Why has Ray lost favour ??

[bigcarl]

Ray and even Peake are probably better senior players than Newnes or Cripps when they played their first game.

Dunno about Peake. Lyon liked him, but I never thought he was much more than fringe at best.

FWIW I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

[plugger66]

Ray and even Peake are probably better senior players than Newnes or Cripps when they played their first game.

Dunno about Peake. Lyon liked him, but I never thought he was much more than fringe at best.

FWIW I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

Not if they sit at Sandy every game.

[samoht]

με ακούτε ρε ;

[whiskers3614]

κατασταλάξει

Did I grab everyone's attention now ?

i'm all for the kids playing,
The kids need some mature bodies to play alongside - and we can't rush them.

Given that Gram, Blake. Kosi, Fisher, Hayes, Roo, Milne etc, etc... .. will retire at some stage, soon - Ray is in the right age bracket to retain.
He's durable and a utility - all the more reason to retain him - to play alongside the kids over the next few years.

What sayeth ye ??

All Greek to me!

[skeptic]

After his 2009 season, Ray was a B-Grade player with the odd A-Grade performance. He was expected to maintain and maybe improve his performance, but it fell away and stayed down.

Credit to Ray in that he bounced back when many would have fallen away but he's now placed himself in the dangerous category of players that don't nearly play to their potential often enough... Schneider, Jones, Raph, Gram to name a few though I will accept i'm on my own with a few of those names.

So whilst I like and would keepp Ray, is he worth persisting with oppossed to developing a player that could be better?

[joffaboy]

What sayeth ye ??

I sayth you are the bloke that went on and on and on and on and on about Tommy Walsh not getting agame and how Ross Lyon was such a bad gu6y.

Tell me how did Walsh go at Sydney? Set the place on fire did he?

As for Ray. OK off the HBF and when not under pressure, put him in the mids and he coughs it up like a cat with a furball.

Ray still has currency with the midrange players and we have young players who can easily take his place. Best to move him on and get something in return.

Maybe we could trade him to Sydney for your hero Tommy to come back and play at Sandy.

[samoht]

What sayeth ye ??

I sayth you are the bloke that went on and on and on and on and on about Tommy Walsh not getting agame and how Ross Lyon was such a bad gu6y.

Tell me how did Walsh go at Sydney? Set the place on fire did he?

As for Ray. OK off the HBF and when not under pressure, put him in the mids and he coughs it up like a cat with a furball.

Ray still has currency with the midrange players and we have young players who can easily take his place. Best to move him on and get something in return.

Maybe we could trade him to Sydney for your hero Tommy to come back and play at Sandy.

Remember, psychiatrist starts with a "p" ! .. you're still looking under "s" ?

[saintsRrising]

I am a Ray fan, but yes he is a middle tier player that pops up with the occasional BOG or Top 3 game. Rarely did he play a dreadful game.

Thing is though that we finished 9th in 2012 and so if we want to finish higher in future years we are going to have to mix things up a bit.

Pelchin and Watters are remoulding the team...and now is as in 3 years or so) is their moment to shine or flop!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which way we will have to wait an see.

However one thing we do know is that if we did not change, is that at best we would hang around the middle third of the ladder.

So back on Ray:
For us to improve it will mean:
* addressing our deficiencies and weaknesses and also seeking to make upgrades on middle tier and bottom 6 players
* or to have those players improve

With BJ having jumped ship, it is now moreso as we have lost a deadly kick and playmaker

As to which players....well there is two thirds of the team. Who will improve, who will go, who will fall by the wayside..

Ray: Steady, great mark...but so so kicking and decision making. Looks like he has been stamped as not being able to improve.
Geary: hard as nails...but so so kicking and decision making
Gram...on his day damaging...but too often his kicking is booming rather than destructive
Gwilt (of 2012).... good defender, but needs to regain his kicking as in 2012 when he went for distance it was Grammesque!!
Milera..... a lot to like in his first year as so should not be too harsh due to that...just needs to get into the play more often and make better decisions as in not trying to do as much
Saad...fantastic first year.....and if we can get his running shots on goal to be as good as his set shots he will have a lot of upside. That plus to learn to give off the ball more when oters are in good positions
Kosi.....well his goal kicking is very good....can provide useful, but not good support as the 2nd ruck...but his marking is not what it was and with his lack of field play and slowness it is a very one dimensional role to bea mark and kick FF that always seems to disappear for half a game.
Wilkes...finished the season well enough to suggest that he is more valuable than Kosi, but remains to be seen if he can do it against good teams and defenders. A solid pre-season will help. Does a lot good team play and works hard, but unfortunately drops some marks that he should not.
Armo: Had a pretty useful 2012, but can he step up more to be more than useful. His best games were very good, and so we will hope to see more of these. Has a hard edge that many of our players do not.
Steven: Could be a star. His run and carry and bursts out of the pack with the ball make him a one-off at the Saints. If he can become a bit better and smarter with his ball use and more consistent could be a star for us.
Siposs: Shows every sign of becoming a very good player for us. Like a number at the Saints though needs to win more of the ball and get into the game more.
Newnes: For a kid impressed all. Lets hope that he keeps developing...could be a mid or just a good BP.
Dunnell: This thread is about Ray...and it could well be players like Dunnell that will see Ray squeezed out of the Saints. Has a stamp of class about him, and hopefully another pre-season will see him built up a bit more. Could be that running outside player that Ray is (though Ray has also tagged).
Jones: That game when Jones was very near goal and he should have kicked, but dished it off badly after hesitating seems to have been the tipping point for Jones in 2012. Jones has many strong points including that he can win the contested ball in heavy traffic...but Watters will have set him some new benchmarks that he will need to improve on or face little future for the Saints.
Blake: A solid loyal player, with occasional dominant games and who was virtually in the number of roles that he could play. However he was a master of none, but under Lyon became a very solid defender. He was the backman however that opposition coaches would leave free to get the ball, as it does not use it well. Simpkin has emerged as his successor, and while he does not have Blakes versatility he looks like becoming a superior backman.
Ben: Around the ground he is a good mark, and is a smart player in how he uses the ball. Can play well as the ruckman covering defence too. In the ruck while he has been winning more tap-outs he does not tap well. He needs to improve his pure ruck play.
Stanley: IMO Stanley along with Steven, Saad and Siposs are the four players with the most potential to become stars. They may not of course. Stanley after being pole-axed when Scarlett nudged him into the flight of another play came back straight the next week to take a great mark running with the ball into the path of other players and the behind post. If he can get his, pace, marking, kicking and leap all together then he could be anything. I am content that he just play as a forward now, but I have a sneaking suspicion that as his body develops that he good become a game-changing ruckman.
Gram: A frustrating player in that his best is very good. He just seems however careless at times. Also needs to improve his defensive side.
Schneider: We mainly just need to get him fully fit, and on the park for a whole season.


With Ray....most likely high in Pelchin's mind is that he is one of a number of so-so players at the Saints, but is one of the very few, and perhaps even only player that other clubs will trade us something of value for. This at the end of the day may bea key reason why Ray goes rather than say Gram.

[joffaboy]

What sayeth ye ??

I sayth you are the bloke that went on and on and on and on and on about Tommy Walsh not getting agame and how Ross Lyon was such a bad gu6y.

Tell me how did Walsh go at Sydney? Set the place on fire did he?

As for Ray. OK off the HBF and when not under pressure, put him in the mids and he coughs it up like a cat with a furball.

Ray still has currency with the midrange players and we have young players who can easily take his place. Best to move him on and get something in return.

Maybe we could trade him to Sydney for your hero Tommy to come back and play at Sandy.

Remember, psychiatrist starts with a "p" ! .. you're still looking under "s" ?

Terrific response. Another dopey post from the bloke who went crazy because Walsh couldn't get a go at the Saints. Now Ray is good enough to play for hawthorn even though he cant get a game for the Saints.

Know a bit about football dont you?

[samoht]

Terrific response. Another dopey post from the bloke who went crazy because Walsh couldn't get a go at the Saints. Now Ray is good enough to play for hawthorn even though he cant get a game for the Saints.

Know a bit about football dont you?

I knew it was a matter of time and I hoped that if I'd throw enough bait out there I'd get a bite out of you - and you did not disappoint !
What took you so long ? - you made me work harder this time, but it was still worth it !

I think you're regulation size (as far as bullies go), so I will just pop you in the fry pan, this time.

[Watts the Buzz]

I'd be really disappointed if Ray left, I think he's underrated and a lot more valuable than some give him credit for.....

[bigcarl]

I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

Not if they sit at Sandy every game.

Injuries, suspensions, simple poor form. Excellent reserves form.

The chances come.

[Old Mate]

17 disposals per game for a 26 year old midfielder with 8 years experience is not good enough. Ray looks laconic and is laconic. He lacks intensity and consistency. If he is traded I hope we can get adequate compensation.

[Watts the Buzz]

Rhys Jones was laconic.....you'd day he was probably a better than average player though.

[Watts the Buzz]

To think they'd think of trading Ray for someone like Stefan Martin from Melbourne, who I do not rate AT ALL, is an absolute insult to Farren and I'm hoping that it's just a wild unsubstantiated rumour.

[bigcarl]

I don't think that picking a team with view of your next premiership and picking a team with your best chance of winning that week are the same thing.

No. GWS and Gold Coast are good examples of the longer view. It may or may not come off.

Sydney is closer to the shorter view.

[samoht]

17 disposals per game for a 26 year old midfielder with 8 years experience is not good enough. Ray looks laconic and is laconic. He lacks intensity and consistency. If he is traded I hope we can get adequate compensation.

Did Ray play midfield, though, or was he also played in defence ?
Was he given full match time ?

Anyway, an 11 possession/game average resulted in 21 games for Paupolo this year - and a regular gig playing for the mighty Hawks ! He also spends time in the midfield !

[gringo]

i thought Collingwood were crazy a few years ago when pumping games into a bunch of average kids and letting guys like Frazer, O'Bree and Ben Johnson run around in the VFL a couple of years later they won a premiership. Unfortunately we are outside the Premiership contender status so we need to find improvement. The kids are the hope, the old guys couldn't quite get the job done. Tough business footy. if you are outside that top 6 players your fair game to give up a spot to a promising lid.

I would play kids. The only lids I know are the tin lids and they wouldnt be good at footy IMO.

that joke would have bought the house down in 1936 ......when it was still topical.

[Old Mate]

17 disposals per game for a 26 year old midfielder with 8 years experience is not good enough. Ray looks laconic and is laconic. He lacks intensity and consistency. If he is traded I hope we can get adequate compensation.

Did Ray play midfield, though, or was he also played in defence ?
Was he given full match time ?

Anyway, an 11 possession/game average resulted in 21 games for Paupolo this year - and a regular gig playing for the mighty Hawks ! He also spends time in the midfield !

Ray plays a similar game to Gram and Gram has him well covered in possessions and overall output IMO. I think Puopolo should be compared to someone like Cripps as he plays a bit forward, high flank at times and is still young.

[plugger66]

I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

Not if they sit at Sandy every game.

Injuries, suspensions, simple poor form. Excellent reserves form.

The chances come.

Still havent been able to give me a name of a player who deserved a game because he was better than others when he played his first game. Waiting.

[matrix]

i think walsh had a shoulder injury
could never get into the side

[bigcarl]

I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

Not if they sit at Sandy every game.

Point is you play the players that have the best chance of winning any particular game ... or at least that's my philosophy. Best available, here and now ... not at some mythical time in the future.

If a kid gets a game through injury, suspension or whatever reason ... he can start to prove his worth in the side.

I want St Kilda to be competitive in every game. I don't see the value in bottoming out, though it seems some are ready to concede next season as a "developmental year".

[plugger66]

I like the look of Newnes. His chance will come if he's good enough and committed enough. Class rises.

Not if they sit at Sandy every game.

Injuries, suspensions, simple poor form. Excellent reserves form.

The chances come.

Still havent been able to give me a name of a player who deserved a game because he was better than others when he played his first game. Waiting.[/quote]


Point is you play the players that have the best chance of winning any particular game ... or at least that's my philosophy. Best available, here and now ... not at some mythical time in the future.

If a kid gets a game through injury, suspension or whatever reason ... he can start to prove his worth in the side.

I want St Kilda to be competitive in every game. I don't see the value in bottoming out, though it seems some are ready to concede next season as a "developmental year".[/quote]


Giving a young player who is 10% worse than another player who is just a GOP surely is better in the long run than playing the young player at Sandy hoping for injury or poor form. It wont lose us a game probably and gives a young guy experience. If it was that easy to get a game under your system surely you would have some names to give me.

[gringo]

I don't want a development year but this year we played a nice mix of old and young. Unfortunately guys like Raph and Faz are the guys who don't get games when we bring in the youth.

Next year there will be a few guys that will cement a starting role like Stanley, Siposs and Saad. Then we have guys like geary entrenched and a new crop of guys under them demanding development - Lee, Newnes, Ledger etc.

Ray can see the writing on the wall and if he gets 15 games next year he will be doing well. I like him but you have to let him continue his career or it's not really fair on him.

[class of 2010]

17 disposals per game for a 26 year old midfielder with 8 years experience is not good enough. Ray looks laconic and is laconic. He lacks intensity and consistency. If he is traded I hope we can get adequate compensation.

laconic is the last word I'd use to describe Ray! He is a running machine, whenever we're kicking it out of defence it seems as though Ray is the only one to be able to make space and get a mark.