"It ain't over till it's over"

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kalsaint
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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256404Post kalsaint »

NOTTHATAWKWARD wrote:
kalsaint wrote:While these appear like sour grapes as I know as we wernt good enough over the full year, the former reasons do continue to contrubute to a level of inequallity that the AFL dont allow with respect other inequalities like villification, so why not improve these other areas too?

I can provide numerous examples here but wont and just hope for greater equality next year. Adrian Anderson believes he shows integrity? Look again I say. It's still wanting
Please elaborate, not baiting just generally interested because I think I know what your on about, would just like some clarification and am also interested in other theories.

I have responded on many posts over the year on these:

1 Umpires - difficult job as rules and particularly intrepretations have change regularly over the last 3-4 years. They get deciaions wrong often under crowd pressurelate in a game that is of consequence. They are humnas and need more technological help such as; replays, better placed cameras, last 10 minutes to allow significant intrusion by technology used for reviews if required, as games are won or lost by decisions at this time of the game.

2 AFL change rules, egs are;
2.1 Ruck contacts run ups and contact versus no contact. This killed smaller athletic rucks like Mebournes White but helped others like Cox massively. The giants came back but further rule changes around player making play for the ball led to longer taps and running rucks again later. Umpires are still catching up on these and still get decision wrong and now pay really soft frees to rucks (ask Cox).
2.2 Out of bounds rulings; deliberate out of bounds with forward ball movement?!!, players being pushed near boundary to try to get ball to contact pushed player resulting in OOB, blocks at clearances on key players (started with Bhudda Hocking on Harvey but really has grown significantly in lat 3 years). Players now getting smashed like the ruckmen were previously so what was the point of the ruck changes?
2.3 Players fall on the player with teh ball and the player with the ball is penalised. He has to be super human to remove the weight of packs but umpires still penalise these guys often late in ctirical games, when worn out and tiered, but not consistently early in games when fresh, just they try to keep the game moving and clear packs. Makes some games like Rugby. This never happened before and look ugly because coaches adapted to the new rules to offset the rule change.
2.4 Umpires should not be in real estate. the 50 metre penalty has a new variance being dependent on the umpire at the time. Lines on teh ground are not used as reference points and should be. Lights off the ground could provide better guidance to umpires on distances.
2.5 The push in the back rule. This is not doing what it was designed for, that is; to stop damage to players. Players now pull the tackling player or take a dive (now at higher game speed so its not easily discernible) to procure free kicks. Tackling players often dont touch a falling tackled player but still get kicks paid against them!!!
2.6 Hands in teh back while marking. Was designed to be 2 clear movements rather than protecting space. The rule was brough in with gusro but by years end had nearly disappeared with lots of confusion when it rerappeared in the finals of 2010. It returned with more definition and purpose in 2011 but umpires found this difficult to judge consisitently so tend to pluck frees based on crow noise rather than player movement or activity, often late in agame when not previously called.
2.7 Sweeping of the arm during marking. Not many defenders liked this as teams had developed smaller running defenses that no longer could match the new rule requirement. The interpretation changesd over a 18 month period and now is missed 80% of the time so were back to 2008 rules again. Guys like Nick benefitted from this rule and as defenders developed tunnelling to offset it now Nick takes less big contested marks than he used to. The consequence is that coaches change team plays and smaller defenders are now able to smash the arms of leading forwards without penalty regularly. The bigger strongly build forwards dont suffer so much from these defensive ploys.
2.8 The "Dont Argue" is applied and the player is tackled but not often penalised unless the tackle is followed through to eventually pin an arm. This favours bigger players. It never was called that way previously.
2.9 Kicking in danger; This is virtually never applied but often is used to even out a poor earlier decision when a player is caught up in the contest, looks like he is to lose the ball but gets a kick to his body while players scramble for the ball. This provides the umpire with a free hit to allow a defender to receive a penalty when in acyual fact would normally have lost the ball with newer interpretations. Usaually this happens closer to the end of games to avoid a contentious free kick to forwards. Not applied consistently.
2.10 I can gp on but wont.

3 Short term ALF management rule changes. Short term management decisions actually destroys some clubs recruitment choices and leads to another 1 or 2 years of team development to cater for the change. The reason is that the coach is always going to seek ways tio negte the rule change legally. This often required a differnt team balance in term of pure speed, power speed for short intervals, vertical elevation, scragging (2 that I missed above), player run and kick arcs, body size for home and away versus finals interpretations etc etc.
3.1 In short there are clubs that have spend heaps of money on recruitment to make poor choices due to AFL short term changes. I see this as totally unfair. An example is when Brisbane had the running but big bodied players in and under players that many teams started to develop. Geelong, Saints and Fremantle come to mind here. Geelong developed a more even team skill set and a different game plan that suited the changes at the time. Saints got slow (Goddard put on 7 kgs one preseason to meet the demand). Fremantle became big and tall but were run off the park by many teams as others sought speed and made the correct choice. Terry Wallace made a comment on radio when coaching Richmond for a game in Perth against Freo. He said he walked onto the ground and thought, wow Freo are big and he immediately started small and directed Richmond to run them off their legs. They won by +50points. I t took 85 years for Freo to recover the team size and skillset to become competitive again. I think this is toally unfair and attributed alot to AFL Management changing the game too quickly at times. It means teams at different stage of recruitment basically have to get out a crystal ball for the long term.
3.2 Changes like this are not acceptable from a business (AFL) that is managing an organisation and driving equal opportunity in other ways. I respect their choice to outlaw villification etc but the same should occur from them to the clubs to maintain equal opportunity in their club management. Things to stablilse and maintain integrity to this EEO are; fixtures, travel interstate, consecutive breaks should not vastly favour any particular club.
3.3 If they were to get a mathematician to run multi variable analysis they should be able to pick up the key impacts on the game Equal Opportunities and resolve much of this. Without it they are not standing by their own policy and values espoused on honesty, integrity and fairness. Worst still they say one thing and dont behave that way. Needs more work here Andrew and Adrian.


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kosifantutti
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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256414Post kosifantutti »

kalsaint wrote:
1 Umpires - difficult job as rules and particularly intrepretations have change regularly over the last 3-4 years. They get deciaions wrong often under crowd pressurelate in a game that is of consequence. They are humnas and need more technological help such as; replays, better placed cameras, last 10 minutes to allow significant intrusion by technology used for reviews if required, as games are won or lost by decisions at this time of the game.
I assume that's a joke.


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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256423Post Moods »

kosifantutti wrote:
kalsaint wrote:
1 Umpires - difficult job as rules and particularly intrepretations have change regularly over the last 3-4 years. They get deciaions wrong often under crowd pressurelate in a game that is of consequence. They are humnas and need more technological help such as; replays, better placed cameras, last 10 minutes to allow significant intrusion by technology used for reviews if required, as games are won or lost by decisions at this time of the game.
I assume that's a joke.
I thought his whole post was a joke. Time to take the tin foil hat off I think. Talk about one giant whinge over nothing.

And for all those ppl who claim conspiracies re the saints and their fixture - did you ever once stop to think how our % came to be so massive, considering our ladder position? That's right we played more than our fair share of gumby teams this year. The fact of the matter is we weren't good enough to beat enough teams around the same mark as us. ie North, Freo, Richmond and even the cats. We just weren't good enough. We had a good run with injuries compared with other teams, there are no excuses.


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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256433Post thejiggingsaint »

Someone once said "fools seek excuses, wise men seek reasons" If we wish to go on forever wringing our hands and gnashing our teeth in frustration over what might have been, and not look realistically at what HAS been, and (more importantly) what CAN be, then we are truly in the Schitt as a club. This season has been one of the most unpredictable in decades, and inconsistency has been the order of the day. We (like other teams around the top eight) have been so inconsistent in our results. Moods, I'm not 100% sure that I agree about us being "not good enough to beat teams around the same mark as us ' The only game where I felt we were totally beaten was the Cats game. As for those teams who have (supposedly) "overtaken us in development" well,our worst loss was by seven goals (Geelong) and we did manage to beat the Dullbogs (unlike North!) Gold Coast (unlike Richmond) and Carlton (unlike Colondud) We were coming at Port like an express train in rd 1 but a lousy 1st 1/4 did us...North? Well "mighty North" gave up a six goal lead in their loss to Port! We won't mention the floggings given to Collingwood by Carlton and the Hawks!...oh yes, not to mention our demolition of Sydney in rd9! Richmond? oh yes, I remember now, an 8 point thrashing :roll: in one of the best games of footy I've been to EVER! where are the mighty Tigers now? The loss against Richmond probably came down to our missing easy set shots at crucial stages of the game, I won't hear a word of criticism regarding our effort and commitment in that game.
Inconsistency, basic skill errors, and the inexperience of some of our kids are REASONS for our present position not EXCUSES. All of this can, and will be fixed! This Coach means business, and I'm SO excited about the next few seasons!!! Lets do ourselves a favour, and lets go to the game this week, to simply see the footy, enjoy a game wiithout any pressure and make a pledge to be back ready to rock NEXT year!!!!!
God I love this club!!!!!! GO SAINTSGOSAINTSGOSAINTSGOSAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256559Post Moods »

thejiggingsaint wrote:Someone once said "fools seek excuses, wise men seek reasons" If we wish to go on forever wringing our hands and gnashing our teeth in frustration over what might have been, and not look realistically at what HAS been, and (more importantly) what CAN be, then we are truly in the Schitt as a club. This season has been one of the most unpredictable in decades, and inconsistency has been the order of the day. We (like other teams around the top eight) have been so inconsistent in our results. Moods, I'm not 100% sure that I agree about us being "not good enough to beat teams around the same mark as us ' The only game where I felt we were totally beaten was the Cats game. As for those teams who have (supposedly) "overtaken us in development" well,our worst loss was by seven goals (Geelong) and we did manage to beat the Dullbogs (unlike North!) Gold Coast (unlike Richmond) and Carlton (unlike Colondud) We were coming at Port like an express train in rd 1 but a lousy 1st 1/4 did us...North? Well "mighty North" gave up a six goal lead in their loss to Port! We won't mention the floggings given to Collingwood by Carlton and the Hawks!...oh yes, not to mention our demolition of Sydney in rd9! Richmond? oh yes, I remember now, an 8 point thrashing :roll: in one of the best games of footy I've been to EVER! where are the mighty Tigers now? The loss against Richmond probably came down to our missing easy set shots at crucial stages of the game, I won't hear a word of criticism regarding our effort and commitment in that game.
Inconsistency, basic skill errors, and the inexperience of some of our kids are REASONS for our present position not EXCUSES. All of this can, and will be fixed! This Coach means business, and I'm SO excited about the next few seasons!!! Lets do ourselves a favour, and lets go to the game this week, to simply see the footy, enjoy a game wiithout any pressure and make a pledge to be back ready to rock NEXT year!!!!!
God I love this club!!!!!! GO SAINTSGOSAINTSGOSAINTSGOSAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol:
Always love your enthusiasm jiggingsaint.

However, all you described is why we weren't good enough this year. Yes we ran some teams close and yes we were competitive in almost every game we played. But the cold reality is when games were on the line, we couldn't win them. If that happened once or twice a year you'd say a bit of luck could have helped us - we didn't win one close game as far as I can remember. That to me says there was something fundamentally wrong with what we were doing this year. The fact that we were competitive in just about every game we played in says we are doing something fundamentally right as well. I enjoyed the year, considering where we finished. I too couldn't question the players effort this year, which at the end of the day, is all we can really ask - the rest is just a bonus.


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Re: "It ain't over till it's over"

Post: # 1256575Post thejiggingsaint »

I don't think we're a million miles apart in our assessments Moods. I can see where you're coming from, and as you say, we lost a few close ones, which of course the "good" sides usually win. I'm definitely NOT wearing the proverbial "rose-coloured" ones when I say that we are on the ground floor of a major elevation in our clubs fortunes. Cold hard facts make me believe this. For the first time in years we have a crop of keen, talented youngsters who, with the guidance of guys like Lenny, Roo, Dal, etc etc can take us back to contention VERY soon! The other factor is the attitude of the coach and list manager to the task in hand; no big noting, no promises, no hype just quietly determined to IMPROVE! Now honestly, why would one NOT be excited at the prospect of following the Saints into the next 3-5 seasons???


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