Considered criticisms of the Thommo years

[hungry for a premiership]

GT brought somewhat of a revolution to the St.K FC and did a lot of great things, but he would be the first to admit he's not without his flaws. What are they?

His strengths were great: He was/is first class when it comes to dealing with / teaching young men how to grow and mature into adults - he's a great teacher of kids - and his brand of footy is an exciting one to watch.

IMHO, he had 3 clear flaws / weaknesses -

1.) Not enough credence given to sports-science / player management / coaching infrastructure.

2.) Lack of match-day tactical nous

3.) Too much love given to only a certain few players who he would select above all others even if they were carrying injuries. As evidence of this I cite Brent Guerra and Heath Black, two gun players who I felt weren't given a fair opportunity by Thommo because they weren't a part of his special group.

StThommo, as I said on your other thread, I am thankful from the bottom of my heart for those great times in 04-05 that you brought us, and its absolutely saintsational that would would come on here and talk to us, but OMG the grovelling on that last thread was enough to make me want to puke, and I just had to bring some balance back. I hope you stick around and of course, I'd love to know what you think of my three fair, considered criticisms of your time as coach!

-HFAP

[plugger66]

Reckon you are very tough on the first one. Doubt we had the money at that stage to do much about that. Also i cant rmember Heath Black missing to many games under GT or even Guerra. Yes they both left but I thought they were played often when with us.

[hungry for a premiership]

Reckon you are very tough on the first one. Doubt we had the money at that stage to do much about that. Also i cant rmember Heath Black missing to many games under GT or even Guerra. Yes they both left but I thought they were played often when with us.

The first one is mainly about all the injuries that arguably cost us the flag in '05. sure, you can say we were just 'unlucky,' but with so many soft-tissue injuries over so long a period, there comes a point when you've got to blame lack of player management / coaching staff, and at the end of the day that's the coaches responsibility.

With Guerra and Black, true they were played regularly, I just remember how we tried to trade him back to Freo, the deal didnt get done, and then the next year it just felt like he was never really included as part of the group, coz everyone knew he'd be traded next year. Maybe it was he who wanted to go, and not GT, I' don't know. Guerra same thing. Just felt that he hadnt been 'earmarked' by thommo but for all the wrong reasons. He was/is a gun player, everyone could see it, yet thommo didn't really like him (or at least I got this impression) and never really semmed to see his true value.


What about point 2??

[plugger66]

Reckon you are very tough on the first one. Doubt we had the money at that stage to do much about that. Also i cant rmember Heath Black missing to many games under GT or even Guerra. Yes they both left but I thought they were played often when with us.

The first one is mainly about all the injuries that arguably cost us the flag in '05. sure, you can say we were just 'unlucky,' but with so many soft-tissue injuries over so long a period, there comes a point when you've got to blame lack of player management / coaching staff, and at the end of the day that's the coaches responsibility.

With Guerra and Black, true they were played regularly, I just remember how we tried to trade him back to Freo, the deal didnt get done, and then the next year it just felt like he was never really included as part of the group, coz everyone knew he'd be traded next year. Maybe it was he who wanted to go, and not GT, I' don't know. Guerra same thing. Just felt that he hadnt been 'earmarked' by thommo but for all the wrong reasons. He was/is a gun player, everyone could see it, yet thommo didn't really like him (or at least I got this impression) and never really semmed to see his true value.


What about point 2??

I didnt answer point 2 because I struggle with that one whoever coaches. He didnt look out coached in the first 10 games in 2004 and I doubt we were that much better than the opposition that anyone could of coached us. And still say there was little he could do regarding point one. Maybe wrong on that one but I reckon if he comes on here he may say he wasnt given a lot of money in those areas.

[gringo]

I would have thought his biggest failing was the too many hats -list managing etc. were all kept by him- he didn't like to outsource when he could do it in house. I'm the same and hate the incompetence of others and have a fairly over inflated self belief. It was probably gave him the confidence to take the reins in the first place but was ultimately a flaw in an environment where plenty need input. Kevin Rudd syndrome apparently. I would do it the same by the way.

[matrix]

want a job done properly do it yourself syndrome
im the same gringo
but soon the spinning plates topple

[hungry for a premiership]

Yep, and this ultimately led to him being worn out and sleep deprived....

[BigMart]

Black and Guerra both started out OK

I reckon their discipline on/off field wavered in their final years.... Guerra has made the most out of his third chance, it happens. It turns out, Black was dealing with a few issues...I saw it first hand when I came across him pissed with Lawrence one night... He was absolutely moronic (hanging out with Lawrence wouldn't help)

Both good AFL footballers, both played some good footy whilst at StK. especially 2004

[defacto]

Black and Guerra both started out OK

I reckon their discipline on/off field wavered in their final years.... Guerra has made the most out of his third chance, it happens. It turns out, Black was dealing with a few issues...I saw it first hand when I came across him pissed with Lawrence one night... He was absolutely moronic (hanging out with Lawrence wouldn't help)

Both good AFL footballers, both played some good footy whilst at StK. especially 2004

black is an absolute drop kick. feel so sorry for his family.

[Con Gorozidis]

Hindsight heroes
My only 'criticism' ( like im qualified) is too many hats and not delegating and having more experts in other roles.

[cwrcyn]

His reluctance to embrace the Tasmanian experiment ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Not body slamming Patrick Smith

Not body slamming Andrew Demetriou

Not publicly blasting Mick Malthouse enough when he butted his nose into the Capuano affair.

He may have physically pushed some players too hard, too soon (Kosi, X), but I know this could be debated, as I suspect both those players were not as dedicated to rehab programs as some others were.

As for his internal dealings with the board and the president regarding his 'many hats', without being there in the inner sanctum, it's hard to know what really went on. A strength and a weakness, perhaps. Thompson at Geelong was similar, and they managed to get Neil Balme in and it worked out well.







.

[StThomo]

GT brought somewhat of a revolution to the St.K FC and did a lot of great things, but he would be the first to admit he's not without his flaws. What are they?

His strengths were great: He was/is first class when it comes to dealing with / teaching young men how to grow and mature into adults - he's a great teacher of kids - and his brand of footy is an exciting one to watch.

IMHO, he had 3 clear flaws / weaknesses -

1.) Not enough credence given to sports-science / player management / coaching infrastructure.

2.) Lack of match-day tactical nous

3.) Too much love given to only a certain few players who he would select above all others even if they were carrying injuries. As evidence of this I cite Brent Guerra and Heath Black, two gun players who I felt weren't given a fair opportunity by Thommo because they weren't a part of his special group.

StThommo, as I said on your other thread, I am thankful from the bottom of my heart for those great times in 04-05 that you brought us, and its absolutely saintsational that would would come on here and talk to us, but OMG the grovelling on that last thread was enough to make me want to puke, and I just had to bring some balance back. I hope you stick around and of course, I'd love to know what you think of my three fair, considered criticisms of your time as coach!

-HFAP

There are a lot of myths in footy - more than any other industry ive been involved in. To continually hear the way we played as "exciting to watch" doesnt clearly define the courage and effort of the playing group and I know that doesnt sit well with them. The team was incredibly brave and selfless. I tend to put it down to the supporters being starved of dominating teams like Carl, Ess, Coll & Rich who historically "owned" us. Your comments are fair and understandable however I have more than 3 clear flaws so I appreciate the favorable consiuderation there. I relation to the points I make the following remarks:
1.) We initiated altitude training in Potchestroom Sth Africa along with overseas training camps (also founded community camps you may remember). For memory we were either 14th or 15th in footy department spend which severely affected our ability to research, develop and invest in sports science albeit we implemented several intiiatives such as the "Wellness Program". I clearly remember pleading to the Board from 2000 as a Director until 2006 as coach that we must support our emerging, talented list with a commensurate level of off-field infrastructure & support to maximise their potential. I consider our player management strategies to have been "in-front-of-the-game". We must remember that most of the, lets call them "key" injuries - without any disrespect to lesser lights - were a result of knees, shoulders, broken legs, broken jaws and collision injuries. The soft tissue legend is exaggerated. Our Doctor is still there. Our physio was recruited by the Suns and still heads up their training regime. I still made some poor decisions in Training Services and contrary to popular belief it was by delegating and giving autonomy rather than too much control. Ask them, ask Bevo ask any staff member of the time. I completely subscribe to delegation. I was/am demanding - no mystery there. Our coaching/management regime was ahead of its time.
2.) Agree completely. I was heavily focussed on attitude and effort and at times it was to the detriment of game nuances. However I would like to think that the number of games "affected" by A&E against "match-day nous" was unanimous. I can equally remember several instances of terrific strategic planning that impacted the result and most would never have picked it up. Match day is tactically over rated outside what you have planned for and changing the outcome with matchups or a tactic during the game is more legend than fact. In essence I made sure they came to play. Whilst I was responsible for overall performance I allowed Bundy, Crippa, Jason, Burkey, Wal, Micky & others manage their responsibilities be it offence or defence when we coached to that structure or forwards, backs or midfielders under that system.
3.) Guilty as charged your Honor! Blacky & Goo were coached and managed very hard by me. I would equally be surprised if they didnt appreciate it in hindsight. Sometimes players need another last chance environment - such as Goo - for the penny to drop whilst others had some private issues that made preparation and commitment to the game difficult such as Blacky. We were an anywhere, anytime, anyhow team and the leaders just lost confidence in consistency of effort and reliability. Both on their day were terrific players and very valuable - some get through the net. Regarding the "love' thing? I'll wear that albeit its not a term that is usually related to my coaching style. Im like everyone else I suppose & can get seduced by effort & attitude of some such as Lenny (guilty), Roo (guilty), Vossy (guilty), Goose (guilty), Sammy (guilty), Neil (guilty), Bally (guilty), Powelly (guilty), Max (guilty), Bakes (guilty) etc etc to name a few.
Your views are considered, respectful and have merit. I had some weaknesses and some strengths. Undoubtably some things could have been handled better which affected the results. Equally there was some outstanding things achieved beyond expectation that have somewhat clouded external reality.
Great questions "HFAP" and thanks for the opportunity to discuss them with you and the fans. Hope they provide some clarity and understanding - maybe even some other robust debates which is fine!!
Cheers

[St Ick]

My criticism at the time was that we had the best list but never a plan B in the coaches box. Often I'd feel like we were outcoached.

I recall the many hats Thommo used to wear, remember we didnt have great membership numbers and were trying to get ourselves out of a financial hole too.

I always thought GT was a brilliant list manager, but not so much coach. Which in hindsight is a tough call and probably not warranted. I don't look back on the GT era and think, man I wish that bloke was never at St Kilda.

Edit: just thought i'd edit this post and mention how great that response is from Thommo just above this comment. Takes a real man to admit flaws and discuss them openly and agree with your entire post!

[stinger]

3.) Too much love given to only a certain few players who he would select above all others even if they were carrying injuries. As evidence of this I cite Brent Guerra and Heath Black, two gun players who I felt weren't given a fair opportunity by Thommo because they weren't a part of his special group.

StThommo, as I said on your other thread, I am thankful from the bottom of my heart for those great times in 04-05 that you brought us, and its absolutely saintsational that would would come on here and talk to us, but OMG the grovelling on that last thread was enough to make me want to puke, and I just had to bring some balance back. I hope you stick around and of course, I'd love to know what you think of my three fair, considered criticisms of your time as coach!

-HFAP

what a steaming load of bull manure,,,,guerra dogged it in the swans prelim final game....utter coward on that day imhfo...a disgrace to the saints uniform....i was glad to see the back of the prick....


black didn't want to be there.....


ps......i have since read gt's reply....doesn't make me want to change mine....but agree with st ick

[StThomo]

His reluctance to embrace the Tasmanian experiment ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Not body slamming Patrick Smith

Not body slamming Andrew Demetriou

Not publicly blasting Mick Malthouse enough when he butted his nose into the Capuano affair.

He may have physically pushed some players too hard, too soon (Kosi, X), but I know this could be debated, as I suspect both those players were not as dedicated to rehab programs as some others were.

As for his internal dealings with the board and the president regarding his 'many hats', without being there in the inner sanctum, it's hard to know what really went on. A strength and a weakness, perhaps. Thompson at Geelong was similar, and they managed to get Neil Balme in and it worked out well.

Guilty CWRCYN.
I could not believe for the life of me that a board and executive would give away 2 home games to very difficult interstate teams like Port & Freo (who were very strong) at the expense of Etihad where we had an incredible record. I understood the commercials - better than most - however it was a classic example of a board/Exec compromising a moment in time opportunity for the sake of revenue which could have been developed in other areas. Perhaps my attitude affected team performance and if so I would regret that. The players of the time would be anle to answer that best. I was promised that if we accepted the initial couple of years we would make money and leave it. The contract was then given another 3 years without consultation with the footy department which somewhat riled all of us and the players felt let down from the arrangement.





.

[spert]

GT (and Butters) grabbed the club by the scruff of the neck and made it into a competitive entity which gained respect. He had many strengths working with people and instilling self-belief, he built up a good team who could win and win well. Unfortunately he fell for the old trap of trying to be everything to everyone and needed to delegate a lot more to people with expert skills in different areas ( fitness, injury management, PR etc etc). He should have just knuckled down to coaching and let someone else do the talking for him. It's all history now, and we need to get behind Watters and his crew, as I feel there are good times ahead.

[stinger]

i hope so...but then...i always do....

[shmic_s]

Fantastic thread.

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions StThomo!

[markp]

If you are bold and controversial, but ultimately come up short, people (myself included) are inevitably going to find fault and have many criticisms.... All the could've-should've-would'ves and hindsight floggery will eventually send you nuts.

But I think this Theodore Roosevelt quote sums it up best...

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Not a cold and timid soul, was GT.

[SainterK]

Biggest criticism...

Being a bit too honest about your appreciation for a bit of a cocktail of caffeine/red wine/sleeping pills...

It confused me why you went public about it, it's like you half expected other coaches to say 'yeah me too' and it never came?

I'm sure you were professional and worked really hard, but this admission was a miss for mine.

Sometimes things a better left unsaid.

Cheers.

[asiu]

the cost of openness IS vulnerability.

... can't have it both ways.

[BackFromUSA]

Just backing up StThomo (Grant) here on one point in particular.

Bevo always said that Grant gave him the freedon to make his choices ... much more so than previous coaches. He gave many examples at the chinese restaurant dinner I hosted to help raise the initial funding to continue Saintsational so that it didn't all have to come out of Damo's fathers pocket. God bless John. I still see him at Saints functions.

IMHO the recruiting during this era was more hit than miss with some absolute beauties late in the draft e.g. Sam Fisher, but other early valuable draft picks cruelled by injury.

The perception of Grant wearing too many hats came from his justifiably heavy involvement in list management / contracts which was fair enough IMHO because he was trying to ensure the playing list stayed together physically, spiritually and mentally.

Interestingly I believe the financial divide at Essendon and Swans due to their recruitment of Goddard and Tippett will potentially give an insight why massive individual salaries can be culturally difficult to manage in a TEAM game ... and the Old Saints and hopefully New Saints model of spreading the share of cap in a more even manner (less massive peaks) is the way to go. If I was a top 5 player at Essendon, I would certainly be wondering how much I was missing out on $ wise, now multiply that by stars of a Premiership team?

One final memory ... the team mantra of 100% effort and it's various permutations was something that Grant and I discussed in depth in the good old days of Saintsational and Saints Chat (the AFL run chat room) prior to the bickering of today ... when intelligent and meaningful discussion was valued amongst the die-hards amongst us and encouraged the coach of the time (Grant) to communicate this way with the fans. I sincerely hope that the stupidity and bickering will now disappear and be replaced with football discussions!

[aaron82]

My only main criticism of the GT coached teams was our inability to turn games of footy when it wasn't going our way.
We were very much front runners, that isnt necessarily a bad thing.

If a team were to get out to a lead of +20 points against us it was all over.

I very much enjoyed the 2002-2006 years. GT was spot on with how tough our side was in especially around the midfield.

My favourite day at the football was when we poleaxed Carlton at Optus Oval in late 2003. As GT stated they had over the years given us some fearful hidings and to kick them whilst they were down on their home turf was as good as a finals win.
We kicked 9 in the first term, Dal was playing on a forward flank and kicked a few in the first term. It was almorst training drill style at times.
We led by near on 80 points at half time!

That was the day I believed that we could win a flag with that group of players. Alas injuries and bad luck conspired against us.

[Stillwaiting]

My favourite day at the football was when we poleaxed Carlton at Optus Oval in late 2003. As GT stated they had over the years given us some fearful hidings and to kick them whilst they were down on their home turf was as good as a finals win.
We kicked 9 in the first term, Dal was playing on a forward flank and kicked a few in the first term. It was almorst training drill style at times.
We led by near on 80 points at half time!

That was the day I believed that we could win a flag with that group of players. Alas injuries and bad luck conspired against us.

Yes i can recall that game and good it was to belt them like they, the filth and bummers had done to us so many times. I can remember GT being asked by a reporter if it got boring to continually flog carlton like that year after year, his response was something like "ask the StKilda supporters who have copped it over the years" (cant remember the exact quote). How true that comment was.

[Vazelos]

GT,

it does not surprise me that you would come on here & engage with the fans. You were always different that way. I recall meeting you when Blight was coach & you took myself & my now deceased cousin into the rooms during training & showed us the locker room & gymnasium. Its a special memory now that he passed away suddenly 2 years later at only 33. I remember being completely awestruck standing next to Plugger's locker yet also surprised by the low standard of the rooms & gymnasium on offer. I also remember having a few drinks with yourself, Rod Butterss & Brian Waldron at Waves disco in Adelaide that same year after the game when we got belted by Port Adelaide. I recall that night vividly seeing the belief & passion all 3 of you had to changing things at St Kilda. I recall the main sentiment being the past has no relevance to the future & we are going to break the mindset & culture of accepting 2nd best & we are here to compete against anyone anytime. I went away that night knowing we were in the hands of guys who were going to have a real crack & were not going to die wandering. It saddens me now to see how your personal fall out with Butterrs completely derailed the club & a significant proportion of the collective good work achieved by both of you was tarnished & compromised. I know you have a conscience & I am sure there are some deep regrets to what transpired. What should have been an amazing decade for the club became yet more ammunition for the St Kilda bashers to have lazy pot shots on our culture & history. That scandal, along with the school girl photo saga, Milney/Montagna rape case & Lovett rape issue tarnished an amazing 8 years at the Saints where we played in consistent finals & ran deep into Preliminary & Grand Finals on several occasions.

I believe you have amazing management people skills. Your ability to understand & motivate people coupled with your charisma & marketing abilities ensured you possess special talents for a football club or in Corporate Australia. If I was President I would never have you as coach because in my eyes there were others that could have fulfilled that role for the football club ( I don't think your talents were that unique as a coach in the market place, in fact I rated others better) but few had the unique passion for the club & skill set you possess in other areas. Invariably you get sacked as football coaches so we were always going to lose you one day.

Your ideas about the Ruck position puzzle me. It is portrayed in the media you never rated the position. In my mind you can't win a Premiership without dominant Rucks. It killed us in 1997. If Vidovic & Everitt played that day we would have won by 5 to 6 goals. Jolly going to Collingwood in 2010 cost us another Premiership.

I also was disappointed at some of your 'pot shots' at the club on the TV show in the last few years. I recall referring to our history as 'pathetic, only winning 1 Premiership in that time' & also attempting to embarrass Michael Nettlefold by repeating something he said about the club years ago to you in private about never wanting to work at St Kilda. It was obvious again the personal issues you had with people at the club influenced your behavior & the end result was the club suffered.
Even if you do believe we have a pathetic history you don't say it. It is like talking about one of your children, you know they may have a flaw but you don't say it publicly even when you are angry at them.

In summary Thommo, you had your time at the club,to make a huge difference & you nearly pulled it off but in the end you blew it. Unfortunately instead of celebrating Premierships & changing the history of a special club ( see New England Patriots & Boston Red Sox as examples of how it can be done) you ended up taking the club to court. It was a boys club, run like one & when personal matters became strained you allowed your professional roles in the club to be compromised.

There is only one Trevor Barker. He will be remembered as the man that sacrificed the most to be at St Kilda. Unfortunately you could have been one of the greats instead of 'persona non grata' up until recently.

I wish it could have been different because you promised us the 'Ride of our Lives' and you did for a short time but unfortunately not long enough.

I hope to see you engaging here more often, i am happy you have settled your differences with the club because I would want Grant Thomas on my side & not against me. You have so much to offer.