 Contested Marks Per Game 0.6
0.3 Clearances Per Game 0.2
0.9 Rebound 50s Per Game 2.2 .. 1.3 more rebound 50's per game on average!! A telling difference!
7.7 One Percenters Per Game 6.5
0 Bounces Per Game 0.5
91.1 Time On Ground % Per Game 91.8
$113,300 Dream Team Price $207,600 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! say no more.
33.7 Dream Team Score Per Game 49.3
$183,700 Supercoach Price $249,700
49.0 Supercoach Score Per Game 55.8

[Kickit]

Interesting to note that Dawson has more 1%ers though.

Now I'm pretty sure that a one %er is when the ball is flying in towards Cloke but Dawson doesn't notice because he's looking at an aeroplane flying over, or some chick on the scoreboard, then he realises at the last minute, and impersonates JarJar Binks tripping over his own feet and just getting a fist to it.

Once his reflexes slow down a bit ( as he gets older ) he could be in trouble.

[SaintPav]

Dawson Vs Simpkin head to head (courtesy of footywire)

Also See the Dream Team Price and the Dream team score per game at the bottom - Simpkin is worth $207,000 vs Dawson $113,000 !!!!
1 Simpkin is worth approx. 2 Dawsons, despite the 4cms difference in height . Maybe it's footwire's turn to delude itself?

I'm not saying we can't use a taller and bigger bodied defender, in our defence somewhere, of course, megamaguire and DK27 - but I think we all agree that they'd also need to be good.

2012 Stats for Season 2012

Dawson vs Simpkin
18 Games 19
3.3 Kicks Per Game 7.5 .. Wow - +4.2 kicks/game on average. That's massive!!
5.9 Handballs Per Game 4.0
9.3 Disposals Per Game 11.5
2.8 Marks Per Game 4.2 .. +1.4 marks/game
1.2 Tackles Per Game 1.9
0.3 Frees For Per Game 0.7
0.8 Frees Against Per Game 0.7
4.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 3.6
4.6 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 7.4
7.6 Effective Disposals Per Game 8.8 .. and there'd be 4 more effective kicks/game by Simpkin
81.7% Effective Disposals % Per Game 76.5%
1.5 Clangers Per Game 1.6
0.6 Contested Marks Per Game 0.6
0.3 Clearances Per Game 0.2
0.9 Rebound 50s Per Game 2.2 .. 1.3 more rebound 50's per game on average!! A telling difference!
7.7 One Percenters Per Game 6.5
0 Bounces Per Game 0.5
91.1 Time On Ground % Per Game 91.8
$113,300 Dream Team Price $207,600 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! say no more.
33.7 Dream Team Score Per Game 49.3
$183,700 Supercoach Price $249,700
49.0 Supercoach Score Per Game 55.8

What about goals against and spoils?

[samoht]

What about goals against and spoils?

I don't have those stats, but anyway what conclusions could we possibly draw even if they existed?
i.e. goals against, or even spoils/game(Dawson vs Simpkin) needs to factor in the overall defence, which was much more stable and settled when Fisher and Gwilt were not injured or recovering - and don't forget RL was flooding the backline. to keep the opposition scores low.
Plus Blake was often chosen to play on Riewoldt - and Gwilt and Fisher often got the big bodied players ahead of Dawson.

With a more settled defence next year and with hopefully more support - Simpkin should acquit himself even better - as long as our "ageing" midfield doesn't drop off, of course.
A big bodied defender (like a Rutten etc..) would be handy of course - but we lacked that with Dawson anyway,

[bergholt]

Also See the Dream Team Price and the Dream team score per game at the bottom - Simpkin is worth $207,000 vs Dawson $113,000 !!!!
1 Simpkin is worth approx. 2 Dawsons, despite the 4cms difference in height .

Seriously? Does that mean that Kane Cornes is worth two Simpkins, even though he's eight centimetres shorter, because he's worth $417,000?

I don't think you're allowed to use Dreamteam stats in a "serious" football discussion.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Not that it matters, but if we still had him here then that would free up the likes of Simpkin to go third up and help him out, as they did in previous years. I haven't seen much of him from this year, but I did see earlier in the year that Zac was ranked 2nd in the league for 1%ers and I haven't heard of anyone kicking big bag on him. We on the other hand had bags of goals kicked on us on almost a weekly basis.

I also believe he would have benefited considerably by getting more of a license to go for the ball under Watters, had he stayed. As far as I was concerned, much of the problems he had were when he would always look to initiate body contact, even when he was in a position to simply go for the ball himself (especially when running back with the flight). If Watters had taught/encouraged him to simply go for/attack the ball more (which I believe he would have, like he reportedly encouraged Dempster to go for his marks more, instead of punching (and how well has that worked out!) then that would have greatly reduced the need for him to get involved in wrestles that he was ill-equipped for. He then would have been playing to his strengths much more (his height, speed and athleticism, which were all very very good), instead of playing to his greatest weakness.

Many, many times last year (for us) Zac was in a position to simply jump at the ball and punch it away, or mark it (especially when running back with the flight), but instead took his eye off the ball and looked for the body and tried to wrestle and it was ridiculously stupid and often backfired, but I believe that must have been what he had been instructed to do. I think he could have "unlearned" that and been much better for it (as Dempster was this year, when encouraged to be more positive and go for his marks more by Watters). I don't believe that Zac's weaknesses are "incurable" and I honestly believe that Watters could have been really good for him.

But now, we've got to make do with what we've got, not worry about what we don't have.

[samoht]

Bottom Line..
The exchange rate is -
1 Simpkin = 2 Zacs according to footywire's Dream Team Score. They might be delusional, however, as I already pointed out, in that earlier post ....(it should be 3 Zacs)

Seriously though - we probably still need that one big bodied defender that we've always lacked - probably since Maguire left.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Luke Penny comeback?

If the club really is trialling Rhys there, we may not even need him to be the one playing at FB. Maybe he could be the one in the pocket, like Dustin Fletcher (who rarely plays FB these days) and his instruction would be to simply stay in the area as much as possible and impact as many nearby marking contests as he can, with his speed to get to them, leap once he gets to them, and reach, to finish it off. It would be like when Mac pushes back there to help out, but in Rhys' case he would be there permanently and would likely be able to impact a lot more marking contests than Mac does when pushing back from the ruck.

Mac may have to travel 70m to get back there, Rhys might only have to travel 10-15m, which he could do in as little as 2 seconds.

Lee of course could probably very easily (probably more easily, as he's played plenty in defence before) play a similar role, as he reportedly has a huge leap as well, but he is that 3 inches or so shorter than Rhys, so may not be quite as effective at it and I think I'd rather him kicking for goal than Rhys, on what we saw (accuracy-wise) from the two of them this year.