I'm shattered !

[joffaboy]

Obviously the club believes that we needed a ready to go full back for the back line to remain competitive - hence their efforts in attempting to trade for Mitch BROWN. It was obvious they needed a full back as soon as Dawson left - but perhaps their salary cap restraints prevented that last year.

This is obvious

AND yes our defence was put under pressure last year but that will continue under the Watters game plan where he wants each player to be able to beat their opponent. At full back we simply didn't have the player with the physical attributes to manage that!

Again you state the obvious

People seem to think that any player can play the role at full back. It takes a different kind of individual (someone who is prepared to sacrifice their own game for the benefit of the team). Wilkes has shown he isn't prepared to do that and the other players used in the position have shown they dont have the tools to manage the big forwards.

Again obvious, except for the fact that Wilkes is not a backmans arsehole. Shown he was a capable forward but not a back man.

In any event my point is why not try a proven state league full back of similiar? We see how well our reverses listed players go against the older more seasoned players in the VFL - they cant compete. What buggs me is the club and it's recruiters seem to have issues with giving proven state league players a go!

In a previous sentance you state that not everyone can play fullback, but then you want the Saints to recruit a second player who hasn't the talent to make any AFL list anywhere. Sounds like utter desperation and a confused argument. Why, if you state, not just anybody can play fullback, you want just anybody from a second rate league. It simply doesn't make sense.

Barlow is the classic example of the club not being able to look outside a players combine record or their supposed character reports. He was delivered to their door step and they still got it wrong!

Barlow is a mid, not a fullback. You say it is a specialist job then use a non specialist role as your example. Again it doesn't make sense.

They didn't even think that drafting an 18 y/o strong key defender should be a priority.

Thats right, they didn't think about it, never discussed it, never had any meetings about what is their best strategy for recruiting. They just forgot we needed a fullback did they?

2014 they may get a player like Mitch Brown but they might not - where to then?

That is a year in the future, why worry about that now? We might get WCE fullback or Rutten may become available. A whole manner of things may occur. We may have a young player or rookie who might come on in leaps and bounds.

I stand by my thoughts on Roberton

You thoughts are irrelevant and insulting to a player who the recruiters at our club deemed fit to select. Your OP was a disgrace

but if the club really wanted him why not make room on the rookie list for him and make the smarter decision by drafting a STATE LEAGUE FULL BACK !

So again, you confuse your argument. You say not anybody can play fullback, but you want a second rater who can get a gig at any other AFL team to waltz into the seniors. You seem not to believe your own words. Doesn't matter if you put it in caps or not, it is still a poor and confused argument.

I have read he is a ready made player 21 y/o having played 37 games for Freo - who have struggled fielding a team let alone a quality HB flanker.

For a start he was injured this year, but you call this the worst recruiting EVER by the Saints, he is a gumby and soft, but all you have done is read about him? Fair Dinkum. The guy may turn out to be no good, but who are you to judge over the recruiters at the club. WA Saints fans have also called you out on your "soft" claim and Robertson abilities. You are in a minority of one at the moment.

The same could be said using TIPPETT as an example. He has been a rookie listed player who has been developing slowly but is now ready to take the step having proven himself against quality opponents in the SANFL.

Who says? And the second rate competitions tend to hide weaknesses that the AFL exposes. Raph Clarke looked like a world beater in the VFL. Sheesh, even Dean Polo looked a cut above the rest.

AND you know what at the end of the day - WE STILL DONT HAVE A COMPETITIVE FULL BACK. There must be some missing information as for me this decision by our recruitment team defies any logical reasoning!

Your logic is to desperately get someone, anyone who has managed to play fullback in a second rate competition and put them into a starting lineup of an AFL team, even though they have been passed over by EVERY SINGLE AFL TEAM PLAYING.

Oh and why you crap all over a 21 y.o. and make confused and contradictory statements, you have not once suggested a fullback from these lesser leagues. Your solution is to make fools of ourselves with a fullback that couldn't even hold a candle to Zac because you desperately want someone who calls themselves a fullback.

Really WO, you have backtracked. Your OP was a character assasination on a player who you admit you have only read about, and some tosh about getting any second rate player who calls themselves a fullback, without ever having the gonads to suggest a player.

Then when you are treated with the distain you deserve you bleat and play victim. You got what you pathetic OP deserved.

[sax]

Good on you boys safety in numbers you wankers...no one is allowed to have an opinion on this site! You are like a team of school yard bullies - yet all cowards !

And you're a sook!

[White Winmar]

I understand the frustration expressed on here about not getting a FB type, but please show some faith in the people who research this, day in day out, draw up our list management and game plans, work with the players and know of their capabilities to a far greater extent than any of us. They know where the deficiencies are and it's not as though they're out NOT to rectify them. They obviously have a strategy and are adhering to it. (As long as their plan is not a Baldrick style, cunning plan).

[stinger]

theres rules for the forum????

you well know there are....

[bergholt]

Would you prefer a well balanced list of players who were as close as we could get to AFL standard, but not quite good enough?

Or a list full of quality AFL players which also lacks in one or two areas?

It's pretty obvious which one would win more games - we saw that in 2009.

[dragit]

Would you prefer a well balanced list of players who were as close as we could get to AFL standard, but not quite good enough?

Or a list full of quality AFL players which also lacks in one or two areas?

It's pretty obvious which one would win more games - we saw that in 2009.

So you are saying a better balance is better than a full list of AFL standard players?

In 2009 we had Eddy and McQualter who aren't AFL standard or they would be still playing AFL football… But ar least we had a FB who was average, but it was better than none.

[Gershwin]

I understand the frustration expressed on here about not getting a FB type, but please show some faith in the people who research this, day in day out, draw up our list management and game plans, work with the players and know of their capabilities to a far greater extent than any of us. They know where the deficiencies are and it's not as though they're out NOT to rectify them. They obviously have a strategy and are adhering to it. (As long as their plan is not a Baldrick style, cunning plan).

I hear what you say WW but you do question the 'experts' when they choose Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Nicholas Winmar, Jesse W Smith, Adam Pattison, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson, Luke Miles in 2009.
Farren Ray, Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Nicholas Heyne, Alistair Smith, Paul Cahill, Colm Begley in 2008.
Jamie Cripps, Sam Crocker, Tom Ledger, Arryn Siposs, Ryan Gamble, Dean Polo, Tom Simpkin in 2010
Really poor success rate.

Can't comment on 2011 and 2012 yet.

Then they overlook a back-up Ruckman for 2012 which costs us dearly and now seem to have not addressed the lack of key defenders.

Putting on my 'critic' hat I'm prepared to say that their performance recently is poor and does not inspire confidence.

[Dave McNamara]

'AFL quality' full back!?!

Stuff that!

Bring back Enrico Misso.

What the Saints fans really need is an 'AFL quality' whipping boy!

Come on people, you know that's right.

[Teflon]

What's Elmo doing nowadays ?.. He's unemployed

[White Winmar]

I understand the frustration expressed on here about not getting a FB type, but please show some faith in the people who research this, day in day out, draw up our list management and game plans, work with the players and know of their capabilities to a far greater extent than any of us. They know where the deficiencies are and it's not as though they're out NOT to rectify them. They obviously have a strategy and are adhering to it. (As long as their plan is not a Baldrick style, cunning plan).

I hear what you say WW but you do question the 'experts' when they choose Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Nicholas Winmar, Jesse W Smith, Adam Pattison, Will Johnson, Zac Dawson, Luke Miles in 2009.
Farren Ray, Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Nicholas Heyne, Alistair Smith, Paul Cahill, Colm Begley in 2008.
Jamie Cripps, Sam Crocker, Tom Ledger, Arryn Siposs, Ryan Gamble, Dean Polo, Tom Simpkin in 2010
Really poor success rate.

Can't comment on 2011 and 2012 yet.

Then they overlook a back-up Ruckman for 2012 which costs us dearly and now seem to have not addressed the lack of key defenders.

Putting on my 'critic' hat I'm prepared to say that their performance recently is poor and does not inspire confidence.

Your point on recruiting is well made, Gershwin. The 2008/9 drafts have proven to be a complete write-off. In fairness to the incumbents, there have been a number of changes made, and there has been a shift from the short-term type, solution focused recruiting that was the norm under Ross Lyon. Cuddles, Pelican and crew have a different approach and I see a great improvement in overall list management happening. They have worked dilligently to fill the gap created in our list by those barren years, with the acquisition of the likes of Dunell, DTL, Lee, Hickey, Roberton, Simpkin, Saad and Milera. All should be ready to play a fair bit of senior footy next year. That is a remarkable repair and patch job on a list, that quite frankly, at the end of 2010, was a shambles.

When you listed the choices we made, I shuddered, but I think the players brought in post 2010, look a lot more promising. Sure I would've loved to have seen them take Clurey, Garlett and maybe Joel Tippett, but I think from what I've seen so far, the Pelican is doing ok. At least now we have some quality youngsters on the list, with Ross, Siposs, Ledger, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Wright, White, Murdoch, Pierce and Saunders. Handy rookies in Curren, Minchington and Ferg. Looks so much better than just two years ago. I know that not all of them will make it, but if just 50% do, then we'll have had quite a win and will have avoided a dive into the cellar. I still genuinely believe, with a modicum of luck, we could still challenge in the next two years.

BTW, yoou couldn't knock me up a quick tune, Gershwin? I'm a huge fan.

[dragit]

What's Elmo doing nowadays ?.. He's unemployed

Tickle me... Pink cigar.

[Gershwin]

Just for you White Winmar:

[gringo]

We have a 4 year plan in my opinion. Getting in a good solid spine and a ruck division is close and next year FB under free agency and load up on mids and we will be on our way.

People should chill out anyway, we have got the most important position on the ground filled with the guy who is so s*** he couldn't even spell his surname right. That's right Roberton is the most likely Whipping boy ever. He hasn't even got in the door and he is inspiring hatred. With out Raph and Gram and Kosi likely to see less game time we needed someone who we can boo and spit on in the race. Enter the Robotman, he even has a spit guard on his forehead. I say we should have a members day where we all get to kick him at Moorabin.

[dragit]

We have a 4 year plan in my opinion. Getting in a good solid spine and a ruck division is close and next year FB under free agency and load up on mids and we will be on our way.

People should chill out anyway, we have got the most important position on the ground filled with the guy who is so s*** he couldn't even spell his surname right. That's right Roberton is the most likely Whipping boy ever. He hasn't even got in the door and he is inspiring hatred. With out Raph and Gram and Kosi likely to see less game time we needed someone who we can boo and spit on in the race. Enter the Robotman, he even has a spit guard on his forehead. I say we should have a members day where we all get to kick him at Moorabin.

He's got nothing on 'the-sandwich'

[Q-TRAIN]

We get a 21 year old with 37 games under his belt for free and people complain.

Im very confused. Do people know this guy on some personal level (from high school or something) ?

Whats the go. Hes a Saints player. Local boy. Done an apprenticeship and played sr footy.

At 21 plenty of guys we love (e.g Simpkin, Saad, Dunell) hadnt played a single game - so Dylan is still just a kid developing his game with plenty of upside if he is committed.

Gotta agree with you on that one Con
Hes a 21 yr old player who is either gonna be a handy depth player or he might develop into a very handy pick up for us . AND WE GOT HIM CHEAP AS CHIPS. Thats not as bad as some people are making out. Give the young bloke a chance.

[hayes66]

When reviewing or assessing how well we have recruited, I think the first rule should be, have we quoted factual information?
In 2008 the club drafted Stanley and rookie listed, Simpkin and Dawson. In 2010 the club drafted Siposs and Ledger and rookied Curren. Who's fault it is that a full back walked out on the club? I don't know.
I am all for giving the new administration all the moral support we can but let's not assume everything during Lyon's reign was RS.
I think I am right in saying under Lyon we obtained, Schiender, Dempster, MCEvoy, Steven, Ray and the above mentioned players.
Not great, I agree but to say it was a shambles, I think is a little harsh.
Particularly when you consider the picks to get , Steven, Simpkin, Stanley, Siposs, Dawson and Ledger were all 40 +.

[gringo]

We have a 4 year plan in my opinion. Getting in a good solid spine and a ruck division is close and next year FB under free agency and load up on mids and we will be on our way.

People should chill out anyway, we have got the most important position on the ground filled with the guy who is so s*** he couldn't even spell his surname right. That's right Roberton is the most likely Whipping boy ever. He hasn't even got in the door and he is inspiring hatred. With out Raph and Gram and Kosi likely to see less game time we needed someone who we can boo and spit on in the race. Enter the Robotman, he even has a spit guard on his forehead. I say we should have a members day where we all get to kick him at Moorabin.

He's got nothing on 'the-sandwich'

Oh yeah I forgot Trent Nathan- Don-Kevin Dennis-Waterman- Lane, he has an ambiguous racial background which will make him easier to spot. I had a pissed old school lady next to me on ground level who was abusing "what's the indian fellas name" which was Milera even though she was actually incensed at Gwilt turning the ball over a couple of times. BLT should be able to take the flack for anyone with more than a sun tan.

[White Winmar]

Just for you White Winmar:

Thanks Gershwin. Classic!

[White Winmar]

When reviewing or assessing how well we have recruited, I think the first rule should be, have we quoted factual information?
In 2008 the club drafted Stanley and rookie listed, Simpkin and Dawson. In 2010 the club drafted Siposs and Ledger and rookied Curren. Who's fault it is that a full back walked out on the club? I don't know.
I am all for giving the new administration all the moral support we can but let's not assume everything during Lyon's reign was RS.
I think I am right in saying under Lyon we obtained, Schiender, Dempster, MCEvoy, Steven, Ray and the above mentioned players.
Not great, I agree but to say it was a shambles, I think is a little harsh.
Particularly when you consider the picks to get , Steven, Simpkin, Stanley, Siposs, Dawson and Ledger were all 40 +.

Not the recruiting as much as the overall state of the list, which was shambolic, hayes66. If we had have kept going with the strategies we were employing then, we'd be like Port Adelaide now. I think we've pulled out of the nosedive just in time. IMHO.

[gringo]

I actually think our development was woeful - we seemed get rid of kids before they had even been given a go. We had a live for the now attitude and no future planning. Under Ross we seemed to recruit a mass of mid sized lead up forwards and had a crap hit rate.

[hayes66]

When reviewing or assessing how well we have recruited, I think the first rule should be, have we quoted factual information?
In 2008 the club drafted Stanley and rookie listed, Simpkin and Dawson. In 2010 the club drafted Siposs and Ledger and rookied Curren. Who's fault it is that a full back walked out on the club? I don't know.
I am all for giving the new administration all the moral support we can but let's not assume everything during Lyon's reign was RS.
I think I am right in saying under Lyon we obtained, Schiender, Dempster, MCEvoy, Steven, Ray and the above mentioned players.
Not great, I agree but to say it was a shambles, I think is a little harsh.
Particularly when you consider the picks to get , Steven, Simpkin, Stanley, Siposs, Dawson and Ledger were all 40 +.

Not the recruiting as much as the overall state of the list, which was shambolic, hayes66. If we had have kept going with the strategies we were employing then, we'd be like Port Adelaide now. I think we've pulled out of the nosedive just in time. IMHO.

Yes I agree with you there. There does seem a plan now. Targeting Hickey and Brown was on the money. I do have some worries with the listing of Dennis-Lane and Roberton. Dennis-Lane unsure of the need and in my opinion is just a player. Roberton is not a key back so I have concerns there.
But all in all the strategy does some to have improved.

[bergholt]

So you are saying a better balance is better than a full list of AFL standard players?

In 2009 we had Eddy and McQualter who aren't AFL standard or they would be still playing AFL football… But ar least we had a FB who was average, but it was better than none.

Sorry, I phrased it badly.

I'm saying that a list of mostly high-quality AFL players, mixed in with some GOPs who are on the fringes, is what worked for us in 09/10. We had real stars in Hayes, Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Milne; good players in Gardiner, Gram, Schneider, Jones, Gilbert, Ray. And then we had some relatively mediocre players like Eddy, McQualter, Koschitzke, Baker, Blake, Dawson, Gwilt, Clarke.

The very good players carried the poor ones through. But without the poor (and cheap!) ones, we wouldn't have been able to afford to keep all the good ones. The list was "unbalanced" because we lacked a lot of quality in some areas, but we still made two grand finals.

So aim to get as many stars as you can and don't focus too much on "balance". We already have a mediocre full-back or two - Blake, Simpkin, Fisher - so why sign another one? Instead, sign a player who might on their own be good enough to carry some GOPs to the finals. (I don't know whether Roberton is that.)

I'd rather have a quality midfield and a crap full-back than an OK midfield and an OK fullback.

[Dave McNamara]

Your point on recruiting is well made, Gershwin. The 2008/9 drafts have proven to be a complete write-off...
Cuddles, Pelican and crew have a different approach and I see a great improvement in overall list management happening....
now we have some quality youngsters on the list, with Ross, Siposs, Ledger, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Wright, White, Murdoch, Pierce and Saunders. Handy rookies in Curren, Minchington and Ferg.
Looks so much better than just two years ago.
I know that not all of them will make it, but if just 50% do, then we'll have had quite a win and will have avoided a dive into the cellar.

Excellent points there WW.

We are a work in progress, and progress is moving quickly... huge rejigging of an aged list already in just two drafts...
and don't forget those drafts were compromised by us not having any top 10 picks in drafts already rigged for the new AFL love-children.
(Somehow) we have snared a heap of young, talented and very exciting kids. As you said, even if only 50% deliver on their potential... that's fine, coz that means 50% deliver on their potential... look out!

I still genuinely believe, with a modicum of luck, we could still challenge in the next two years.

This!!!

[bozza1980]

Good on you boys safety in numbers you wankers...no one is allowed to have an opinion on this site! You are like a team of school yard bullies - yet all cowards !

You are entitled to your opinion, that doesn't mean it can't be strongly disagreed with.

I understand the frustration but not the level of hyperbole.

I have no idea if Roberton is any good, he may not be, but when one considers the many players we have drafted who have never played, I find it hard to believe that your "worst ever recruit" comment has any basis in reality.

Anyway, I expect I am wasting my breath, a person who writes a highly abusive post and then abuses everyone who disagrees with him, probably isn't a person prone to constructive and reasoned debate.

[saintspremiers]

People should chill out anyway, we have got the most important position on the ground filled with the guy who is so s*** he couldn't even spell his surname right. That's right Roberton is the most likely Whipping boy ever. He hasn't even got in the door and he is inspiring hatred. With out Raph and Gram and Kosi likely to see less game time we needed someone who we can boo and spit on in the race.

Agree.

The surname spelling is just plain wrong. (Not to be confused with Penny Wong who is also normally wrong!).