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SainterK wrote:Yes he does have great run and carry, but it's Ray in the side over Newnes, Ross, Ledger, Milera etc etc.
And on form probably deserves his place in the side over the aforementioned, you could argue. I'm all for bringing the kids through, but it's a fine line ... you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I agree, but there hasn't really been a moment when I've question why Ray wasn't in the side when a kid has been in playing a role.
Who else gets omitted to bring the kids through, keeping in mind I reckon we'll have a decent crop of them pushing for spots next year?
Don't get me wrong, I reckon they'd like to keep him, but would understand he's wanting to be an every week proposition.
SainterK wrote:It's a genuine question though Carl, who would you drop to bring in Siposs, Newnes or Markworth and kids like that?
Anyone they can outperform NOW in a particular role.
Not at some time in the future. In the here and now.
They've got to earn their spots, not be picked on promise.
Young players dont need to outperform older non star players. They just have to do nearly as well to get a game and fair enough.
+1 to that, plugger.
However, I considered Ray as being in the right age bracket - he was only 26 in season 2012 - so he'd be a good experienced player to retain for when Gram, Blake. Kosi, Fisher, Hayes, Roo, Milne etc.. retire and whilst the kids are still developing. Ray is very durable - so he'll be around and helping the kids settle in over the next 4 years.
Last edited by samoht on Sat 13 Oct 2012 11:15am, edited 1 time in total.
plugger66 wrote:I think Joey is our tagger now. And obviously did a btter job than I thought based on the B&F count.
I suppose that is the ideal scenario, a tagger who is also an outright gun… I always feel like we are playing a man down, if one of the starting mids has deplorable skills.
plugger66 wrote:
Young players dont need to outperform older non star players. They just have to do nearly as well to get a game and fair enough.
It's not fair enough at all. We're getting down to the essence of what a starting 18 is ... your best available. Not ''nearly'' your best available.
Not sure the kids would ever get a game then.
I'd be comfortable in saying that very good Sandy form translated to senior level isn't going to make them best available...however they still need opportunity and game time at that level to get them adjusted to it.
I guess that's where the 'nearly' comes into it, because going from 'nearly' to 'definite' best available probably only takes place in the seniors?
plugger66 wrote:I think Joey is our tagger now. And obviously did a btter job than I thought based on the B&F count.
I suppose that is the ideal scenario, a tagger who is also an outright gun… I always feel like we are playing a man down, if one of the starting mids has deplorable skills.
Credit to him that he signed again as well in that case, a guy happy not to individually shine, but make the team shine...
plugger66 wrote:Definitely nearly your best available if you are replacing guys like Ray and Raph.
I've got no problem with either of them missing if someone can come in and consistently do the job better.
But gifting kids games on promise in favour of guys who can do the job better right here, right now upsets the whole fabric of team selection.
It should be best available. I don't care what our premiership clock says either.
Who said gifting games. I am totally against that. It cant be best available when you are in our position. A player like Newnes will never get better playing all the time at Sandy so he will never get a game in the seniors baring injury. Raph is still a better player than Newnes but I wouldnt play Raph ahead on Newnes if they both at the club next year. Lee probably wont instantly be better than Kosi but if he is nearly as good he must play ahead of Kosi. CJ is still a btter player than Ledger but if you had the choice of the 2 then you must play Ledger ahead of CJ.
plugger66 wrote:Definitely nearly your best available if you are replacing guys like Ray and Raph.
I've got no problem with either of them missing if someone can come in and consistently do the job better.
But gifting kids games on promise in favour of guys who can do the job better right here, right now upsets the whole fabric of team selection.
It should be best available. I don't care what our premiership clock says either.
Who said gifting games. I am totally against that. It cant be best available when you are in our position. A player like Newnes will never get better playing all the time at Sandy so he will never get a game in the seniors baring injury. Raph is still a better player than Newnes but I wouldnt play Raph ahead on Newnes if they both at the club next year. Lee probably wont instantly be better than Kosi but if he is nearly as good he must play ahead of Kosi. CJ is still a btter player than Ledger but if you had the choice of the 2 then you must play Ledger ahead of CJ.
The kids need some mature bodies to play alongside - and we can't rush them.
Given that Gram, Blake. Kosi, Fisher, Hayes, Roo, Milne etc.. will retire at some stage, soon - Ray is in the right age bracket to retain.
He's durable and a utility - all the more reason to retain him - to play alongside the kids over the next few years.
Last edited by samoht on Sat 13 Oct 2012 11:32am, edited 1 time in total.
i thought Collingwood were crazy a few years ago when pumping games into a bunch of average kids and letting guys like Frazer, O'Bree and Ben Johnson run around in the VFL a couple of years later they won a premiership. Unfortunately we are outside the Premiership contender status so we need to find improvement. The kids are the hope, the old guys couldn't quite get the job done. Tough business footy. if you are outside that top 6 players your fair game to give up a spot to a promising lid.
gringo wrote:i thought Collingwood were crazy a few years ago when pumping games into a bunch of average kids and letting guys like Frazer, O'Bree and Ben Johnson run around in the VFL a couple of years later they won a premiership. Unfortunately we are outside the Premiership contender status so we need to find improvement. The kids are the hope, the old guys couldn't quite get the job done. Tough business footy. if you are outside that top 6 players your fair game to give up a spot to a promising lid.
I would play kids. The only lids I know are the tin lids and they wouldnt be good at footy IMO.
plugger66 wrote:Who said gifting games. I am totally against that. It cant be best available when you are in our position. A player like Newnes will never get better playing all the time at Sandy so he will never get a game in the seniors baring injury. Raph is still a better player than Newnes but I wouldnt play Raph ahead on Newnes if they both at the club next year. Lee probably wont instantly be better than Kosi but if he is nearly as good he must play ahead of Kosi. CJ is still a btter player than Ledger but if you had the choice of the 2 then you must play Ledger ahead of CJ.
Well I disagree with you Plugger.
I always want to see St Kilda field its best available team ... regardless of where we are on the "premiership clock".
Also, from what I've seen, Lee will be fighting Wilkes for a spot ... not Kosi.
plugger66 wrote:Who said gifting games. I am totally against that. It cant be best available when you are in our position. A player like Newnes will never get better playing all the time at Sandy so he will never get a game in the seniors baring injury. Raph is still a better player than Newnes but I wouldnt play Raph ahead on Newnes if they both at the club next year. Lee probably wont instantly be better than Kosi but if he is nearly as good he must play ahead of Kosi. CJ is still a btter player than Ledger but if you had the choice of the 2 then you must play Ledger ahead of CJ.
Well I disagree with you Plugger.
I always want to see St Kilda field its best available team ... regardless of where we are on the "premiership clock".
Also, from what I've seen, Lee will be fighting Wilkes for a spot ... not Kosi.
Where will Kosi be? So how do kids improve under your system? I cant think of one young player that should have played a game in the last 2 years if we did what you wanted.
I said the best available team. Wilkes already is better and I reckon Lee probably is as well.
plugger66 wrote:
Where will Kosi be? So how do kids improve under your system?
They grab a chance when it comes up and make a spot their own.
plugger66 wrote:
I cant think of one young player that should have played a game in the last 2 years if we did what you wanted.
Bollocks. There are injuries, suspensions, simple poor form. Consistent good form for Sandringham.
But Raph hardly played and Ray and even Peake are probably better senior players than Newnes or Cripps when they played their first game. Can you name a player who got a senior game who deseved it ahead of Ray or Raph or even Peake. Newnes certainly wasnt the 22 best player when he played. Doubt whether any young player was.
Play the kids. Pretty simple. If we can't win the flag, play the bloody kids and get them ready for our next tilt.
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"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
i'm all for the kids playing,
The kids need some mature bodies to play alongside - and we can't rush them.
Given that Gram, Blake. Kosi, Fisher, Hayes, Roo, Milne etc, etc... .. will retire at some stage, soon - Ray is in the right age bracket to retain.
He's durable and a utility - all the more reason to retain him - to play alongside the kids over the next few years.
I don't think that picking a team with view of your next premiership and picking a team with your best chance of winning that week are the same thing and of course aiming towards our next premiership is the most important thing.
I think the collingwood reference is a good one, who were clearly getting games into kids that were making less impact than senior guys for the sake of experience.
It's exactly this reason we should stay away from guys like Salopek, unless you were of the opinion that we will be serious challengers in the next 2 years.
The sooner our younger guys have 50+ games into them, the sooner we are going to see a more even team.
Blake - has to now be picked behind Simpkin
Kosi/Wilkes will need to be behind Lee & Stanley
even, wait for it… Saad should start to be preferred over Milne in the next year or two… however there is till room for both for the time being obviously.
