Clinton Jones

[bigcarl]

Even if he's not in the senior team for the majority of the year, what a brilliant depth player. Hard, tough, has finals experience, can win the footy, knows how to tag or play a defensive role.

Great sort of player to have on the list, regardless of his age. Bit like Blake.

Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

In many cases the answer is, No.

[bergholt]

Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

next year, no. in three years, almost certainly yes. both blake and jones would be gone in three years whereas a new draftee who would fill their spot could be at least a depth player by then. so it's all about your payback horizon.

[bigcarl]

Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

next year, no. in three years, almost certainly yes. both blake and jones would be gone in three years whereas a new draftee who would fill their spot could be at least a depth player by then. so it's all about your payback horizon.

So do we simply give up on being contenders next season and the two seasons after that?

Personally I can't see the point in "bottoming out". We might end up a basket case like Melbourne.

The club's got to be very careful here, imo, in not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Particularly in Jones's case as he's still relatively young.

If it was me, I'd keep them both.

[skeptic]

remind me again, what's CJ doing that's soooooo invaluable?

[bigcarl]

remind me again, what's CJ doing that's soooooo invaluable?

He's not invaluable, but he's experienced, tough, wins plenty of the ball and works hard. Some can't get past his awkward kicking style, but I like him for his other attributes.

[dragit]

Particularly in Jones's case as he's still relatively young.

He'll be 29 before round 1 next year.

[bigcarl]

Particularly in Jones's case as he's still relatively young.

He'll be 29 before round 1 next year.

So he's only 28 at the moment. That is relatively young ... relative to Blake.

[dragit]

Particularly in Jones's case as he's still relatively young.

He'll be 29 before round 1 next year.

So he's only 28 at the moment. That is relatively young ... relative to Blake.

And even younger relative to Lou Richards

[bigcarl]

Particularly in Jones's case as he's still relatively young.

He'll be 29 before round 1 next year.

So he's only 28 at the moment. That is relatively young ... relative to Blake.

And even younger relative to Lou Richards[/quote]

Haha, Read the original quote in context and you will see I'm saying he's relatively young compared to Blake.

[mad saint guy]

[Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

In many cases the answer is, No.

I disagree there. Ledger did more impressive things in his limited opportunities than Jones did all year. Ray is a better option as a tagger and one of Ledger, Newnes, Ross or Curren should take Jones' place as an extra mid.

Polo, McQualter and Peake were match-hardened, experienced players and they were discarded lightly

[battye]

[Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

In many cases the answer is, No.

I disagree there. Ledger did more impressive things in his limited opportunities than Jones did all year. Ray is a better option as a tagger and one of Ledger, Newnes, Ross or Curren should take Jones' place as an extra mid.

Polo, McQualter and Peake were match-hardened, experienced players and they were discarded lightly

Don't agree on Ledger. Didn't see anything yet to suggest he'll be a better player than Jones.

Ray on the other hand... he's only 26, I reckon he has the ability to take his game to another level. Ray adds a lot to the team IMO.

[dragit]

Haha, Read the original quote in context and you will see I'm saying he's relatively young compared to Blake.

Yeah sorry, Carl, I was being a bit silly…
At any rate, I think that for where are are sitting at the moment, a 29 year old tagger who can't kick isn't going to help us much from here on, I think we are now officially rebuilding/developing.

[bigcarl]

Haha, Read the original quote in context and you will see I'm saying he's relatively young compared to Blake.

Yeah sorry, Carl, I was being a bit silly…
At any rate, I think that for where are are sitting at the moment, a 29 year old tagger who can't kick isn't going to help us much from here on, I think we are now officially rebuilding/developing.

Well i guess it depends on whether you consider us a chance to contend again as early as next season. Personally I think we can if a few things go right.

It's Lenny's last crack at it ... maybe ask him whether he's going to give it 100 per cent.

We've got some good young talent coming through.

We've got some excellent, finals hardened older players who are still capable of very good football.

The spine is good if we can find a tall key defender.

Unlike this season we'd need to get off to a flyer and to build on the early momentum. .

I cannot see the point of getting rid of dead wood that isnt dead.

[dragit]

It's Lenny's last crack at it ... maybe ask him whether he's going to give it 100 per cent.

I cannot see the point of getting rid of dead wood that isnt dead.

I don't doubt any of their efforts or intentions… but their age is against them, in fact age was against us when we played the Grand Final replay 2 years ago.

Riewoldt & Kosi are still giving 100%, but Nick is about 70% of the player he was 3 years ago and Kosi… well I won't say anything mean, so I won't say anything at all.

I'm comfortable with the reality that we will be spending some time towards the bottom of the ladder, I think the players are too… & it won't be because they aren't giving 100%, it will be because there will be a lot of sides with better, younger lists of players than us.

[bigcarl]

It's Lenny's last crack at it ... maybe ask him whether he's going to give it 100 per cent.

I cannot see the point of getting rid of dead wood that isnt dead.

I don't doubt any of their efforts or intentions… but their age is against them, in fact age was against us when we played the Grand Final replay 2 years ago.

Riewoldt & Kosi are still giving 100%, but Nick is about 70% of the player he was 3 years ago and Kosi… well I won't say anything mean, so I won't say anything at all.

I'm comfortable with the reality that we will be spending some time towards the bottom of the ladder, I think the players are too… & it won't be because they aren't giving 100%, it will be because there will be a lot of sides with better, younger lists of players than us.

Like I said, it depends whether you think we can contend. I think we can. You don't.

[mad saint guy]

Like I said, it depends whether you think we can contend. I think we can. You don't.

I think that in order to contend, we need to drastically improve the quality of ball use across the field. The obvious way to do this would be to discontinue playing a tagger who can no longer tag and has never been able to kick. Replacing dead wood with young talent won't hurt our chances at all. Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn have had very young players as important parts of very good sides.

[dragit]

Like I said, it depends whether you think we can contend. I think we can. You don't.

Sure no worries…

Personally, I can see something written on the wall…
"TIME TO REBUILD YOUR LIST"

[bigcarl]

I think that in order to contend, we need to drastically improve the quality of ball use across the field. The obvious way to do this would be to discontinue playing a tagger who can no longer tag and has never been able to kick. Replacing dead wood with young talent won't hurt our chances at all. Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn have had very young players as important parts of very good sides.

Granted, he's not a great kick, but let's not forget his attributes. He's tough, experienced and wins plenty of the ball. I don't think he is dead wood and I'm not sure the coach does either.

[Dr Spaceman]

The poor kicking is a bit of a tricky one.

The guy's not a youngster so there’s probably not much scope for improvement. No doubt the majority of his problems stem from a poor technique however I reckon a fair bit of it also relates to a lack of confidence. And that lack of confidence increases each year with each poor kick.

So do you play safe and demand he handballs and gives the ball off inside the forward 50? Trouble is you have to kick the damn thing sometimes and you even have to take a shot at goal on occasions. With Clint you can almost see his confidence hitting new lows anytime he's running towards the sticks.

So do you try to limit the damage or do you back him in to take a kick if that's the best option?

I reckon if you're gonna play him then you just have to back him to kick the ball.

Otherwise just don't select him.

[Gershwin]

From a theoretical point of view I believe that there is a place for a tagger. A bloke that can wear the opposition player like a second skin and negate their influence on the game.
I think Clint Jones is our best tagger.
Keep him.

[ShanghaiSaint]

[Agree. Match-hardened, experienced, tough players like these two are not to be discarded lightly.

You have to ask yourself, Is the potential replacement really going to add more to the team?

In many cases the answer is, No.

I disagree there. Ledger did more impressive things in his limited opportunities than Jones did all year.

dont agree witht he build up Ledger had I found him disappointing... Dunell on the other hand has done great in his limited time.

[ShanghaiSaint]

I personally think our list is great at the moment. we have new blood shining and experience... ad a ruckmen and a defender.. polish up our new game plan and I think we're right in the mix for next year.

[mad saint guy]

dont agree witht he build up Ledger had I found him disappointing... Dunell on the other hand has done great in his limited time.

Don't get me wrong, Ledger has plenty to work on, but he also has plenty to work with. He needs to build his tank and get his defensive running up to scratch and also get used to the pace of AFL footy. I feel with extended opportunities he'll stop trying to do too much and impress the coaches with every touch, which sometimes makes him overthink the situation and stuff it up. What has impressed me is his ability to go in hard and extract the footy as well as being on the end of the chain several times and delivering beautifully into the forward line. With inside ball winning skills, pace, aggression and good footskills (when composed), I think he should be pushing for a regular senior gig if he has a good pre season.

I agree that Dunell was very impressive. I think the coaches need to decide what role he will play and really get him to work on building his game over the pre season for that role. Currently he's too slight to play forward, doesn't quite have the tank for the midfield and probably doesn't have the defensive skills to play back. But with his skills, athleticism and rate of improvement I think he could either bulk up to play forward, become a strong runner for midfield or learn how to play defence by round 1 next year.

These are the kinds of players along with Siposs, Stanley, Newnes, Milera, Ross etc that should be put on top of the priority list. The only way we'll be competitive over the next few years is if these guys are given opportunities and responsibility. Continuing to play Jones and Raph despite their permanent shortcomings won't do us any good at all. People wanting depth players should look at the likes of Blake and Ray as the benchmark - they're versatile, solid contributors that aren't holding anyone back and give enough both offensively and defensively.

[BigMart]

Tom Ledger is 20 yeah..

So it's an excuse for some, but not for other now...... Minutes per possession, he would double Cripps and has had less opportunity.

Has possibly been The Zebras best player this year, not bad for a 20yo in the VFL.....

His disposal is a bit of a concern, but is better than many on StK's list, including Jack Steven whose disposal and decision making is appalling....... Biggest issue is his habit of kicking with his left foot

In fact Ledger's career is very similar to Steven's at the same stage (2009) and he is a very similar player... A quick inside mid who can break away from stoppages......and some rave about Jackary

remember kids under 10 games are allowed to play poorly at times.... As long as they can show some positives.....
His positives, tough and can find the ball.... There's a start

[bobmurray]

Polo, McQualter and Peake were match-hardened, experienced players and they were discarded lightly

Yes...... but the reality is they were fairly ordinary players at AFL level...they needed to be dumped if the club was seriously contemplating success..