The penny drops....

[The Fireman]

Did Jim Stynes know they were tanking ?

[sunsaint]

I agree with Life Long Saint.

It was the entire priority pick system that encouraged tanking. We benefited more than any other club, but the entire concept was a joke.

Very hypocritical of the AFL to come down too hard on a team that sought to take advantage of the system they had put in place.


That being said, some of Melbourne's performances that year were breathtakingly bizzare. I don't think you could every say that we didn't try and win games of footy under GT in '01 and '02, despite how bad we were ...

but this is the whole problem with the tanaking arguement
It would be very easy to mount a case against the Saints saying that GT did not try win games, by using a full ground defensive flood
it would have been discussed by the coaches, we're never going to win a game, so lets try not to get done by 100 each week

[rexy]

Hope they don't get penalised, if they did tank to a degree which is seen as cheating they have not done very well from it anyway, penalty enough IMO. The rules have been altered to try and reduce the risk of this happening again, move on now.

[skeptic]

Melbourne really stuffed this up though.

It's one thing to "tank" but then the way they stitched up Bailey afterwards... well they deserve what they get.

Many at the time accussed the Saints of tanking... my recollection of that time was that the club was doing everything it could to rebuild and win games.

We lost many but always looked like we were trying and improving. If we did tank, we did it right

[Sobraz]

Watch the Dees get brutally punished, and at the same press conference the AFL make a song and dance about how tanking never occurred under their watch...

Classic Demetriou Doublethink..

[dragit]

Did Jim Stynes know they were tanking ?

Yes, apparently there is some reference to it in his book.

[Yaysaints]

They are the first team to tank definitively and so an example will be made. If not its a bigger farce. The gambling companies will exert pressure also.

[gringo]

I think the AFL allow cheating they just don't want anyone to get caught. The Pies look tight in the salary cap but then sign more players onto their list but no investigation. The dees screwed up by getting found out. The betting agencies will want blood so the Dees will be nailed to the wall. Same goes for the crows- they will have to smash them for embarrassing the league. The draft order will keep shuffling up, I wonder if Viney will still be there at 12? that pick might have been handy.

[plugger66]

I think the AFL allow cheating they just don't want anyone to get caught. The Pies look tight in the salary cap but then sign more players onto their list but no investigation. The dees screwed up by getting found out. The betting agencies will want blood so the Dees will be nailed to the wall. Same goes for the crows- they will have to smash them for embarrassing the league. The draft order will keep shuffling up, I wonder if Viney will still be there at 12? that pick might have been handy.

Just made up rubbish from you about the pies. You and everyone on here wouldnt have a clue. The AFL would. Pretty sure Viney has been taken also.

[St Ick]

Will be interesting if the dees lost their picks. It would be good for our chances to pick up a slider as we'd move up a couple of spots. It would have also turned our pick 12/13 into pick 9 & 10 though...

[bergholt]

Will be interesting if the dees lost their picks. It would be good for our chances to pick up a slider as we'd move up a couple of spots.

What actually is a "slider"? Is it just a guy who wasn't good enough to be taken top ten or top twenty, so they got picked after that?

[sunsaint]

Melbourne really stuffed this up though.

It's one thing to "tank" but then the way they stitched up Bailey afterwards... well they deserve what they get.

Many at the time accussed the Saints of tanking... my recollection of that time was that the club was doing everything it could to rebuild and win games.

We lost many but always looked like we were trying and improving. If we did tank, we did it right

arrgghhh... this is my problem with the tanking accusation
lets say there was a directive from the board to tank, and told bailey to do so, either he did carry the order out & they finished at the bottom or he didnt - yet they still decide to sack him
and as I said above, you MUST level the same accusation against the saints when it was clear we werent doing everything we could to win games but limit the size of the defeat.

[Dr Spaceman]

“Tank tank and tank tank tank ...”

[St Ick]

Will be interesting if the dees lost their picks. It would be good for our chances to pick up a slider as we'd move up a couple of spots.

What actually is a "slider"? Is it just a guy who wasn't good enough to be taken top ten or top twenty, so they got picked after that?

Not sure if thats a genuine question or u are taking the proverbial. Either way I'll take the bait. A slider in my opinion is a player who was highly regarded either this year or last who gets picked further down the order than expected.

Plenty of reasons for this, be it injuries, surplus of his type on club lists or other clubs may target specific needs of which that player is not one of, percieved behavioural issues, poor carnival form. All reasons why a player could slide down the draft order.

Eg if not for injuries Stringer and Menzel could have both been in the top two. Or if not for being kicked out of the academy Garlett could have been top 10.

[Con Gorozidis]

I thought this was a thread about Luke Penny going skydiving.

[bergholt]

What actually is a "slider"? Is it just a guy who wasn't good enough to be taken top ten or top twenty, so they got picked after that?

Not sure if thats a genuine question or u are taking the proverbial. Either way I'll take the bait. A slider in my opinion is a player who was highly regarded either this year or last who gets picked further down the order than expected.

Plenty of reasons for this, be it injuries, surplus of his type on club lists or other clubs may target specific needs of which that player is not one of, percieved behavioural issues, poor carnival form. All reasons why a player could slide down the draft order.

Eg if not for injuries Stringer and Menzel could have both been in the top two. Or if not for being kicked out of the academy Garlett could have been top 10.

Right, so what you're saying is that generally there are legitimate reasons not to take a "slider" - exactly the same reasons that other clubs didn't pick them. Does that mean it's a good thing if Stringer or Menzel last until our pick, or a bad one because maybe other clubs have done more/better homework on them than us?

This situation sounds similar to a thing called "winner's curse" in auctions.

[St Ick]

What actually is a "slider"? Is it just a guy who wasn't good enough to be taken top ten or top twenty, so they got picked after that?

Not sure if thats a genuine question or u are taking the proverbial. Either way I'll take the bait. A slider in my opinion is a player who was highly regarded either this year or last who gets picked further down the order than expected.

Plenty of reasons for this, be it injuries, surplus of his type on club lists or other clubs may target specific needs of which that player is not one of, percieved behavioural issues, poor carnival form. All reasons why a player could slide down the draft order.

Eg if not for injuries Stringer and Menzel could have both been in the top two. Or if not for being kicked out of the academy Garlett could have been top 10.

Right, so what you're saying is that generally there are legitimate reasons not to take a "slider" - exactly the same reasons that other clubs didn't pick them. Does that mean it's a good thing if Stringer or Menzel last until our pick, or a bad one because maybe other clubs have done more/better homework on them than us?


This situation sounds similar to a thing called "winner's curse" in auctions.

I see the point you are making and I say perhaps you are right. I guess sliders are generally riskier prospects. Last year you could say we got one in Markworth. He 'slid' due to the fact he was new to the game, was a skinny kid and was a mature aged player playing TAC cup.
I wouldn't expect us to pick a kid up and stuff it up due to lack of homework though, give our recruiters some credit.

I'll try to put it another way, a kid may be top 10 on talent alone, but something else like body shape injuries or similar are holding him back which makes him more speculative so therefore he is taken in the 20's. Someone help me out here!

[bergholt]

I'll try to put it another way, a kid may be top 10 on talent alone, but something else like body shape injuries or similar are holding him back which makes him more speculative so therefore he is taken in the 20's. Someone help me out here!

Yeah, I know what you're saying! I suppose I'm just trying to make the point that you have to consider the full package when deciding whether or not to draft someone. Talent is only part of it.

For every Jack Darling or Chris Judd - two famous "sliders" because of attitude and injuries respectively - there's presumably a lot of Caydn Beethams or Tom Lynchs; players who in the end were taken higher than they justified because the club was willing to overlook certain deficiencies.

I think my final conclusion is that it's an art not a science!

[Cairnsman]

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/sec ... 28hpt.html

I hope they don't throw the book at the Dees.

Plenty of teams have tanked in the past dozen years.

It's just now that Dimsim and a monkey are acknowledging it.

I don't know that the Saints can get high and mighty about tanking. Our past decade wouldn't have been possible with it.

[Ice Wolf]

A fitting punishment would be forfeiture of 1st round picks in this years draft and their picks being downgraded to the last in each subsequent round, as well as the pre-season and rookie drafts and those in club management most responsible being banned from the AFL for 5 years.

[saintspremiers]

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/sec ... 28hpt.html

I hope they don't throw the book at the Dees.

Plenty of teams have tanked in the past dozen years.

It's just now that Dimsim and a monkey are acknowledging it.

I don't know that the Saints can get high and mighty about tanking. Our past decade wouldn't have been possible with it.

A lot on here don't think we tanked in the early noughties. I think we may have in one season. But we had a crap team and a crap coach. Timmid helped us a lot in that regard.

[bigcarl]

A lot on here don't think we tanked in the early noughties. I think we may have in one season.

I guess it depends on the definition of tanking.

I'd say the club made a conscious decision to "get games into the kids" and to exploit the national draft over several seasons ... as encouraged by AFL rules.

[SaintPav]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

[Eastern]

I'm not sure that any penalties imposed will be for this year's Draft. We've already been through the Trade & Free Agency periods and I don't see the AFL imposing penalties for this year's Draft. Making a decision soon, but not imposing the sanctions until next year would be a whole lot fairer on those clubs who have dealt with, or were going to deal with Melbourne (& Adelaide) this year !!

[Zed]

A lot on here don't think we tanked in the early noughties. I think we may have in one season.

I guess it depends on the definition of tanking.

I'd say the club made a conscious decision to "get games into the kids" and to exploit the national draft over several seasons ... as encouraged by AFL rules.

I remember reading articles about Robert Harvey and Nathan Burke who both said they received games early in the careers that they probably didnt deserve. Why because the coaches at the time thought they would be better off with the experience in the long term.

Which goes to show that this has been happening forever in some form well before priority picks and tanking were ever discussed. Its what we still call "development" in the lower grades. When your team is clearly not good enough to make the finals - what else do you have left in a season except for development ?

Agree that priority picks murky the waters a little, and I would not be against introducing a lottery system that removes the 'guaranteed' incentives associated with finishing bottom.