Swans Model

[dragit]

Having 800k extra salary cap helps

Exactly, equals 3 more decent or 2 more gun players... Plus the very dubious circumstances surrounding K Jacks drafting helps, he is a beauty.

So which 2-3 guns would they be

LRT, Richards, McGlynn, Pike etc

Give them some credit

They have cobbled together a group of journeymen players to create a sensational team, with the emphasis on TEAM

LRT & Richards would do... We'd have won another half dozen games with those 2 in our side this year. As if cost of housing effects whether players go to Sydney or not? In a game of inches, a ten percent difference in salary cap is just ridiculous.

Should Geelong have a smaller salary cap than Melbourne clubs because real estate down there is about half the price?

[CURLY]

Being able to offer overs to promising young players helps them developed when they need to.

[plugger66]

So which 2-3 guns would they be

LRT, Richards, McGlynn, Pike etc

Give them some credit

They have cobbled together a group of journeymen players to create a sensational team, with the emphasis on TEAM

LRT & Richards would do... We'd have won another half dozen games with those 2 in our side this year. As if cost of housing effects whether players go to Sydney or not? In a game of inches, a ten percent difference in salary cap is just ridiculous.

Should Geelong have a smaller salary cap than Melbourne clubs because real estate down there is about half the price?

My ex wife lives in Sydney and i can assure you people would not move up there for the same amount of money as they receive in Melbourne even if it meant losing their jobs. Well in her industry anyway. She says everything is dearer there and everyone knows that. I understand the other side as well regarding Adelaide but Sydney not being a footy town means they have to get more players from outside their state more than any other team.

Another thing I would suggest is any club could have got McGlynn, Kennedy and Richards or developed their own Pyke but they were smart enough to work out what they needed and get them. They may be a little more than they would have got here but it was more due to no one really wanting them that got them to Sydney.

[CURLY]

No one would have offered as much for McGlynn Kennedy and Richards.

[plugger66]

No one would have offered as much for McGlynn Kennedy and Richards.

Who said they did? Lets face it neither of us know but common sense suggests they didnt offer a fortune as none of those players where stars at the time.

[dragit]

I understand that the cost of living may be higher in Sydney, but I honestly don't think that would play any part in whether a footballer earning 200-400K chooses to go there or not.

It's not about making the comp even, it's about making sure AFL is strong in a rugby town. Why do they chooses Sydney to adjust the cap rather than rank and adjust all teams caps based on cost of living? Geelong to Melbourne would be a far more dramatic real estate price difference than Sydney to Melbourne. Brisbane & Adelaide would be cheaper for housing than Perth etc

I do acknowledge that Sydney put together a very good side and have turned the careers around for many players, they don't make the salary cap rules.

I find it annoying however that Brisbane won 3, Sydney may now win their 2nd over the past 15 years... They are hard enough to win without some opponents having an extra 10% to spend on players. Both of those sides put us out of business in finals a number of times over the past 10 years... Makes you wonder.

[gringo]

Sydney and Hawthorn have both been good at finding that player that is in the Sainter K point of development. They are just travelling but just before they are ready to be a Gwilt, Dempster or Geary and take that next step they nab them for very little outlay.

Mc Glynn, Kennedy, Gunston, Mumford, Gibson even Hale all showed a little promise but have taken the next step. Their talent for compiling a good list without the big name recruits is awesome. I think trading for big names on big money is really dangerous but getting bargains from anywhere is the key, just like fantasy footy it's all about the bargains.

[dragit]

Sydney and Hawthorn have both been good at finding that player that is in the Sainter K point of development. They are just travelling but just before they are ready to be a Gwilt, Dempster or Geary and take that next step they nab them for very little outlay.

Mc Glynn, Kennedy, Gunston, Mumford, Gibson even Hale all showed a little promise but have taken the next step. Their talent for compiling a good list without the big name recruits is awesome. I think trading for big names on big money is really dangerous but getting bargains from anywhere is the key, just like fantasy footy it's all about the bargains.

Mumford, Gibson, Burgoyne and even Gunston were all highly sought after though, it's not like they were the only clubs interested. Mumford and our very own T. Walsh went to Sydney because Sydney could offer more money than anyone else, I'm sure all clubs offer 'opportunity''.

They have taken 4 forwards from us including the greatest goal kicker of all time… you would think that these days it would be hard to argue that Sydney find it hard to attract & retain players because of 'cost of living'

"Oh no, I'm not going to go and play for Sydney, I'm requesting a trade to Port Adelaide because the houses are just so much cheaper there, even bread & milk are cheaper too which is a bonus"

[plugger66]

Sydney and Hawthorn have both been good at finding that player that is in the Sainter K point of development. They are just travelling but just before they are ready to be a Gwilt, Dempster or Geary and take that next step they nab them for very little outlay.

Mc Glynn, Kennedy, Gunston, Mumford, Gibson even Hale all showed a little promise but have taken the next step. Their talent for compiling a good list without the big name recruits is awesome. I think trading for big names on big money is really dangerous but getting bargains from anywhere is the key, just like fantasy footy it's all about the bargains.

Mumford, Gibson, Burgoyne and even Gunston were all highly sought after though, it's not like they were the only clubs interested. Mumford and our very own T. Walsh went to Sydney because Sydney could offer more money than anyone else, I'm sure all clubs offer 'opportunity''.

They have taken 4 forwards from us including the greatest goal kicker of all time… you would think that these days it would be hard to argue that Sydney find it hard to attract & retain players because of 'cost of living'

"Oh no, I'm not going to go and play for Sydney, I'm requesting a trade to Port Adelaide because the houses are just so much cheaper there, even bread & milk are cheaper too which is a bonus"

No one is saying they leave Sydney to save money. People are saying they may not move to Sydney because of the cost of living. Anyway the only player they have recruited lately that has helped them and probably a lot more than other clubs could afford is Mumford. I still say the others they have recruited wouldnt have a got a huge lot more in Sydney than other clubs because they werent really setting the world on fire.

[gringo]

Even Mumford really only got good money for a guy at a VFL team. He wasn't a regular Cats player so he was a bargain in hind sight not unaffordable. When you consider what Carlton paid to get Warnock.

[dragit]

No one is saying they leave Sydney to save money. People are saying they may not move to Sydney because of the cost of living. Anyway the only player they have recruited lately that has helped them and probably a lot more than other clubs could afford is Mumford. I still say the others they have recruited wouldnt have a got a huge lot more in Sydney than other clubs because they werent really setting the world on fire.

I just completely contest the notion that a footballer earning 200+K would chose not to move to Sydney because of cost of living… Cost of living would not even register in the decision making of moving clubs.

It's not just the fact that Sydney could offer slightly more, it's the fact that they can afford another 2-3 very good players… We couldn't afford to keep Walsh, we wouldn't have been able to afford even the average players that they have traded in. We can afford Polo & Pattinson, while they get Kennedy & Mumford… slight difference.

[plugger66]

No one is saying they leave Sydney to save money. People are saying they may not move to Sydney because of the cost of living. Anyway the only player they have recruited lately that has helped them and probably a lot more than other clubs could afford is Mumford. I still say the others they have recruited wouldnt have a got a huge lot more in Sydney than other clubs because they werent really setting the world on fire.

I just completely contest the notion that a footballer earning 200+K would chose not to move to Sydney because of cost of living… Cost of living would not even register in the decision making of moving clubs.

It's not just the fact that Sydney could offer slightly more, it's the fact that they can afford another 2-3 very good players… We couldn't afford to keep Walsh, we wouldn't have been able to afford even the average players that they have traded in. We can afford Polo & Pattinson, while they get Kennedy & Mumford… slight difference.

Kennedy wouldnt have gone for much at all. I suggest 200k which all clubs could afford. it was excellent recruiting. I agree on Mumford as it was written he got more than he was worth IMO. I also still say players would want more money to go to Sydney than any other state. That it seems we will disagree on that.

[dragit]

Even Mumford really only got good money for a guy at a VFL team. He wasn't a regular Cats player so he was a bargain in hind sight not unaffordable. When you consider what Carlton paid to get Warnock.

Mumford must have really agonised over the cost of living difference though before moving.

150K at Geelong, cheap rent with views of Corio Bay, cheap bread & milk maybe a free lend of a Ford Festiva for his contract period.

vs

1,000,000 - 3 year deal, expensive rent overlooking Sydney Harbour, tricky ferry system to navigate, could probably only afford a BMW.

[SinCitySainter]

As to cost of living in Sydney compared to Melbourne there is very little difference.
As my username suggests I have lived in Sydney and spent a number of years in both cities.
The lifestyle is Sydney is great if you have a reasonable amount of cash and at the top end it is no more expensive than living in Melbourne.
You will pay over a Mill for an apartment over looking the Harbour, you will pay over a mill for an apartment overlooking the bay.
Remember we are not considering cost of living for someone on the basic wage here but individuals on the drastically inflated wages that footballers receive.

Tommy Walsh had shown very little when they approached him with large bags full of cash.
However, he was considered a player of great potential because of his physical attributes.
We couldn't throw 300K per annum at a project player because we don't have an extra 800K in our salary cap.

People talk as if players immediately become better players when they enter the Sydney system.
This is simply not true, Sydney ahs had their hits and misses just the same as every other club.
You cannot argue that Dempster has becaome a far better player since joining us, they gave him away as the steak knives in the Schneider deal.

Just look at the players on their list they got from other clubs, some have been a resounding success like Mumford and McGlynn.
Mattner was a very good footballer before he went to Sydney so no real surprise he is still good.
Andrejs Everitt was crap at the dogs and still appears to be crap at the Swans.
Tommy Walsh couldn't read the agme when he was playing for Sandy and still can't read the game at Sydney.

They appear to have more success with recycled players than other clubs only because they recycle more than other clubs.

[plugger66]

As to cost of living in Sydney compared to Melbourne there is very little difference.
As my username suggests I have lived in Sydney and spent a number of years in both cities.
The lifestyle is Sydney is great if you have a reasonable amount of cash and at the top end it is no more expensive than living in Melbourne.
You will pay over a Mill for an apartment over looking the Harbour, you will pay over a mill for an apartment overlooking the bay.
Remember we are not considering cost of living for someone on the basic wage here but individuals on the drastically inflated wages that footballers receive.

Tommy Walsh had shown very little when they approached him with large bags full of cash.
However, he was considered a player of great potential because of his physical attributes.
We couldn't throw 300K per annum at a project player because we don't have an extra 800K in our salary cap.

People talk as if players immediately become better players when they enter the Sydney system.
This is simply not true, Sydney ahs had their hits and misses just the same as every other club.
You cannot argue that Dempster has becaome a far better player since joining us, they gave him away as the steak knives in the Schneider deal.

Just look at the players on their list they got from other clubs, some have been a resounding success like Mumford and McGlynn.
Mattner was a very good footballer before he went to Sydney so no real surprise he is still good.
Andrejs Everitt was crap at the dogs and still appears to be crap at the Swans.
Tommy Walsh couldn't read the agme when he was playing for Sandy and still can't read the game at Sydney.

They appear to have more success with recycled players than other clubs only because they recycle more than other clubs.

However they do have more success. They have failures as well but I have no doubt they target players better than any other club. How can they be in the top 8 for so long when they havent had great picks in the draft? I would suggest great trading coupled with the occasional failure.

[CURLY]

The point is the Swans grab players that aren't developed yet. Of course when they get to 25/26 they'll play there best football.

[happy feet]

I have just copied this from the Collingwood Bulletin Board - what a joke - it's the best case of pot & kettle syndrome ever.


It's the first time I've seen a game at ANZ, so I don't know if it's typical, but I was really surprised by the behaviour of the crowd on Friday night.

They booed Collingwood players indiscriminantly all night whenever they took a mark or especially, were lining up for goal. And I'm not talking a few wags trying to put them off, I'm talking the whole crowd. They also jeered Collingwood mistakes, and cheered our points as joyfully as they cheered their goals.

It was impressive in a way because they were united in it, but that was also the problem for me. Every club has one-eyed, feral supporters who have a different code for supporting their team that doesn't involve sportsmanship, decency or any respect for the spirit of the contest. From the evidence of Friday night, that's how most or all Swans supporters take to the game.

I now hate Sydney more than Carlton, Brisbane or West Coast and I will be barracking for Hawthorn enthusiastically on grand final day.

And I won't be returning to ANZ stadium to watch a game. What a crap venue. Never thought I'd be grateful for the crap catering and inflated prices at the MCG. It took an HOUR to get out of the carpark after the game.
_________________

[bergholt]

So: how have they done it?

Plenty of people hate it, but recycling has been their modus operandi for a long time, ignoring the salary cap debate for a minute. The 2005 premiership side had six pretty important players who started their careers elsewhere:

Ball, C Bolton, Davis, Hall, Jolly, Williams

Their 2012 prelim side had a different six, mostly just as important:

Kennedy, Mattner, Morton, Mumford, Richards, Shaw

Not to mention another five on the list in Everitt, McGlynn, Seaby, Spangher and Walsh.

In our last game this year we had four: Dempster, Gram, Ray, Wilkes. Also on the list were another three: Peake, Polo and Schneider. So we had seven recycled players on our list while they had eleven, and notwithstanding Dempster's great season, theirs are definitely better than ours.

So how they've done it is to pick recycled players well, and resurrect their careers really well. Only Mumford was a star when he went up there, Shaw was pretty good, but Kennedy and Richards have come from nowhere to be AA, and all of Mattner, McGlynn and Morton play roles really well.

If we want to follow the Sydney trajectory, we have to grab solid mature players from other clubs and improve them. Picking up too many 18 year olds could easily leave us in Melbourne or Richmond's position.

[gringo]

I like Sydney' s ability to take the really good kids in strong drafts and then use their later picks or preseason picks on the mature guys. they cost very little in trade terms while still nabbing guys like Jetta, Hannerbury etc. with their earlier picks.

it helps that they got a couple of speculative picks come good like Grundy, Bird and Jack to add to the handful of their mature players.

[bergholt]

I like Sydney' s ability to take the really good kids in strong drafts and then use their later picks or preseason picks on the mature guys. they cost very little in trade terms while still nabbing guys like Jetta, Hannerbury etc. with their earlier picks.

Maybe, though I'm not sure they nailed that many picks. In four full drafts between 05 and 08, they got just six players: Jack, White, Smith, Bird, Hannebery and Pyke. The rest from those drafts are gone (except Brett Meredith and Campbell Heath who are likely to be gone this year) - that's 28 picks out of 34 which amounted to little more than nothing.

Then they got lucky in 09/10, getting Rohan, Jetta, Reid, Parker and Johnson, along with Dennis-Lane and Spangher, and Jed Lamb who hasn't debuted yet so might be no good. 2011 is too soon to tell.

Their core is from before these drafts: Goodes, Bolton, O'Keefe, Roberts-Thomson, Malceski, McVeigh, Grundy. Overall, their lineup is about one-third semi-veterans, one-third recycled players, one-third (relatively) recent draftees. That's probably not a bad model to aim for.

2005 51: M Laidlaw, 54: K Thornton, 59: R Brabazon, R16: J Simpkin, R32: J Wall, R45: P Currie, R54: S Phillips, R57: K Jack, R58: E Barlow, R59: A Prior, R60: S Rowe
2006 15: D O'Keefe, 49: D Currie, 65: P Faulks, 79: J White, R15: N Smith, R30: M O'Dwyer, R44: L Brennan, R55: M Davis, R59: E Shaw
2007 11: P Veszpremi, 26: B Meredith, 59: C Bird, R10: M O'Dwyer, R26: B Murphy, R41: J Orreal, R53: M Beckmans, R58: A Bruce, R61: D Terlich
2008 12: L Johnston, 30: D Hannebery, 61: C Heath, R12: K Thornton, R28: T Gilchrist, R43: K Coney, R57: M Pyke
2009 6: G Rohan, 14: L Jetta, 38: S Reid, 54: Sumner, 55: T Dennis-Lane, PS4: D Bradshaw, R10: H Playfair, R63: C McKaigue, R71: N Gordon, R75: D McNeil
2010 21: J Lamb, 40: L Parker, 57: A Johnson, 73: M Spangher, R21: M Otten, R38: B Haren, R88: E Kruger

[Con Gorozidis]

Good thing about Swans winning is it will bring Paul Roos down a peg.
SInce 2005 he has been roaming around like he some mystical guru on a higher plain to everyone else. Knob.
Just go and recruit me some players/blokes like Jude Bolton and Adam Goodes and the rest will follow.

[Ice Wolf]

They normally look to St Kilda when they need a Full Forward

Lockett
Hall
Walsh


2 out of 3 aint bad.....

Soooooo, would Kosi like to move to Sin City?
Maybe the warmer climate might help prolong his career?
What would they give us for him?
Have they got any more Sean Dempsters...?

They need to be blonde.

[dragit]

Can anyone tell me whether the swans pay their rookie and 1st year players 10% more than other clubs, or does their inflated salary cap go purely towards their mature & top end players?

[terry smith rules]

Their core is from before these drafts: Goodes, Bolton, O'Keefe, Roberts-Thomson, Malceski, McVeigh, Grundy. Overall, their lineup is about one-third semi-veterans, one-third recycled players, one-third (relatively) recent draftees. That's probably not a bad model to aim for.

2005 51: M Laidlaw, 54: K Thornton, 59: R Brabazon, R16: J Simpkin, R32: J Wall, R45: P Currie, R54: S Phillips, R57: K Jack, R58: E Barlow, R59: A Prior, R60: S Rowe
2006 15: D O'Keefe, 49: D Currie, 65: P Faulks, 79: J White, R15: N Smith, R30: M O'Dwyer, R44: L Brennan, R55: M Davis, R59: E Shaw
2007 11: P Veszpremi, 26: B Meredith, 59: C Bird, R10: M O'Dwyer, R26: B Murphy, R41: J Orreal, R53: M Beckmans, R58: A Bruce, R61: D Terlich
2008 12: L Johnston, 30: D Hannebery, 61: C Heath, R12: K Thornton, R28: T Gilchrist, R43: K Coney, R57: M Pyke
2009 6: G Rohan, 14: L Jetta, 38: S Reid, 54: Sumner, 55: T Dennis-Lane, PS4: D Bradshaw, R10: H Playfair, R63: C McKaigue, R71: N Gordon, R75: D McNeil
2010 21: J Lamb, 40: L Parker, 57: A Johnson, 73: M Spangher, R21: M Otten, R38: B Haren, R88: E Kruger

I like your 1/3 model above.

They have icked up some beauties in mid draft
Bird @59 and Johnson @57 (he is going to be a gun)

I am sure money had nothing to do with Kennedy and McGlynn to Sydney, they simply could not get games (Kennedy 13 in 3 seasons at the hawks), they needed opportunities

[Con Gorozidis]

The point is they play as a team and they get the most out of their players. Not sure anything can be learnt from tracking their draft patterns. Look at McGlynn - was hopeless at the Hawks.