Rucking matters

[Dave McNamara]

For those who like brevity, the summary is at the bottom of this post... please scoll down to "So..."

I still think Ben has a significant role to play. He's still developing even though he's played 70 odd games. Our lack of depth in the area exposed young Ben to the main responsibilities before he was truly ready. The upside is that he's made a good fist of things and I think 2013 could be his breakout year. His strengths are his strong hands, great endurance and the fact that he can go forward and kick a goal. He's certainly not as quick or athletic as the other two, but he's still an important piece of the puzzle. All three of them rotating through the forward line and roaming around the ground will certainly stretch the opposition.

Agreed WW. I suspect the new rules won't be the issue for Ben that we are all fearing.

He's no Rhys Lightening, but isn't as slow as his running style makes him look.

Ben's elite fitness already sees him improve as matches drag on and his opponents tire. He's already very good in general play around the ground. But more and more he'll be the first ruckman to reach a contest, and with the new rules against wrestling, his opponents will now have trouble shifting him out of the prime position.

I reckon that contrary to popular opinion, Ben can jump, and it's more issues with timing the jump... and the timing thing extends from focusing too much on the other ruckman and not on the ball.

Also, as was shown in an excellent recent post, the stats show that just winning the taps is meaningless.

IMHO virtually the only damaging tap is one down the throat of a player who is on the move, and so very hard for the opposition to grab. If the ruckman can also then help clear a path... well..., midfielder heaven... But to tap with that level of control and vision is very, very hard..., it's far easier to just get hand on ball and so achieve a stat. Therefore, IMHO, if a ruckman is losing the taps, it's ok, as long as he's applying enough pressure to stop the other bloke from spoon-feeding his mids.

Spoon feeding your mids seems to be an almost lost rucking art. Can anyone name one current or even recent ruckman who can/could consistently do this...? Very early days..., but there seems to be some indications that young Lou Pierce may eventually be such a ruckman(?) If so..., now that'd be the ruck stats that would really count...


So...
Will the new rules help or hinder or be irrelevant to the Owl?
Owl can jump... timing and focusing too much on the other bloke is his biggest problem at centre bounces.
Losing the taps doesn't matter as long as you can prevent you opponent from spoon feeding his mids.
Spoon feeding your mids is real tap work, is very very hard to do consistently, and is an almost lost art.
Who can do it today? I say no one currently..., which is backed up by the stats as per Samo's excellent thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=78271&p=1271785&hil ... s#p1271766.
Maybe Lou Peirce can eventually be such a ruckman?

I'm really interested to hear what others here on SS think about these observations. So, please... dicsuss...



(Hey Grant, once you've finished discussing finances with Barks, very keen to hear your thoughts.)

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Personally, I thought that prior to his injuries this year, Rhys was clearly superior to Ben in the centre bounces (relative to how much time they were spending there), due to the fact that, whether Ben has a leap or not, Rhys just has a considerably bigger one. This meant that when Rhys was getting hitouts, he was often winning them more decisively, because his hand was often that few inches, or even a foot or more higher than the hand of whoever he was rucking against, which meant that it was easier for him to hit the ball down in whatever direction he wanted to. Consequently he was able to, as you say, hit the ball down the throat of Lenny, or whoever, on a number of occasions. Give them armchair service.

On the other hand, I rarely saw Mac getting his hand well above whoever he was rucking against and getting a clear hitout, simply because he doesn't have as big a leap as Rhys.

The most stark example of this was in the NAB Challenge match at Carlton, against Collingwood, a couple of weeks before R1, when Mac had been given a lesson in rucking by Jolly in the first half, but then Mac was subbed off at half time and Rhys rucked for the 2nd half and in the centre bounces made Jolly look like he had lead in his shoes. Rhys got so much higher than Jolly at some of those centre bounces it wasn't funny and I'm not sure Jolly got his hands to a single centre bounce hitout for the entire half. It was like Rhys was using him as one of those rucking training bags that they jump on at training. On at least a couple of occasions his hand was a good two feet higher than Jolly's, whereas Mac had been getting to the same sort of height as Jolly.

When Rhys got his hitouts this year, they were regularly very obvious. It was very clear that he had won it, whereas I suspect most of Mac's hitouts (not counting the ones when the bounce favoured him and let him have a free hit at it basically) you would have to have a good look at the replay to see if he'd won it or not, because his hand would be right next to the hand of whoever he was rucking against, making it harder for him to get a decisive hitout to advantage.

Whether Mac will be able to improve in the centre bounces is a genuine query I have, because to me he either doesn't have much of a leap, or as you are suggesting, doesn't time it well and he's also not that tall (at 200cm) compared to others who are in the ruck these days (most are taller than 200cm these days, even if not by much). Around the ground he was better than Rhys, due to his extra bulk and strength and liking for the physical contest, but how much that is going to be affected by these new ruck rules is yet to be determined.

For me, a lot of it is going to depend on Mac improving his smarts and wilyness, positioning and timing and so on, which I expect will come with more experience, because he's going to need all the things he can get going for him that he can.

It will be very interesting to see how Hickey goes once he starts playing senior games, because if he outperforms Mac in the ruck, then we could eventually find ourselves in the situation North were, when Goldstein basically took over from Hamish Macintosh, through simply outperforming him.

That ought to be a while off though, if it happens at all, so Mac ought to have at least a couple more years to really show everyone what he's got and to continue to improve his rucking.

I can see him having a big year next year. He seems like he's really primed for it.

[plugger66]

I may not know much but Ben McEvoy is a better all around ruckman than anyone else at the club at te moment. Matter of fact Bens all round skills will see him Captain the club in either 2014 or 15 IMO.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

All round he certainly has it over Rhys (although he ought to, as Rhys was only 21 this year and has much less experience, ditto Hickey, who only took up the game 4 years ago) and most seem to agree that Mac could take over the captaincy from Roo, but what happens if the new ruck rules make it harder for him and Hickey comes on really well, with his extra athleticism and equally good marking and endurance and ends up outperforming Ben in say 2-3 years time? That could be pretty awkward, if Ben is captaining the club, but isn't the best option in the ruck anymore.

These days you can frequently get someone to play in the ruck very cheaply, yet we paid a very high price for Hickey, so the club obviously has seriously high expectations for him. There's no way we would have given up pick 13 in the draft to get him if we thought he was just going to play a bit-part, or be "back-up", in the VFL, long-term, so it will be very interesting and potentially pretty exciting to see how things unfold over the next few years, now that we have some genuine depth in that area.

Mac certainly has the opportunity to "own it" though, given that the no.1 role is his now and is most likely to be for at least the next year or two.

[dragit]

Spoon feeding your mids seems to be an almost lost rucking art. Can anyone name one current or even recent ruckman who can/could consistently do this...? Very early days..., but there seems to be some indications that young Lou Pierce may eventually be such a ruckman(?) If so..., now that'd be the ruck stats that would really count...

Interesting discussion Dave,
I just don't think it's possible to consistently spoon feed tap outs anymore, it's not like there aren't any decent ruckmen getting around, the game has just changed so much, so much more congested... And the defensive side of midfielders is such a focus, particularly in clearance situations, probably why decent clearances are so highly sought.

[Saintersss]

I rate Ben highly, however I question how many talls we can fit into our side. I just don't think you can play two genuine ruckman in a side with the new interchange rules (especially if they further reduce it to 2 and 2 as they alluding to). And the fact is, neither Hickey or McEvoy can play any other position on the ground except for the bench.

[SainterK]

I still wonder what he says to the mids prior to a centre bounce...

[bergholt]

All round he certainly has it over Rhys (although he ought to, as Rhys was only 21 this year and has much less experience, ditto Hickey, who only took up the game 4 years ago) and most seem to agree that Mac could take over the captaincy from Roo, but what happens if the new ruck rules make it harder for him and Hickey comes on really well, with his extra athleticism and equally good marking and endurance and ends up outperforming Ben in say 2-3 years time? That could be pretty awkward, if Ben is captaining the club, but isn't the best option in the ruck anymore.

Given that you only get one true ruckman in the side, and that we have both Stanley and Hickey waiting in the wings, I'd say this is not an unlikely possibility.

If I was Big Ben, I'd be working pretty hard on my skills as a forward because this is quite likely to be where we need him. Given his strong marking and decent tank, I wonder even if he can play as a straight-running CHF. Then in three years the absolute best case would be that we have:

FF: Stanley (25), Lee (25)[/White (21)]
HF: McEvoy (26)
HB: Lever (22), Ferguson (23)
FB: Traded-In Fullback (27+)
R: Hickey (25)

Riewoldt, Kosi and Fisher gone, and basically irreplaceable as a combo, but all these blokes would theoretically be 194cm+ but also relatively mobile - and still pretty young. Three legit ruck options on the park, and perhaps Lever could pinch-hit also if required.

This is obviously the absolute best case. There's no way all these guys make it because the law of averages says that's not likely. Still, it's nice to dream.

[noob]

McEvoy is pretty good at ground level for a big guy but He lacks speeds to play key position.

[AccidentallyTim]

In a game a few years back, against the hawks down at York Park where Armo collected 3 votes in a 2nd string side Big Ben played pretty well in the forward half that game.

Played as the main target forward of centre iirc?

Very young back then as I think it was '09 this happened. I remember thinking at the time that this giant kid could have developed as a forward.

Huge tank, great hands, ok field kicking but I believe he is a good set shot also. Seems to have a decent routine but can spray a few so I am not suggesting Ben will be a power forward for the future.

Just that he has the correct profile to do the job if required.

Speed is not his bread and butter but he covers the ground so well and can move laterally effectively, I wouldn't think that combined with his huge frame this wouldn't be a huge disadvantage.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I think it's ruck or bust for Mac, especially as we're likely to have Stanley in the side as well, who can give that chop-out in the ruck to someone like Hickey, if he happened to be in the no.1 role, as I expect that in the short term we will have too many options up forward in Roo, Wilkes, Stanley, Lee, Kosi, (although I don't see it being an issue in the next couple of years, as I doubt Hickey will come on that strongly that quickly), but after that we will hopefully have White, Lee and Stanley there (and maybe even Wilkes, if he really comes on) and I don't think there would be room for Mac in that forward line either, if they all come on as expected/hoped.

If he improved his forward line play that would of course help, but I just don't think he's mobile or quick enough to be a viable option there permanently, especially if we already had Stanley in the forward line, who can do that relief rucking when needed.

He needs to get it done in the ruck.

[St Ick]

Both Hickey and Ben have outstanding endurance for big men. With interchange changes, the wont need many rests imo. Ben or Hickey could play on Tippett or Cox. They should compliment each other nicely.

Where it leaves Rhys I'm not sure.

[plugger66]

Both Hickey and Ben have outstanding endurance for big men. With interchange changes, the wont need many rests imo. Ben or Hickey could play on Tippett or Cox. They should compliment each other nicely.

Where it leaves Rhys I'm not sure.

I think the problem is that certainly Ben cant play anywhere else apart from very short periods so if they both play where does the other player actually play.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

That is why I wonder about how much confidence the club has in Mac's rucking ability long term, especially as those he comes up against get progressively taller and/or more athletic. The age of the 200cm "lumbering ruckman" is very quickly coming to a close, I would suggest, even if they have good endurance. He will probably be one of the very last of that "breed". I don't personally see he and Hickey ever playing in the same side together consistently (unless Hickey has the ability to play forward- which he might, as his marking is a real strength and looks just as strong as Mac's and he is more mobile/agile), especially if Stanley is also in there, and particularly now that we've spent up pretty big on Lee and White, for the future forward line, to go with Roo, Wilkes, Stanley and Kosi, who are already there.

So the fact that the club went out and spent so much (draft pick wise) to get someone who is likely to be able to play for 8-10 years, in Hickey, and who could also play almost immediately, rather than just someone cheaply, who could be "depth"/back-up, in the VFL, suggests to me that we may have genuine concerns about Mac's rucking going forward, unless they really think we can successfully have all of Mac, Stanley and Hickey in the same side, or have major concerns on Rhys' durability (which I have heard may have been a consideration, and fair enough, as he has struggled to play 5 games in a row in recent years).

I was told when we got him that the club see Hickey as the "prototype ruckman of the future" due to his mobility, athleticism and endurance and that that became even more the case after the AFL changed the rucking rules for next year onwards, just a few days before we eventually got him. I don't think we would have gone out and targeted someone like that and paid a high price for them if we didn't have big plans for him.

So the heat will certainly be on Mac I expect and I think that will only be good for him and the club and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he responds from next year. As I said earlier, I get the feeling (especially after reading the article on him the other day) that he is primed to really step it up next year. If not necessarily in the hitouts department, then at least around the ground. I think he's going to play some inspired footy and hopefully his rucking will improve as well. It will help our midfield considerably if it does.

[sunsaint]

That is why I wonder about how much confidence the club has in Mac's rucking ability long term, especially as those he comes up against get progressively taller and/or more athletic. The age of the 200cm "lumbering ruckman" is very quickly coming to a close,

snip

which is why I disagree with your summation of McEvoy
he IS mobile, he has clean hands, & he IS a good kick for goal and can play as a forward NOW (as he does)
the club isnt suddenly recruiting for what you conclude is defecit in McEvoys' ability rather they are addressing the "height" of our list
2013 we will definitely lose Kosi & Blake, Roo & Fisher maybe a year after, with those guys gone we have no one
and to be honest only Roo would be considered a tall in his position

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I'm not suggesting that he isn't mobile at all, but he is on the "lumbering" side, as opposed to the "athletic" side and isn't that tall by modern ruck standards (200cm) and I wouldn't want him playing permanently or mostly forward, as he is just not quick, athletic or agile enough to play that role, IMO. I certainly wouldn't have him in there ahead of any of Roo, Wilkes, Stanley, Lee, or even Kosi, if we were to play a game tomorrow and if we are planning on him playing permanently forward in 2-3 years time, I think we'd be in trouble. If he's playing, it needs to be mainly in the ruck, IMO, because I would expect that we would have better options for the forward line.

For the post-Roo era (which could be a while off yet- Nick has just signed for two more years and says he wants to go on for longer than that, so I take it his body is feeling pretty good and that he is confident of the treatments he's had on his knees continuing to help them considerably) the club would be banking on Stanley, Lee and White being our taller options up forward, I expect, having invested a fair amount in them. As I said though, if Hickey is able to play there successfully, then that could be another option, but I'd hope they will all be in there ahead of Mac by that stage, unless his forward play improves considerably by then, to be able to play that role for most of the time.

the club isnt suddenly recruiting for what you conclude is defecit in McEvoys' ability rather they are addressing the "height" of our list

You are stating that as a fact. Do you know that to be a fact?

I only said that I thought what I was suggesting was a possibility, due to the fact that Mac does tend to get badly beaten in the ruck on a regular basis and that that may not change as those he's going to be coming up against tend to get taller and/or more athletic, and under the new rules, which may make it harder for him, yet here you are basically stating that that is not a possibility at all.

So do you know that to be true, that that is not at all a concern for the club in any way, or is it just your opinion, stated as a fact?

2013 we will definitely lose Kosi & Blake, Roo & Fisher maybe a year after, with those guys gone we have no one
and to be honest only Roo would be considered a tall in his position

I'm extremely well aware of the state of our lists, but as I said, clubs don't tend to spend up big on someone unless they have big and specific plans for them and if we were simply wanting to add to our KPP stocks, as you seem to be suggesting, by mentioning Nick, Blakey, Kosi and Chips, who play key position most of the time, then I imagine we would have spent up big on someone that likewise generally plays key position, not someone who generally plays in the ruck. I think the club would be more specific when giving up a pick as high as 13 than to just do so because they are over a certain height.

As far as I'm aware we got Hickey for his ruckwork and really rate his potential abilities and athletic qualities for that role and I would be surprised if we got him to play mainly forward, or to free up Mac to play mainly forward, or that we'd play both of them, as well as Stanley, who can play those ruck minutes, which is why I posed the question I did. We also need to remember that when we got Hickey we had already gotten 195cm Tom Lee, to bolster of future forward stocks, and were also very much hoping to get Mitch Brown, which would have meant that we wouldn't have had any plans for Rhys to play down back at that stage, I don't imagine, so at the time we got Hickey, I expect the club would have been planning for Rhys to be playing forward, so I'd be quite surprised if they were planning on us playing all of Ben, Hickey and Rhys in the same team going forward, but like I said, I didn't state it as a fact, so it was just what I thought was a reasonable question.

If you know that it is 100% not the case and that the club has no concerns about it at all then that is great, both for Mac and for us as a club.

[Middo]

I may not know much but Ben McEvoy is a better all around ruckman than anyone else at the club at te moment. Matter of fact Bens all round skills will see him Captain the club in either 2014 or 15 IMO.

"I may not know much but Ben McEvoy "

You got that right Mr Obvious ....

[plugger66]

I may not know much but Ben McEvoy is a better all around ruckman than anyone else at the club at te moment. Matter of fact Bens all round skills will see him Captain the club in either 2014 or 15 IMO.

"I may not know much but Ben McEvoy "

You got that right Mr Obvious ....

You are hilarious. All I ask is when try and be funny we are laughing with you and not at you. And like I said previously while you keep having a go at me its give me hope that I am actually things that make sense. I really do hope you are only about 12 years old because it is unfair on your parents if you are over 18. All that money on schooling and no rewards. That's 2 reasons to feel sorry for them now.

[skeptic]

I think btw McEvoy, Stanley and Hickey...

one of them may have to force their way into the team as a backman

I doubt it but I wonder if SW is considering something along the lines of having a tallish player that can ruck be available in every part of the ground at the expence of a true round the grounds ruck e.g. ala Stanley up forward, rucking the forward half, McEvoy around CHB rucking the back and Hickey in the centre as a go between.

I doubt it, it seems very complicated

[Zed]

Other clubs would love to get their hands on big Ben. He s your old fashioned ruckman. The game is swinging back to favour hIs style with tall forwards taking the ruck option in the forward line he can drop back and block up the defence. Just like Steven King used to do against us when he played for the cats.

[gringo]

The concern is that the new rule which makes it easier for the athletic rucks is that the rucks can't make contact before the ball is in the air so the old dinosaur rucks lose out. I think there will be a place for guys like Ben still to be the grunt ruck but second rucks will have to be extra talls. Ben has never done well in wrestling contests so may end up better off. Jolly will be a big loser in the new rules as he has been pushing guys over sideways for years. Mummy and Sandilands will probably be better off because their size will allow them first hands on the ball. Most of these rules sound like they are the end of a certain type but good ones adapt.

[gringo]

Meant to add that ruckwork will be more about the positioning before the bounce and then good ability to read the ball coming down- if he's a good mark should be good at that.

[8856brother]

Big Boy is a quality falconer. Quite possibly number 1 in the AFL.

[bobmurray]

Rucking matters quite a lot........

if your ruckman is winning the ruck and tapping the ball down to his mids then that gives the side a huge advantage...anything less than that then rucking matters a lot less...

[samoht]

Rucking matters quite a lot........

if your ruckman is winning the ruck and tapping the ball down to his mids then that gives the side a huge advantage...anything less than that then rucking matters a lot less...

For every tap that goes down his mids throat there's also one that goes straight down the opposition mid's throat.
Rucking is such an inexact science - the reality is the tap goes straight into a jumble of closely spaced players most of the time and the clearance players do most of the work.